thats what happens when you waste high picks on crap
also losing cherepanov set us back. he would have been special.
this organization is paying the price for having very few homegrown impact forwards pan out. we have lots of bottom 6 types. not many top 6 guys in the last 5 years.
ive said this for ever, we have quantity not quality. were like the old soviet army. lots of tanks to go to battle with. enormous numerical advantage but half dont work, the ones that do move, cant compete with the usa armor. same thing.
we need a huge dose of talent in this organization and we drafted dylan freekin mcilrath.....
I agree we are a team lacking high end offensive skill. Its a joke that we passed up drafting Tarasenko, a pure goal scorer or a smooth skating pmd in Fowler.
I think everyone agrees that it's ultimately Sather's fault. However, he's going nowhere, so the discussion shifts to, "What is wrong with the team, other than Sather?"
I have no axe to grind. And my issues with what Tortorella has done aren't limited to this injury-riddled season. I thought last year's team was eminently capable of making the playoffs. Without question. And we didn't. I'm still irritated by his behavior during our painful collapse against Washington the season prior. It's not as if I decided over the past 2 months that I hate Tortorella and he's an awful coach. I do not hate him, nor is he awful. Nor is this dissatisfaction limited to recent history.
I find many of his lineup decisions to be questionable, in terms of who plays and who sits. Gilroy/MDZ over Eminger has been the biggest head-scratcher for me of the past decade. The same can be said for his seemingly arbitrary in-game decisions as to who gets increased/decreased TOI. His job is to get the best out of the players on the team, and too often I think he fails to do so.
I'm not freaking out, either. I'm past that. But I am very disappointed. I look at our roster, with Gaborik and Drury providing nothing, and I still think we're capable of earning a playoff spot in the East. I felt the same way last season. And now, we're going to miss out for the second consecutive year. That's not acceptable. To me, anyway. And no, I'm not surprised. When we all predict a finish somewhere between 6 and 10, this season shouldn't be a surprise...but it is on the low end of expectations. For the second consecutive year.
All of this is exactly EXACTLY exactly what I'm saying. Perfectly.
I agree with everything. There's no one who can convince me that this roster as well as last years wasn't capable of making a playoff spot.
Many of the decisions that I believe have cost this team games are the exact things you mention: TOI for certain players (or lack thereof) and who is scratched.
These are things that are DIRECTLY tied to the coach. He's the only one who makes those decisions.
He has been a DISASTER in his tenure here when it comes to these.
And when things are this close in the standings you can't mess those up.
First
I am no big Torts fan. At all.
But I do not feel firing him at this point would serve any given purpose.
He has his pros & cons. More cons than pros imo, but that is beyond the point. The constant lines juggling, the abhorrent PP, the icetime appropriations, not getting the most out of certain players, the constantly being tactically outcoached and the double morale (Washington) are issues that irritate.The main flaw is that when the team is totally intact, which it basically never has been, it plays a hockey that does not produce desired results. When everyone was injured & half of Hartford/Conneticut was up in NYC - the team was getting points. With or without their only elite scorer. Because they were underdogs not expected to produce results. And they battled their way to victory. The beginning of the year - they bullied their way over opponents. It worked for a while. And Torts seemed like the right guy to lead these Underdogs & kids to victory.
When most of the "key" injured players returned, bigger responsibility and icetime was given back to them. And this somehow disrupted the chemistry and instead of winning we started losing one-goal games heartbreakers that lead to many many frustrated NYR fans posting some crazy stuff on these boards. It seems like this shift was not at all tactically followed up (no - trading Roszival was not the reason for us losing or Phoenix winning...) and our PP has not been bettered. That is not entirely the coaches responsibility, but there is something bigger in the whole concept that is missing.
First an overbearing bully hockey, then injuries & underdog overacheiving, now MEH, nothing really. What signifies the team now? Dump and chase, lots of perimeter shots and usually dominating SOG statistics, some weak goals against (I am not blaming Hank at all as I think he is in a fix here - he could however play the angles better and come outta the net better - as some posters have emphasized) by the leagues highest paid keeper, more injuries and no sense of direction or leadership. This is imo partially a youth thing, but if nobody on the ice is stepping up & taking charge saying "letīs do this - this skid ENDS NOW!", the coach damn well better do it. I think Drury should have been stripped of his captaincy long ago and someone else given the chance to provide leadership. That definitely falls on Torts. This team needs identity. Now!
If we miss the PO:s, get rid of Drury, retain RFAs, sign Richards and still are not producing come midterm next year, pink slip is in order for Torts. Renney got fired producing far better results. And I was advocating firing him. But if all the tools are there - which they really are not now but might be next year - and the coach still cannot produce results - Adios Senor....
Slather should have been gone long ago - but that is an entirely different story...
Who were the players that contributed most to this teams success for most of the year?
And who are the players that are being limited the most ice time wise now?
Another poster posted the same thing a few pages back but he's absolutely right.
Torts has gotten away from the players who got us here.
He's continued to hurt the blue line by putting Gilroy in the lineup night in and night out. We saw it again last night. Gilroy spitting the bit.
The amount of ice time and who plays is directly attributed to the coach.
He's been horrible with it, and for some reason seems to have fortten everything he's preached about identity and the players who invoke that.
Dubi & Cally I think had the biggest impact early season. They have not been the same since injured. Cally has been closer to his early season perfomance than Dubi.
MZA was NOT playing early season. Neither was Prospal.
The Gilroy ice time is clearly questionable. And Rozy is gone.
Again, valid points. But some of the players who WERE playing a lot early in the season are STILL playing a lot. so....?
Where are you all you injury and youth excuse machines?
I'd like to hear how it's possible the Devils have been the best team in the league for several months now since Lemaire took over and actually coached them.
Their injuries have been pretty brutal.
Their defense is better than ours? That's laughable.
Funny what a coach can actually accomplish when he coaches.
Devils best players have been their best players. Look at what Kovalchuck has done lately, Rolston, Elias, etc. Their forward group is better than the Rangers, that's fact.
Not only that but the system that is used by the Devils is a chance reducing system that stifles offense, they rely on the big play (top end talent) to win them games. When you limit your opponents to a GPG of well under 2 and get timely scoring from your best players -- you'll win games.
Tortorellas system is not that far different in all honesty, but our best players have simply not been our best players consistently. Where is Gaborik? Where is Dubinsky, 3 goals in 24 games? It's really that simple.
Dubi & Cally I think had the biggest impact early season. They have not been the same since injured. Cally has been closer to his early season perfomance than Dubi.
MZA was NOT playing early season. Neither was Prospal.
The Gilroy ice time is clearly questionable. And Rozy is gone.
Again, valid points. But some of the players who WERE playing a lot early in the season are STILL playing a lot. so....?
Boyle and Prust led this team all year.
Now they're taking a back burner to EC and Prospal.
The Wolski-MZA-Stepan line that everyone (especially our coach) seems to love really has just been Stepan. Kid is good and shows it night after night.
Avery gets 30 seconds of ice time in certain periods when this team needs to make things happen. Prust gets 11 minutes last night? Less than Fedotenko?
I understand the counter argument people will make. But these are the players who have gotten us to this point. They are the identity of this team.
The head coach is the one who is making those decisions and they have been head scratching to say the least.
Gilroy's ice time isn't questionable. The fact that he's been in the lineup is what's questionable. He has cost us how many games? He killed us again last night.
I don't think Dubi and Cally have been as bad as others seem to. They're doing what they normally do. When have either of those two every really been finishers/goal scorers?
I agree with a lot of what you said in that last post rob. The players have not been great lately. Can Tortorella really sit Fedetenko, Prospal, et al if they are healthy? Probably not, but I do agree he should limit their minutes. That is one thing I definitely agree with you on.
Devils best players have been their best players. Look at what Kovalchuck has done lately, Rolston, Elias, etc. Their forward group is better than the Rangers, that's fact.
Not only that but the system that is used by the Devils is a chance reducing system that stifles offense, they rely on the big play (top end talent) to win them games. When you limit your opponents to a GPG of well under 2 and get timely scoring from your best players -- you'll win games.
Tortorellas system is not that far different in all honesty, but our best players have simply not been our best players consistently. Where is Gaborik? Where is Dubinsky, 3 goals in 24 games? It's really that simple.
The system is the coach's. Torts just likes his losing system?
Their forward group really isn't great right now. Kovalchuk has played better. Lemaire should get a ton of credit for that, just ask Kovalchuck.
Does our coach deserve no blame for not getting the most out of our best players?
Anyone who thinks that he's handled Gaborik correctly is a fool.
All Gabby ever asked for was consistent linemates and Torts never gave him that once. I'm not absolving criticism from Gaborik in any way.
Torts isn't to blame for his players not performing, and Lemaire gets no credit for getting the most out of his.
Zajac has 9 goals. Zubrus 25 points. Rolston 23. Arnott had 24.
You really want to try and argue that their forwards are that great?
Their defense is made up of who exactly? And yet they play excellent every single night with Mark Fayne's and Andy Green's out there.
I wonder how bad the Devils would be if Torts ran the show there.
I don't think it's that surprising that we're in a playoff spot. For the first half of the season we were playing at or above reasonable expectations, while a whole slew of other teams in the East were absolutely atrocious. We were able to establish ourselves a decent cushion. Our current playoff position has just as much to do with the failures of the teams currently behind us as it does with what we did early on. IMO.
Been sayin that since December. When some were saying things like "we're in a comfortable playoff position, who could possibly catch us?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Drago
The players respond to Torts. They play hard for him and this is the first season in sometime that you can witness this team growing together. If we fire him now who knows how long it will take to get the team on the right track. We aren't playing terrible hockey, just cant find the back of the net. When you constantly out shoot your opponent and out work them it isnt the coaches fault. Everyone just calm down we'll be ok.
The Vets have not responded well to Torts at all this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2
I think everyone agrees that it's ultimately Sather's fault. However, he's going nowhere, so the discussion shifts to, "What is wrong with the team, other than Sather?"
I have no axe to grind. And my issues with what Tortorella has done aren't limited to this injury-riddled season. I thought last year's team was eminently capable of making the playoffs. Without question. And we didn't. I'm still irritated by his behavior during our painful collapse against Washington the season prior. It's not as if I decided over the past 2 months that I hate Tortorella and he's an awful coach. I do not hate him, nor is he awful. Nor is this dissatisfaction limited to recent history.
I find many of his lineup decisions to be questionable, in terms of who plays and who sits. Gilroy/MDZ over Eminger has been the biggest head-scratcher for me of the past decade. The same can be said for his seemingly arbitrary in-game decisions as to who gets increased/decreased TOI. His job is to get the best out of the players on the team, and too often I think he fails to do so.
I'm not freaking out, either. I'm past that. But I am very disappointed. I look at our roster, with Gaborik and Drury providing nothing, and I still think we're capable of earning a playoff spot in the East. I felt the same way last season. And now, we're going to miss out for the second consecutive year. That's not acceptable. To me, anyway. And no, I'm not surprised. When we all predict a finish somewhere between 6 and 10, this season shouldn't be a surprise...but it is on the low end of expectations. For the second consecutive year.
Agreed, good stuff.
Also, the time and circumstance is never discussed. The failure of so many teams in the East opened doors for us. The only time I felt injury made us huge underdogs has been of late with Staal out. Staal and Gabby's injuries should scare all Ranger fans right now. Staal cause he's an impact Dman and Gabby cause we're likely to see seasons like this from here on out with his injury history and yet another Slats cap hit that will come in question.
But sleep well Glen Slats Sather, no one beats you, you'll always be the worst signing in Ranger history
The system is the coach's. Torts just likes his losing system?
Their forward group really isn't great right now. Kovalchuk has played better. Lemaire should get a ton of credit for that, just ask Kovalchuck.
Does our coach deserve no blame for not getting the most out of our best players?
Anyone who thinks that he's handled Gaborik correctly is a fool.
All Gabby ever asked for was consistent linemates and Torts never gave him that once. I'm not absolving criticism from Gaborik in any way.
Torts isn't to blame for his players not performing, and Lemaire gets no credit for getting the most out of his.
Zajac has 9 goals. Zubrus 25 points. Rolston 23. Arnott had 24.
You really want to try and argue that their forwards are that great?
Their defense is made up of who exactly? And yet they play excellent every single night with Mark Fayne's and Andy Green's out there.
I wonder how bad the Devils would be if Torts ran the show there.
Where to start....
How is Torts system a losing system? Are the Rangers a terrible team? Have they not faced adversity this season? People like to pretend that injuries, inexperience, etc do not make a difference but they do. They strip away consistency for one and weaken the team for two.
The Devils forward group during their run has been excellent, look at Elias, Kovalchuk, etc during their winning streak, look at Buffalo, Stafford has 10 goals this month, Vanek woke up from his coma, Myers as well. Was Ruff employing a different system in the beginning and end of the year? Don't think so. It's the players and their overall ability to adjust in that adversity.
Kovalchuk heaps praise onto Lemaire and for good reason, they are winning. The same system had existed for years in NJ and the players are comfortable in it. MacLean attempted to chance the organizations philosophy and threw out years of organizational structure.
Tortorella deserves some blame for some of his choices, including line changes but at the same time with injuries he has been forced to change lines and at times found chemistry in unique combinations, It's hard to keep lines together when there is a rotating group of available players. Even if he does and they don't produce, should he still stick with them?
So did he handle Gaborik correctly last season? Many would say so, but what is he doing different than last season? Gaborik has missed significant time and lets be honest, even if healthy has no one to play with consistently. Prospal? EC?
When did Gaborik say this "I want to play with the same line mates" -- find me a quote.
Lemaire gets credit for sure, but not that much from me. He simply reverted to the Devils typical philosophy. Those players learn that in the minors and the players already there sure as hell know it.
The Rangers are in the process or building that familiarity in the system and it takes time. Patience is a virtue. This particular crop of players might be the experiment and as the system develops, the talent and results should improve.
Yes. The Devils forwards are better than the Rangers forwards. Most of their stats were abysmal in the start of the season and it showed in the standings. Lately they have performed to their talent level, look at their last 20 games.
The personnel on D makes no difference if your forwards back check. It's really easy to make someone like Mottau (not there but) look decent when he only has to worry about his gap and keeping players to the outside because he has help from the forwards in the back.
Why do you act shocked about the Devils, they HAVE been doing THIS for years. Maclean was a speed bump in the organizations history.
Hypothetical questions aren't really serving a purpose here, but assuming Lou hired him -- he'd be doing what the Devils wanted him to do -- that is "business as usual"
How is Torts system a losing system? Are the Rangers a terrible team? Have they not faced adversity this season? People like to pretend that injuries, inexperience, etc do not make a difference but they do. They strip away consistency for one and weaken the team for two.
The Devils forward group during their run has been excellent, look at Elias, Kovalchuk, etc during their winning streak, look at Buffalo, Stafford has 10 goals this month, Vanek woke up from his coma, Myers as well. Was Ruff employing a different system in the beginning and end of the year? Don't think so. It's the players and their overall ability to adjust in that adversity.
Kovalchuk heaps praise onto Lemaire and for good reason, they are winning. The same system had existed for years in NJ and the players are comfortable in it. MacLean attempted to chance the organizations philosophy and threw out years of organizational structure.
Tortorella deserves some blame for some of his choices, including line changes but at the same time with injuries he has been forced to change lines and at times found chemistry in unique combinations, It's hard to keep lines together when there is a rotating group of available players. Even if he does and they don't produce, should he still stick with them?
So did he handle Gaborik correctly last season? Many would say so, but what is he doing different than last season? Gaborik has missed significant time and lets be honest, even if healthy has no one to play with consistently. Prospal? EC?
When did Gaborik say this "I want to play with the same line mates" -- find me a quote.
Lemaire gets credit for sure, but not that much from me. He simply reverted to the Devils typical philosophy. Those players learn that in the minors and the players already there sure as hell know it.
The Rangers are in the process or building that familiarity in the system and it takes time. Patience is a virtue. This particular crop of players might be the experiment and as the system develops, the talent and results should improve.
Yes. The Devils forwards are better than the Rangers forwards. Most of their stats were abysmal in the start of the season and it showed in the standings. Lately they have performed to their talent level, look at their last 20 games.
The personnel on D makes no difference if your forwards back check. It's really easy to make someone like Mottau (not there but) look decent when he only has to worry about his gap and keeping players to the outside because he has help from the forwards in the back.
Why do you act shocked about the Devils, they HAVE been doing THIS for years. Maclean was a speed bump in the organizations history.
Hypothetical questions aren't really serving a purpose here, but assuming Lou hired him -- he'd be doing what the Devils wanted him to do -- that is "business as usual"
Completely agree with everything above... A lot of people are comparing us to other teams like it's apples to oranges... When you scrutinize the rosters, experience, and depth, it's quite evident we are not similar to any of the teams we're being compared to.
No they're certainly not... Dubi's career high is 44 points.. How does that make him one of the better left wingers in the entire league? Wolski is inconsistent... He has 13 points in 23 games, that would put him on pace for just 46 points over an 82 game season... How does taht make either of these guys some of the better left wings in the league???
We have ONE first line forward, and he's often injured and has been slumping the entire year... How is that not a problem? We don't have a true 2nd line center yet either... Stepan is a wet behind the ears rookie who's still learning the pro game... He's inconsistent, and that's to be expected...
-How many other teams in the league have the youngest defense? None...
-How many other teams in the league vying for a playoff spot only have one first line forward?
-How many other teams in the league have no first line center or experienced 2nd line center?
-How many other teams in the league with a similar roster as the Rangers have lost 280+ man games due to injury and are still holding a playoff spot?
Your analysis of our roster depth is way off... This team is extremely young and inexperienced... You cannot discount what experience does for a roster...
-Our 2nd pairing on defense is comprised of two rookies
-Our best 2 Centers have a combined 2 years NHL experience
Injuries, no depth, little experience, lots of first year players.... Good luck pinning this on our head coach.... Talk to the man upstairs...
Dubinsky scored 44 points in 69 games as a 24 year old and improves every season. Wolski recorded 65 points last year if hes not a top 6 left winger i don't know what is. How many teams in the nhl have two left wingers that can pot over 50 points?
Rookies have nothing to do with it... Our rookies are our best players. Matt Duchene has 1 year of nhl experience what's your point. What is this experience you speak of? Chris Drury? ....I like our group of defense, especially with the addition of McCabe... A ranking came out on hockeybuzz a couple weeks ago before the addition of McCabe. They asked GM's around the NHL who has the best defense and got them to rank them. Rangers were ranked 13th. With the addition of McCabe I believe they are a top 10.
With a top 10 defense and a top goaltender and decent forward depth, we should make the playoffs.
Coaches get the most out of their players. Is tortorella getting the most out of gaborik, avery, drury? I don't think so. I think these guys could excell under a new regime. The players that are excelling are those that are fighting for contracts and have to put up with tortorella's bull ****.
Lastly, I don't like how Tortorella iterates the same thing every interview. He states that the Rangers are not a talented team and they have to grind their way through each game. The players hate playing for coaches that downgrade their accomplishments and make the coach a glory hound. He annoys me.
If Tortorella gets this team in the playoffs that's more magic than a Harry Potter movie.
Folks wanna throw him under the bus for having the youngest D in the NHL and the rest of a team of 3rd and 4th liners.
If Gabby is having a normal season it's not even a discussion.
Six months ago, I was ready to fire Torts' because I thought he was the wrong coach for a yong team. I was wrong. He's been patient, positive and generally done a good job despite some very difficult circumstances. Remember, many of the "veterans" on this team - Prospal, Eminger, Drury, Avery, Christiensen have contributed next to nothing this year. Sather needs to weed out some players and add a couple of key veterans to go with a very good young core. Torts gets one more year with a better cast. The expectation next year will be very high.
Where are you all you injury and youth excuse machines?
I'd like to hear how it's possible the Devils have been the best team in the league for several months now since Lemaire took over and actually coached them.
Their injuries have been pretty brutal.
Their defense is better than ours? That's laughable.
Funny what a coach can actually accomplish when he coaches.
The players respond to Torts. They play hard for him and this is the first season in sometime that you can witness this team growing together. If we fire him now who knows how long it will take to get the team on the right track. We aren't playing terrible hockey, just cant find the back of the net. When you constantly out shoot your opponent and out work them it isnt the coaches fault. Everyone just calm down we'll be ok.
Are you saying they will not play hard for the next coach, Bob Hartley for example?
The system is the coach's. Torts just likes his losing system?
Their forward group really isn't great right now. Kovalchuk has played better. Lemaire should get a ton of credit for that, just ask Kovalchuck.
Does our coach deserve no blame for not getting the most out of our best players?
Anyone who thinks that he's handled Gaborik correctly is a fool.
All Gabby ever asked for was consistent linemates and Torts never gave him that once. I'm not absolving criticism from Gaborik in any way.
Torts isn't to blame for his players not performing, and Lemaire gets no credit for getting the most out of his.
Zajac has 9 goals. Zubrus 25 points. Rolston 23. Arnott had 24.
You really want to try and argue that their forwards are that great?
Their defense is made up of who exactly? And yet they play excellent every single night with Mark Fayne's and Andy Green's out there.
I wonder how bad the Devils would be if Torts ran the show there.
yea anyone who disagrees with you is a fool!! If the line Gaborik was on wasn't producing you would be complaining (especially if the team is losing) that he doesn't mix up the lines enough.
If Tortorella gets this team in the playoffs that's more magic than a Harry Potter movie.
Folks wanna throw him under the bus for having the youngest D in the NHL and the rest of a team of 3rd and 4th liners.
If Gabby is having a normal season it's not even a discussion.
Torts deserves an extension.
Stop making valid points when everyone else hates Tortorella. Don't ask why you're wrong, you're wrong.
Our PK is 13th in NHL, when it should be in the top 5 if the coach plays his cards right and has 3 pairs of forwards that can kill penalties. The refusal to use Avery on the PK even with many injuries was very big mistake. Using defensemen like Gilroy and Del Zotto on the PK is a big mistake, relying on them at all was a big mistake.
Sather made some big mistakes in the past, but lately he has mostly been good. Yes he is to blame for our Cap trouble, but we had enough cap space with all the injuries to be able to get another veteran defenseman to help, but Tortorella seems to be very happy with Gilroy.
Six months ago, I was ready to fire Torts' because I thought he was the wrong coach for a yong team. I was wrong. He's been patient, positive and generally done a good job despite some very difficult circumstances. Remember, many of the "veterans" on this team - Prospal, Eminger, Drury, Avery, Christiensen have contributed next to nothing this year. Sather needs to weed out some players and add a couple of key veterans to go with a very good young core. Torts gets one more year with a better cast. The expectation next year will be very high.
Eminger contributed next to nothing?
Look at our record with him in the lineup. Look at his hits and shots blocked.
And Avery, how was he supposed to contribute when Tortorella gives him such limited icetime with a bunch of garbage linemates?
