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Is it REALLY just the scoring??????

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Old
03-04-2011, 01:30 PM
  #51
patnyrnyg
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Originally Posted by mrjimmyg89 View Post

Eliminate our +6 against Edmonton and Washington and the +7 from the other Washington game, a total of +19. Our total team differential is a +3 on the SEASON.
OK, and I indicated how many games Pitt and Wash have scored 6+. Eliminate those totals and they are in the same boat in terms of goal scoring, but not in the standings. Hell, take away the Caps big outburst games and their differential is NEGATIVE FOR THE SEASON. Yet, they are in 5th place in the conference.

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03-04-2011, 01:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Blue Line Monster View Post

I don't really understand what argument you're trying to make in general here. The team is one of the best in GAA but has been one of the worst in scoring goals. Hank has some of the best and most consistent numbers since the lockout, while being on mostly bad teams. He's probably stolen the most games of any goalie for his team in that time. Obviously there's no concrete stat here but the Sabremetrics-like article about him facing and stopping the hardest chances of any goalie seems to back this up.

In the recent player voting , he was voted by the players to be the 4th hardest goalie in the league to score on.

My point here, he's not the problem. I know in your last thread, you tried to use Tort's comments when Hank was slumping as some kind of proof he's not a good goaltender. Did you hear Tort's post game last night? The problem is scoring. Torts even acknowledged that the team puts Hank in a bad spot where he cant ever make a mistake or the team loses.

Again, for your stats I don't know why you'd use total goals for. Why don't you calculate the last 20 or so games and compare it to other teams. Pretty much 2 or less goals every game.
The point is, people on here especially want to blame it all on a lack of goal scoring. I point out that two teams who are ahead of us are having the same problems with consistent goal scoring, yet they are able to overcome it and are legit contenders to come out of the East.

If you want to talk last 20 games, let's look at the Devils. They have scored 21 goals in their last 10 games, and have won 9 of those games. Point is, even with inconsistent scoring, you can still win games ala the Pens and Caps.

First two seasons in the league he was stealing games left and right. Not so much this year or since. Even last season, they didn't win one single game after Jan 1st when they scored 2 goals or less. The ONLY team in the top-9 in the east to do so. Even the Caps won 2 games and had a SO/OT loss when scoring 2 or less. With the exception of the Caps, they had the fewest points in that scenarion amongst the top-9 as they did have a bunch of SO/OT losses. Even the hot streak at the end last year, they scored 4+ in every win. Not once did he steal them points down the stretch that would have gotten them into the play-offs.

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03-04-2011, 01:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
So, Theodore didn't make some sick saves to steal the game? While Lundqvist faced 3 good shots all game and they all went in.

Like I have shown (unless you just read the thread title), the Caps and Pens have scored similar amounts, had the same problem with inconsistency and low-scoring games, yet are securely in play-off spots.
They were "sick" saves because the Rangers cannot finish. It is more than coincidence over this stretch of games that EVERY goaltender we face is hot.

Put Briere that tight in and he'll lift it over Theodore's stick. Carter and Giroux on the two one one, I guarantee you they at least register a SHOT.

Are these goalies playing that well or are the Rangers making it that easy on them? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that every goaltender the Rangers face are Dominik Hasek in their prime having a grade A night.

Lundqvist is a 2.36GAA and a .920SV%
Fleury is a 2.37GAA and a .917SV%
Neuvirth is a 2.48GAA and a .913SV%

It isn't Lundqvist. He's done fine. His numbers prove it. Has he been up and down since the break? Yeah, but he isn't the reason they're on the cusp of being eliminated from the playoffs.

You know what it comes down to? In a 2-1 game it comes down to a player on the Rangers, time and time again, failing to come up with the BIG play. We don't have a player like the Capitals do (Ovechkin / Semin) who can come up with the big play, when it is important, to win the game. The Rangers don't have the players who the Penguins have (Crosby) who can come up with the big play when it matters. And lets face it, the Penguins record with and without Crosby is a testament as to how much of a big game player he is. That's the difference. When the game is on the line for us we send out Dubinsky and Callahan. Like... Really?

Do you remember the first 50-games of the season? Lundqvist kept us in a ton of games. Stole us games. There was one point he was in the top-5 in every statistical category for goaltending. Sure, he's had a recent slump and has been inconsistent lately but that doesn't change the fact that he was lights out for a large portion of the season.

Look at the Penguins, Fleury completely BLEW the first 20-games of the season, a worse slump then Henrik had all season, and the Penguins were able to win games because they had the big time player who can score the big time goal when he had to. Thats the difference and there is no statistic that you can look at for that. Only observation.

And to me, that comes down to talent. We simply don't have players who are as talented as Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Green or Crosby and Malkin.


Last edited by Fataldogg: 03-04-2011 at 02:03 PM.
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03-04-2011, 01:59 PM
  #54
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So, had Lundqvist been invincible; 0-0 against New Jersey, 2-0 against Philly, 1-0 against Tampa, 2-0 against Buffalo, and 1-0 against Minnesota would have been fine? I fail to see how any goalie would have fared better.

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03-04-2011, 02:01 PM
  #55
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It also comes down to constantly being a goal down and having to take chances because you can't score. You could feel the entire building letting down as soon as the Wild scored their first goal.

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03-04-2011, 02:03 PM
  #56
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Our top scorer is 74th in the league in points(Dubi)....Hank is consitently top 10 in all goalie stats.
If this team had more skill up front like every other team in the league,wins wouldn't be a problem.Get it through your thick skull,Hank is not perfect and he hasn't been great since the break,but he does give the team a chance to win every night.If the team can't score more than 2 goals most nights,the problem is on them.
Like mentioned before,the Rangers are 2nd behind Boston in goals allowed per game...and you think the problem is Lundqvist,Give your head a shake.

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03-04-2011, 02:12 PM
  #57
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The defense is loisng too many guys down low. Gilroy is the biggest offender but others have been having the same problem. Staal's injury really hurt.

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03-04-2011, 03:16 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Rangers power play is 16.5%, Pens is 17.5%, Caps is 16.0. Caps have 35 power play goals Rangers have 39, Pens have 44. League average is 42. Really not that much of a difference. 22%? Considering the league average is 18, I would say 22 would be pretty phenomenal. Why not ask for 30%?
I just made a long post and lost it, but look at the stats again.

The Rangers have been trailing in 34 games this season by 1 goal or more after the first period. They have only won 12 of those games - 3 in the shootout, so lets generously say 9. That's 25 (22) or 50 (44) points the team lost out on because they did not score first.

The Rangers have had 30 1-goal games, most in the league except Anaheim, and have won 17, 4 by shootout, so 13 wins. The Rangers have a winning percentage of only 50% and 33% in games where they score 1 or 2 goals and a 66% winning percentage when scoring three or more.

Those are some sketchy offensive numbers.

Bottom line: Rangers do not have the offensive talent to win close games - that go to guy (Ovechkin, Crosby, Semin, Backstrom, Malkin, Letang, Green, Lecavlier, Richards, Pronger, Stamkos, St Louis, Parise, Kovalchuk, etc) just about everyone else in the division has.

Gaborik not so much this season.... look at some recent NJ Devils games, can't score, but who shows up and gets the big goal -- Kovalchuk. Down by a goal against the Rangers, Crosby makes some sick pass to Mike Rupp who ties it up -- Crosby gets it done, 5-on-3 PP Tampa can't score 5-on-4 or 5-on-5 here comes Lecavlier with a snipe in the top shelf....

Maybe we should see what Jacques Lemaire is doing eh? The trap will win us games!

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03-04-2011, 03:20 PM
  #59
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No, Hank is off as well.

The puck is bouncing off of him like a damn grenade into the slot, and you can tell he's fighting it.

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03-04-2011, 03:33 PM
  #60
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=555003

Rangers scored approx: 3 GPG in the beginning of the season, now less than 2 GPG (post ASG) -- yeah it's not the scoring though

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03-04-2011, 03:35 PM
  #61
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No, Hank is off as well.

The puck is bouncing off of him like a damn grenade into the slot, and you can tell he's fighting it.
Who cares if he is off? We aren't losing these games 5-4 where our defense and goaltending are letting us down. The offense is the issue, and it will always be when dealing with players lacking NHL experience. Our current top 6 forwards:

Dubi, Cally, Step, Wolski, Zuccarello, Anisimov

Are all young or lacking NHL experience. 2 rookies in your current top 6. That smells of inconsistency. We need Dubi, Cally, and Wolski to play like 1st liners when the reality is they are 2nd liners. Then people complain about Anisimov and forget he is just getting to his 150th game in his career. People complain about Zuccarello cause he isn't producing, but the guy has played all of 30 games in the NHL.

Hopefully Gaborik can come back with some sort of a spark and play consistent, because this group of top 6, although talented, lacks experience and a true goal scorer. I wouldn't separate Dubinsky from Callahan and Anisimov as they have been the best line the last couple games. When Gaborik comes back, he needs to play with Wolski and Stepan, not "I show up every 10 games" Christensen and "Father Time" Prospal. Torts is priding himself on the youth of the team, well, lets see over the last 16 games what Step and Wolski can do with a sniper on their line.

EDIT: And don't give me that ******** that our best player needs to pick the team up. Hank has picked this team up so many times it's redundant to even mention it. How about the offense pick him up a little bit and make it a little less difficult to get him some more W's

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03-04-2011, 03:38 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=555003

Rangers scored approx: 3 GPG in the beginning of the season, now less than 2 GPG (post ASG) -- yeah it's not the scoring though
It's Neil Smith with a hoodoo-voodoo Louisiana Lundqvist doll causing glare precisely at the moment of deflection.

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03-04-2011, 03:42 PM
  #63
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We can't score and Hank has not been elite. Don't give me overall numbers. We were good in the beginning and bad recently. What's the current trend, because that's what put us where we are today?

He's played 15 games since January 20th. We've lost 9 of those. In those 9 losses, his save percentage was greater than 90% twice. His save percentage in all of the 15 games has been higher than 90% only 5 times. That is not elite. Not sure that's even above average.

He is not to blame for all of this. Scoring goals hides alot of blemishes. But Hank is making a solid contribution to the recent problems.

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03-04-2011, 03:55 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by mrjimmyg89 View Post
Who cares if he is off? We aren't losing these games 5-4 where our defense and goaltending are letting us down. The offense is the issue, and it will always be when dealing with players lacking NHL experience. Our current top 6 forwards:

Dubi, Cally, Step, Wolski, Zuccarello, Anisimov

Are all young or lacking NHL experience. 2 rookies in your current top 6. That smells of inconsistency. We need Dubi, Cally, and Wolski to play like 1st liners when the reality is they are 2nd liners. Then people complain about Anisimov and forget he is just getting to his 150th game in his career. People complain about Zuccarello cause he isn't producing, but the guy has played all of 30 games in the NHL.

Hopefully Gaborik can come back with some sort of a spark and play consistent, because this group of top 6, although talented, lacks experience and a true goal scorer. I wouldn't separate Dubinsky from Callahan and Anisimov as they have been the best line the last couple games. When Gaborik comes back, he needs to play with Wolski and Stepan, not "I show up every 10 games" Christensen and "Father Time" Prospal. Torts is priding himself on the youth of the team, well, lets see over the last 16 games what Step and Wolski can do with a sniper on their line.

EDIT: And don't give me that ******** that our best player needs to pick the team up. Hank has picked this team up so many times it's redundant to even mention it. How about the offense pick him up a little bit and make it a little less difficult to get him some more W's
I'm not saying he's the lone player at fault, or even that the goaltending is the sole reason for the recent 4-10-1 slide. It certainly does not help, though.

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03-04-2011, 04:00 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by mostly a reader View Post
We can't score and Hank has not been elite. Don't give me overall numbers. We were good in the beginning and bad recently. What's the current trend, because that's what put us where we are today?

He's played 15 games since January 20th. We've lost 9 of those. In those 9 losses, his save percentage was greater than 90% twice. His save percentage in all of the 15 games has been higher than 90% only 5 times. That is not elite. Not sure that's even above average.

He is not to blame for all of this. Scoring goals hides alot of blemishes. But Hank is making a solid contribution to the recent problems.
Sure Hank is a part of it, but again its not the main problem. He doesn't need to be traded, the Rangers wouldn't be better off with another goaltender, etc. That is what people take exception to.

Again, scoring first and adding to that lead will resolve a majority of these problems. It's why the Capitals crash and burned in the playoffs, harder to score and didn't have that defensive ability -- now that they do and still have that offensive talent to win them close games, I think they go places this year.

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03-04-2011, 04:45 PM
  #66
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The Pens and Caps have winning % of over 90% when they score 3 or more goals. The Rangers have 24 wins out of 33 (73%) in 3+ goal efforts, which is the lowest % among the Top 10 teams in the Eastern Conference, often by a wide margin.

Combine with this the fact that only the Devils, Senators and Panthers have fewer 3+ goal games than the Rangers (tied with Isles) in the EC and it'd be hard to expect a stellar season.

Yes, the goaltending obviously allowed even more goals in those games but again, the Rangers were outSCORED.

If you want to put the team possibly missing the playoffs on the goaltending rather than scoring, why not just extend that all the way to the Cup? If Lundqvist could only play "like he should" all the time, the Rangers would almost never lose, right? Just like how goaltending 'lost' the series to the Caps in '09...

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03-04-2011, 05:21 PM
  #67
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The Pens and Caps have winning % of over 90% when they score 3 or more goals. The Rangers have 24 wins out of 33 (73%) in 3+ goal efforts, which is the lowest % among the Top 10 teams in the Eastern Conference, often by a wide margin.

Combine with this the fact that only the Devils, Senators and Panthers have fewer 3+ goal games than the Rangers (tied with Isles) in the EC and it'd be hard to expect a stellar season.

Yes, the goaltending obviously allowed even more goals in those games but again, the Rangers were outSCORED.

If you want to put the team possibly missing the playoffs on the goaltending rather than scoring, why not just extend that all the way to the Cup? If Lundqvist could only play "like he should" all the time, the Rangers would almost never lose, right? Just like how goaltending 'lost' the series to the Caps in '09...


UM....I don't get it. We lose more games than most when we score more than three, but that's because we don't score enough?

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03-04-2011, 05:42 PM
  #68
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UM....I don't get it. We lose more games than most when we score more than three, but that's because we don't score enough?
This issue has been that when we have scored, we only win at a 75% clip. That's on the defense and the goaltending. The fact we have only 33 games where we have over 3 goals is the offense. So, in half our games, we scored 1, 2 or no goals. I'd like to see how many points we have earned in those games. It won't be that high.

It seems like typical Rangers anyway. We almost never have all three parts of our squad rolling together all at once, only in spurts or 2-3 games. Either we are scoring, hank is playing great, but our D is having it rough and hank stops 37 shots, but gives up 3 goals, we score 3, and go to OT and lose in a SO. You gonna blame hank for stopping 92% of the pucks? The offense that put up 3 goals? That's how these teams are rolling off big winning sections of their season (Devils 18-2-2 in their last 22, Sharks 17 outta 20 wins, Vancouver at least getting a point in every game in a span of a month and a half). We don't do that, win 3, lose 2, win 2, lose 4, and so on.

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03-04-2011, 05:52 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by mrjimmyg89 View Post
This issue has been that when we have scored, we only win at a 75% clip. That's on the defense and the goaltending. The fact we have only 33 games where we have over 3 goals is the offense. So, in half our games, we scored 1, 2 or no goals. I'd like to see how many points we have earned in those games. It won't be that high.

It seems like typical Rangers anyway. We almost never have all three parts of our squad rolling together all at once, only in spurts or 2-3 games. Either we are scoring, hank is playing great, but our D is having it rough and hank stops 37 shots, but gives up 3 goals, we score 3, and go to OT and lose in a SO. You gonna blame hank for stopping 92% of the pucks? The offense that put up 3 goals? That's how these teams are rolling off big winning sections of their season (Devils 18-2-2 in their last 22, Sharks 17 outta 20 wins, Vancouver at least getting a point in every game in a span of a month and a half). We don't do that, win 3, lose 2, win 2, lose 4, and so on.
That may seem low, but 75% is about 62-20, which would tie the all time record for wins in a single season. Not half bad to say the least. That goes to show you that scoring is the problem.

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03-04-2011, 05:54 PM
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Why do you insist on bashing Lundqvist? He's the only reason this team was relevant from 08-10.

Anyway, this team has a ton of problems. And out of all those problems, scoring is probably the biggest one.

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03-04-2011, 05:55 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
Why do you insist on bashing Lundqvist? He's the only reason this team was relevant from 08-10.

Anyway, this team has a ton of problems. And out of all those problems, scoring is probably the biggest one.
Probably?

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03-04-2011, 06:03 PM
  #72
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That may seem low, but 75% is about 62-20, which would tie the all time record for wins in a single season. Not half bad to say the least. That goes to show you that scoring is the problem.
Right, so if we did score 3 goals a game with hank in nets we would be a perennial front runner for the cup.

2.61 GF/G is in the bottom half of the league while our 2.40 GA/G is 5th in the league. There are 2 teams within the top 5 of BOTH categories: The Boston Bruins and The Vancouver Canucks. It makes sense. They have 2 of the best goal tending situations in the league (Luongo and Schneider/Thomas and Rask) have great defenses (Chara, Kaberle and CO./ Van top 7 defenders are top 4 on just about ANY other team) and the offensive depth to put it in the net (Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Raymond, etc/ Horton, Bergeron, Lucic etc)

We currently have 2 of those: Great goaltending with Hank and Biron and a young defense that has played some amazing hockey within it's top 4 all year, the bottom 2 is an issue. If we had even .3 GF/G more, halfway to us getting to 3, we would have so many more wins.

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03-04-2011, 06:05 PM
  #73
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The Pens and Caps have winning % of over 90% when they score 3 or more goals. The Rangers have 24 wins out of 33 (73%) in 3+ goal efforts, which is the lowest % among the Top 10 teams in the Eastern Conference, often by a wide margin.

Combine with this the fact that only the Devils, Senators and Panthers have fewer 3+ goal games than the Rangers (tied with Isles) in the EC and it'd be hard to expect a stellar season.

Yes, the goaltending obviously allowed even more goals in those games but again, the Rangers were outSCORED.

If you want to put the team possibly missing the playoffs on the goaltending rather than scoring, why not just extend that all the way to the Cup? If Lundqvist could only play "like he should" all the time, the Rangers would almost never lose, right? Just like how goaltending 'lost' the series to the Caps in '09...
Uhm, I think you are helping to prove my point, but thank you for the unintended support. If the biggest problem is lack of goal support, and how I can't expect Lundqvist to win so many games when they only score 1 or 2 goals, then I would think 3 or more goals should be money in the bank, right?

So, now I add this to my original argument. They are similar in total goals scored. Pens a little more, Caps a little less. They have pretty much the same amount of games of extremely high goal output (6 goals or more), so they all 3 have outliers (remember that from the statistics units) that pad their totals. All 3 have almost the same amount of games when they score 1 or 2 goals. Yet, the Pens and Caps are much better in the standings. Now you helped me to show they both have much higher winning percentages when they score 3+.

So, in summary, it is not Lundqvist's fault when they only score 2. Now, I'd like to hear the excuses for when they lose when scoring 3+. Come on, let's hear it everyone. If he is that good, then he should have a much higher winning percentage when getting goal support.

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03-04-2011, 06:09 PM
  #74
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That may seem low, but 75% is about 62-20, which would tie the all time record for wins in a single season. Not half bad to say the least. That goes to show you that scoring is the problem.
Ok, and like mrjimmy pointed out (I haven't looked up the number to verify his claims, but I trust he is not making them up), that the Caps and Pens are both around 90% win percentage when scoring 3+. By your logic, that should make them about 74-8 for the season. So, obviously NO team is getting 3+ every night.

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03-04-2011, 06:09 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
Why do you insist on bashing Lundqvist? He's the only reason this team was relevant from 08-10.

Anyway, this team has a ton of problems. And out of all those problems, scoring is probably the biggest one.
And this is were the problem lies on this board. From having read pages 1 and 3 of this thread (yeah I'm lazy) no-one IMO is 'bashing Lundqvist'. They are simply saying that he is part of the reason why the Rangers have been losing lately because he is not playing up to his usual standard.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out that Lundqvist is struggling, really there isn't, but every time his name is mentioned and it's not in a positive light this board throws a tizzie. If people were blaming everything on Lundqvist that would be wrong, but saying he's part of poor play across the team shouldn't get people wrapped around the axles like it does.

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