Komisarek was looking very promising at one point, especially in his peak year, and was still young on top of it. Then the Lucic crap happened and he became a joke, swaying everyone's perception of him. Even the biggest Komisarek homer couldn't continue defending him at that point... and then he went to the leafs as the last straw. It does not surprize me at all seeing hab fans talk about him this way now after all is said and done.
As for Tinordi's upside, almost everyone is going on hearsay in this thread. I for one am actually going to watch him tonight so I know what I'm talking about the next time around, I suggest you do the same.
If you thought Komisarek ever had a chance of being the next Scott Stevens (even if only the older offenseless version of Stevens) than I fully understand why you'd not pull the trigger on a Penner for Tinordi+20ish first trade. It's because you tend to overrate habs prospects.
People forget that Stevens put up some pretty good offensive seasons when he was younger. Komisarek never ever came close to have any type of noteworthy offense at the NHL level. He could have aspired to becoming Adam Foote... on his best day... maybe. But even then he was never as good as Adam Foote defensively, or even as mean and feared.
But really, Komisarek was never ever going to become a version of the old Stevens, Lucic thing or not.
Tinordi reminds me of O'byrne when we first drafted him. O'byrne was tooted as a guy who was big, a really good skater, but was 4-5 years away from being a NHL regular. Pretty much all the attributes that Tinordi has.
To me, Tinordi is a lot closer to an eventual O'byrne than Pronger. And there's nothing wrong with that with a 20ish 1st rounder.
It does sound like Gagnon's just trying to justify getting sucked in by the fake twitter.
But stepping aside from the question of whether it was ever actually proposed from either side in real life, and just treating it as a fan proposal, I would probably pass on it from a Habs POV.
I don't really look at Tinordi as having equivalent value to a 1st round pick anymore. He's probably a 2nd-3rd rounder based on his current play, and I would value him accordingly.
That said, our forthcoming 1st round pick is probably something like 18th. 16th-22th-ish. Say. That's the wheelhouse of where we picked Pacioretty, and where we really ought to hope to be able to do something to make up for some other picks we screwed up in that range recently. It's still a player who *should* be an upper-echelon player for the team for many years. With risk. But with potentially high reward as well.
Penner is good, and I think he would have helped us, but it's still just 1 year and a bit from him. And he does add $4M to a cap situation that is already a bit full up front... there would be players let go/un-signed to accommodate adding his cap hit. AK might have been one. Or a good defenseman. So the extra year Penner brings on his contract comes at a cost too.
Bottom line, I wouldn't give up the 1st alone for Penner. The market value for him was higher, clearly, and that's ok. But I'm happy the Habs weren't in the market.
BG sums it up perfectly.
Without the cap to worry about, then perhaps a deal like that could have been feasible, but given the current make up of our roster, adding another 4M$+ top-6 forward doesn't seem feasible unless existing contracts are moved.
aside from that, I get the feeling that Penner would have a tough time in Montreal. He's had consistency and motivation issues in the past, and playing for a coach like Martin in a city like Montreal could be a recipe for disaster.
It does sound like Gagnon's just trying to justify getting sucked in by the fake twitter.
But stepping aside from the question of whether it was ever actually proposed from either side in real life, and just treating it as a fan proposal, I would probably pass on it from a Habs POV.
I don't really look at Tinordi as having equivalent value to a 1st round pick anymore. He's probably a 2nd-3rd rounder based on his current play, and I would value him accordingly.
That said, our forthcoming 1st round pick is probably something like 18th. 16th-22th-ish. Say. That's the wheelhouse of where we picked Pacioretty, and where we really ought to hope to be able to do something to make up for some other picks we screwed up in that range recently. It's still a player who *should* be an upper-echelon player for the team for many years. With risk. But with potentially high reward as well.
Penner is good, and I think he would have helped us, but it's still just 1 year and a bit from him. And he does add $4M to a cap situation that is already a bit full up front... there would be players let go/un-signed to accommodate adding his cap hit. AK might have been one. Or a good defenseman. So the extra year Penner brings on his contract comes at a cost too.
Bottom line, I wouldn't give up the 1st alone for Penner. The market value for him was higher, clearly, and that's ok. But I'm happy the Habs weren't in the market.
A perfectly sensible position on why someone wouldn't want to do the trade.
I still think 1 year + the end of this one and playoffs of Penner is better than a 1st + Tinordi. Maybe it's because I'm not particularly high on Tinordi to begin with. Also, 20ish+ first rounders rarely produce Paciorettys.
Let's see if the habs end up with a better forward than Penner next summer after they used the money to fix the D.
If you thought Komisarek ever had a chance of being the next Scott Stevens (even if only the older offenseless version of Stevens) than I fully understand why you'd not pull the trigger on a Penner for Tinordi+20ish first trade. It's because you tend to overrate habs prospects.
People forget that Stevens put up some pretty good offensive seasons when he was younger. Komisarek never ever came close to have any type of noteworthy offense at the NHL level. He could have aspired to becoming Adam Foote... on his best day... maybe. But even then he was never as good as Adam Foote defensively, or even as mean and feared.
But really, Komisarek was never ever going to become a version of the old Stevens, Lucic thing or not.
Tinordi reminds me of O'byrne when we first drafted him. O'byrne was tooted as a guy who was big, a really good skater, but was 4-5 years away from being a NHL regular. Pretty much all the attributes that Tinordi has.
To me, Tinordi is a lot closer to an eventual O'byrne than Pronger. And there's nothing wrong with that with a 20ish 1st rounder.
Wait, when did I say I ever thought of Komisarek to become the next Stevens. I explained to you why there was actual reason to be excited about former #8 and it was rational. If I go back to posts from 2005-08 I am sure I will find some of you praising him and that's alright, hindsight is 20/20. Although he did have a couple of NHL seasons by the time we decided not to re-sign him and were able to properly assess him. Now Tinordi is a whole other story, he hasn't even played a single pro game yet. Junior leagues are there to develop a player, not to deem him a bust or not. You simply cannot label him a #4 D-man at this point. Hey if you're right, you got lucky, but chances are that you won't be and this is why you're not working for an NHL team. Don't take that as an insult, because n'either am I.
Without the cap to worry about, then perhaps a deal like that could have been feasible, but given the current make up of our roster, adding another 4M$+ top-6 forward doesn't seem feasible unless existing contracts are moved.
aside from that, I get the feeling that Penner would have a tough time in Montreal. He's had consistency and motivation issues in the past, and playing for a coach like Martin in a city like Montreal could be a recipe for disaster.
Agreed. Bringing in inconsistent players in (in terms of work ethic) seems like a no-no unless we're sending one away ourself (Lats vs Pouliot). I didn't really see it working either.
Penner is a big guy that can score though, so that makes quite a few people salivate at the thought of him being on our top 6.
I wouldn't have had a problem dealing for Penner. I think he fits this team very nicely, in fact, and I don't find his cap hit to be a hindrance moving forward.
A perfectly sensible position on why someone wouldn't want to do the trade.
I still think 1 year + the end of this one and playoffs of Penner is better than a 1st + Tinordi. Maybe it's because I'm not particularly high on Tinordi to begin with. Also, 20ish+ first rounders rarely produce Paciorettys.
Let's see if the habs end up with a better forward than Penner next summer after they used the money to fix the D.
I disagree with your view that Tinordi was a ''meh pick''. I agree with MM saying we probably didn't have to move up and could have selected him at the 26th rank. But the organization didn't want to miss out on him, I have no issues with that. I also have a lot of good faith in this organization when it comes to selecting Dman. PK, Weber, Streit, O'Byrne, Komisarek, Gorges (not at the draft but still), McDonagh, Emelin (ya he's a in Russia, no way of knowing if he'll ever play here, but he is a solid Dman over there). Sure, Fischer was a flop, but we've had a good number of success with our D selections.
Also, Penner has scored 30G once. Came awfully close with 29 another year. So, he's not a proven 30G scorer.
But as I said, if it was Tinordi heads up for Penner, I certainly would have thought about it a lot more. Adding a 1st rounder with the Oilers not shipping in a pick back themselves made me close my eyes right away.
He has a very low ceiling imo. One dimensional offenceless dman are easily replaced. Penner is a 30g scorer. You can argue semantics if you wish.
Solid non move by PG in all honesty its gonna take a miracle for the habs to win the cup this year and Penner wouldnt really change much of that. I say we wait till next season when we have a healthy markov and gorges to see how our line up looks like. I feel that if the right moves are made the habs can be a legit alstrong contender next season. Well have a solid defensive back end one of the best in the league and we'll be on powerforward or a pure offensive top 6 forward away to make a strong cup run.
I wouldn't have had a problem dealing for Penner. I think he fits this team very nicely, in fact, and I don't find his cap hit to be a hindrance moving forward.
Actually I think Penner is exactly what we are missing, someone to stand in front of the opposition's goalie. Tired of seeing smurfs like Gionta and Desharnais on the PP trying to screen a goalie who can clearly see over their heads. It would be nice to have someone that is big and hard to move in front of their goalies.
Actually I think Penner is exactly what we are missing, someone to stand in front of the opposition's goalie. Tired of seeing smurfs like Gionta and Desharnais on the PP trying to screen a goalie who can clearly see over their heads. It would be nice to have someone that is big and hard to move in front of their goalies.
What's wrong with Gionta in front of the net? Not every goalie is big like Brodeur or Carey, and he is quite good at deflecting pucks. An other who does it well is Pacioretty, if last night wasn't a screaming example of it. Andrei too but he is far more of a dangler than a garbage goal type. How can you blame him for it? Penner likes it most considering he can't score off the rush worth a ****.
Talking about skill-less and slow for penner then in the very next sentence bring up Tinordi, who is even less skilled and much slower. Well done.
Why would Edmonton give us a 25-30g scorer for less?
Tinordi isn't meant to be a top 6 forward so well done to you sir.
Tinordi skates well for his size, and probably skates better than Penner.
You don't mortage your future (1st pick and Tinordi former 1st round pick) for a top 6 forward, with a big cap hit who hasn't shown much, and doesn't even guarantee us what we need. Obviously I had to explain that, even though I thought it was fairly evident.
Wait, when did I say I ever thought of Komisarek to become the next Stevens.
It seemed you were defending the position so I assumed... and we all know assumption is the mother of all **** ups.
Quote:
I explained to you why there was actual reason to be excited about former #8 and it was rational.
Excited yes, but not "the next Stevens" excited.
Quote:
If I go back to posts from 2005-08 I am sure I will find some of you praising him and that's alright, hindsight is 20/20.
Yes I was happy at the time with him. Never thougth he'd be the next Stevens though. Which is the only reason I brought him up in the first place, so if you agree that it was silly to think of Komisarek as the next stevens then let's just drop the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Next Best Thing
Although he did have a couple of NHL seasons by the time we decided not to re-sign him and were able to properly assess him. Now Tinordi is a whole other story, he hasn't even played a single pro game yet. Junior leagues are there to develop a player, not to deem him a bust or not. You simply cannot label him a #4 D-man at this point. Hey if you're right, you got lucky, but chances are that you won't be and this is why you're not working for an NHL team. Don't take that as an insult, because n'either am I.
Now it's your putting words in my mouth. Never said he was a bust.
But, guys like Pronger.. they destroy the junior leagues at 17 and get drafted top 5, not barely in the first round with half of their hype based on the name their father gave them while barely hanging on at 19 in the juniors.. Not to diss Tinordi... but he's not going to be the next Pronger. And one doesn't need to be a pro scout to see that.
Francois Gagnon said between periods on TSN last night that Penner was offered for Montreal's 1st round draft pick in 2011 and Jared Tinordi.
I am so glad this deal DID NOT take place and Edmonton dealt him to Los Angeles.
I see us landing another BIG forward in this year's draft and building around Tinordi and Subban going forward.
I would have done it in a heartbeat. Tinordi may or may not even make the NHL, let alone be dominant. Penner is in the NHL, and answers a need on the Habs. The first? It's a crap shoot.
I wouldn't have had a problem dealing for Penner. I think he fits this team very nicely, in fact, and I don't find his cap hit to be a hindrance moving forward.
shhhh... too many PG fans using the smilie to bow at hi every non move. When you use it really adds to your point. You should try using or or even to get your point across sometimes, it really does help.
I wouldn't have had a problem dealing for Penner. I think he fits this team very nicely, in fact, and I don't find his cap hit to be a hindrance moving forward.
Me neither, but not for Tinordi. With the team that we have right now, trading a mean 6'7 (possibly +230-240 pounds when he bulks up) prospect who has it in him to defend his teammates is absolutely out of the question.
I did find it interesting that when Tambellini was asked about the Tinordi/1st rumour, he didn't deny it and seem to really shy away from the question.
Tinordi is the type of D-man that doesn't become dominant. They are useful NHL players, sure, and fine guys to pick as the 22nd overall (though adding a 2nd to go up and get him was foolish, IMHO; there were enough interesting prospects that drafting at 26th would've yielded a player of similar quality). Tinordi's ceiling is as a fourth-best D-man; nowhere near the impact of a top-line player like Penner.
All those 6'8 well-skating d-men who don't dominate...
All those 6'8 well-skating d-men who don't dominate...
I was thinking the same thing, a D his height with a mean streak and good skating and defensive zone play is definitely 1st round pick worthy. I would take a faster, meaner Hall Gill on my team any day of the week.
Doesn't have the same upside he would have had he grown up in Canada against stiffer competition. Sorry, but those are the facts and remain the facts, though it is changing. Clearly his upside is #3, more likely #4, maybe lower if he doesn't pan out. Certainly looks like a pro. If he's anything like his dad, he'll have the heart of a lion tho.
He's no Brian Leetch.
THe fact that Dustin Penner was even on the table and we didn't make that happen really upsets me. But again, maybe they just went with Teubert over Tinordi, or maybe PG/Moen know something we don't. Also, his wife lives in LA and he probably would not have stayed in Montreal anyway. Although... if he was with the Canadiens, she would have been pretty well known across Canada. Might have jumpstarted her nonexistent career.
Interesting that we could have had the line the Kings have now had we followed the philosophy to draft for size: Penner-Kopitar. Not to mention Getzlaf. But I'll take Price, thank you. Still, the two #1 centers in Los Angeles could have been 1-2 in Montreal. Try stopping that combo: Getzlaf-Kopitar. (With Halak in nets! hehehe)
Last edited by tinyzombies: 03-04-2011 at 08:33 PM.
Yes, but a left-handed Ryan O`byrne to play with Subban will be very appreciated even if it`s no Pronger...
Especially if he puts on 40 pounds and can throw.
If he does become an elite shutdown, first pairing complement guy, these are the kinds of guys that can win you Cups. Big, good wheels, great first pass, smart, a leader perhaps. That would take the pressure off Subban and let him rock and roll.
I still think Markov will be back as well.
But there's this that Penner would have helped with: "Montreal's forwards were able to win more than two offensive-zone puck-battles in a row on only 5 occasions."
or even 
to get your point across sometimes, it really does help.
