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Kings vs Vancouver; Quick will start; Williams on the 1st line

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Old
03-04-2011, 09:21 PM
  #51
TonySCV
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You said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Quick hasn't played well for the last two months.

1137 minutes, 10-8-1, 2.48 GAA, 457 saves out of 504 shots, .907 Sv%
And I asked...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
Out of curiosity.. what are his #'s with the Detroit game excluded?
You gave me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Regardless of that - which line has been more consistent all season than that one? Even with the gap in production, it's still the most consistent line on the team.

... Why stop there? Why not throw out all of his bad starts? Damn his numbers would look like a Hall of Famer, wouldn't they?

Quick was actually better in February than he was in January (4-6, .906 Sv%). Which games should we throw out there?
I asked a pretty simple question, and it's not a loaded one. I'm genuinely curious and since you have the stats handy - it would save me from looking up.

I'll try again. Out of curiosity.. what are Quick's #'s covering the same 2 month time period you noted earlier with the Detroit game excluded?

EDIT: I looked it up... .907 is actually his SV% with the Detroit game excluded (it seemed high). .899 is his SV% for games played so far in 2011.


Last edited by TonySCV: 03-04-2011 at 09:40 PM.
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Old
03-04-2011, 09:25 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... With all due respect, the hell they are.

For the first two months of the season, Quick played about as well as a man can play. He was a number one in every sense of the term. On top of that, Bernier was clearly struggling with the backup role.

But for the last two months, his overall body of work is not impressive. As much as I am a fan of Bernier, and as happy as I am that Bernier has improved his play - I don't want to see Quick fail. It doesn't bring me pleasure to see the team get beat because (among other things) Quick didn't happen to play well. I don't need to make up or skew numbers to further an "agenda". My agenda is I want to see the team win, and that the most deserving players get to play in order to help the team win.

Quick's save percentage over the last two months is .907. Do you know what it was last season? Also .907. So, the question is this - was that the real Jonathan Quick we saw over the first two months of this season, or was it the last two months? I'm glad to see him get the start tomorrow, because that's the only way we're going to find out. It is my opinion that, for the first time since Quick was named the number one, his role is in some jeopardy. And, I also think that Quick's well aware of this. The pressure is on. How will he respond?
Save % is such a ******** stat. Kings don't give up many shots, thus it's harder for the Kings goalies to ever have a really high %. Secondly, even if goalies are not at fault for obvious defensive breakdowns, it affects this stat. Bottom line, Quick has won 7 of his last 10 starts.

So who should start? Quick or Bernier? I'm not ready to give the lead to Bernier just yet. I have no doubt Bernier is a stud, but this is Quick's season imo.

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03-04-2011, 09:36 PM
  #53
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I could tell from the post game interview that Quick was playing Saturday. I think TM made that decision before the Phx game.

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Old
03-04-2011, 09:44 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Save % is such a ******** stat.
... No stat is perfect. But save percentage is the best one we have at the moment to judge goalie performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Kings don't give up many shots, thus it's harder for the Kings goalies to ever have a really high %. Secondly, even if goalies are not at fault for obvious defensive breakdowns, it affects this stat.
... Unless you're willing to show that the Kings have more defensive breakdowns than the other teams do (which I highly doubt) then this means nothing. Percentage is percentage, regardless of how good the defense in front of the goalie is. If we're talking about GAA, then I could see your point because most of that is dependent upon the defense.

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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Bottom line, Quick has won 7 of his last 10 starts.
... Wins are a team stat, and the worst stat with which to rate goalies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
So who should start? Quick or Bernier? I'm not ready to give the lead to Bernier just yet. I have no doubt Bernier is a stud, but this is Quick's season imo.
... I think that the right thing to do is alternate them from now until the end of the season, until one shows himself to be clearly better or one completely falters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
EDIT: I looked it up... .907 is actually his SV% with the Detroit game excluded (it seemed high). .899 is his SV% for games played so far in 2011.
... That's not the data I show, which is here, but it could be wrong. I didn't go over his game logs.


Last edited by JT Dutch*: 03-04-2011 at 09:52 PM.
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03-04-2011, 11:29 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
...
... That's not the data I show, which is here, but it could be wrong. I didn't go over his game logs.
Holy Cow. Hockey-reference.com is awesome.

Thanks!

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Old
03-04-2011, 11:32 PM
  #56
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10-0-1 against the Northwest, I get it now.

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03-05-2011, 01:26 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... With all due respect, the hell they are.

For the first two months of the season, Quick played about as well as a man can play. He was a number one in every sense of the term. On top of that, Bernier was clearly struggling with the backup role.

But for the last two months, his overall body of work is not impressive. As much as I am a fan of Bernier, and as happy as I am that Bernier has improved his play - I don't want to see Quick fail. It doesn't bring me pleasure to see the team get beat because (among other things) Quick didn't happen to play well. I don't need to make up or skew numbers to further an "agenda". My agenda is I want to see the team win, and that the most deserving players get to play in order to help the team win.

Quick's save percentage over the last two months is .907. Do you know what it was last season? Also .907. So, the question is this - was that the real Jonathan Quick we saw over the first two months of this season, or was it the last two months? I'm glad to see him get the start tomorrow, because that's the only way we're going to find out. It is my opinion that, for the first time since Quick was named the number one, his role is in some jeopardy. And, I also think that Quick's well aware of this. The pressure is on. How will he respond?
Again, why are we looking at stats from over a month ago to guage what a player is doing now? It does absolutely nothing but skew the stats. The Kings barely scored over two goals a game during that cold spell and the team was trash from top to bottom, including Bernier.

Fact is that Quick has had one terrible game his last outing and a bad one 5 games ago where there were several unforgivable breakdowns that led to goals. Aside from that, Quick has been the best goalie in hockey. That's based off stats and wins.

You say wins are a team stat. Well that is generaly true but in this case I have a feeling you are being simple to help your side of the debate. You are always very in depth in your stats and analysis so I don't believe for a second you believe that. Fact is that the Kings have scored well under league average in this winning stretch and just under half of these games have come from shootout wins that Quick simply stole the victories.

I generaly agree with you but I've noticed a lot of bias coming from you regarding Bernier lately. I don't want to come off as a hypocrite because there are several players that I am biased about but you have been pretty combative about Bernier and it's not really your style.

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Old
03-05-2011, 03:35 AM
  #58
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Ya know... With the addition of Penner I honestly think our top 9 can rival that of any team in the league..

Combine that with our world class (young) defense and steller (younger) goaltender tandem..

Our beloved Kings, can very well be.. what the so called experts call a ...CONTENDER

Well I'll be damned.

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Old
03-05-2011, 03:58 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no name View Post
.... but I've noticed a lot of bias coming from you regarding Bernier lately ... but you have been pretty combative about Bernier and it's not really your style.
Funny thing ... in doing up the GDT for Vancouver I had to go back to almost the beginning of the season ... to grabs info/data/and pics from back then ... and in reading through the GDT ... JT's had this bias PRO-Bernier / ANTI-Quick from the onset, which is all well and good I suppose, but who are you a FAN of ? the KINGS that include Quick obviously, or BERNIER ? Some of us aren't as Pro-Quick as we just like giving JT a dose of his own bias back at him for ***** & giggles to see his reactions .

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Old
03-05-2011, 04:51 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad View Post
I just saw the new lines. Maybe I am the only one that thought Simmonds played well last night and I should watch the game on TV. Live, he looked good. I thought he was better than Kopitar for most of the night. Murray said Simmonds wasn't moving his feet? Er...that was Kopi.

In any event, this is our coach. It's what he does. Lightning in a bottle. Ever seen a 65 year old man with ADHD? I have. Who cares. Let's keep winning.

edit: Jesus, am I seeing this right? He is putting Westgarth in? Someone tell me I am wrong here. For the love of everything sane, our fourth line was awesome and has been so.
This most be the first time I have to disagree with you Zad. You are way out in the bushes with " Kopi not moving his feet", he was on Fuego.

He hasn't been skating like that since...ehh? ever. Simmonds was not good enough, he should have thrown it at the net a couple of times when he came down the right side but he chose to hold on and go around the net as Kopi usually uses to do and the opportunity to a good chance in front of the net was gone.

Moving Simmonds or telling him and giving him a chance to "redeem" himself were the only options given. TM chose the first
one.

Misspelling in this case is a result of lack of ramsize.

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Old
03-05-2011, 11:15 AM
  #61
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Quick is #1. No one should be surprised he is playing against Vancouver.

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Old
03-05-2011, 11:21 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpa View Post
This most be the first time I have to disagree with you Zad. You are way out in the bushes with " Kopi not moving his feet", he was on Fuego.

He hasn't been skating like that since...ehh? ever. Simmonds was not good enough, he should have thrown it at the net a couple of times when he came down the right side but he chose to hold on and go around the net as Kopi usually uses to do and the opportunity to a good chance in front of the net was gone.

Moving Simmonds or telling him and giving him a chance to "redeem" himself were the only options given. TM chose the first
one.

Misspelling in this case is a result of lack of ramsize.
Moving his feet references below the blue line and skating the puck to the net and/or doing so along the boards and behind the net and/or doing so away from the puck especially after he dishes it off. He made one play to the net from behind the net. Besides that, he was stationary.

Coincidentally, I didn't think Simmonds' issue was moving his feet. He wasn't moving the puck.

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03-05-2011, 12:03 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Moving his feet references below the blue line and skating the puck to the net and/or doing so along the boards and behind the net and/or doing so away from the puck especially after he dishes it off. He made one play to the net from behind the net. Besides that, he was stationary.

Coincidentally, I didn't think Simmonds' issue was moving his feet. He wasn't moving the puck.
Exactly Simmonds did not move it he held on.

Must not most, dammit and I was good at it in my school years

About Kopi: IMO he was not that stationary. He was moving but what I saw he was not passing it to Penner, maybe because he was not where he should have been and somehow a broken pass could become a possible threat to TM's unforgiving system... I don't know but he did not dish it to him, anyway since he didn't, he had Simmonds or defenders to pass to. I think that Penner is supposed to go down below the goal line. With Kopi and Penner on each side of the net down low to create the cycle and then Simmonds should crash the net. But Penner already were in front of the net so Kopi had to carry it or go back to Simmonds but he (Kopi) never tried to put it on goal or dish or just try to throw it in Penners direction.

TM's system is suffocating creativity. Dame you TM


Last edited by alpa: 03-05-2011 at 12:36 PM.
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Old
03-05-2011, 12:07 PM
  #64
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Again, why are we looking at stats from over a month ago to guage what a player is doing now?
... Over a month ago??? The numbers for Quick cover January and February, the most recent two months of the season.

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Originally Posted by no name View Post
Fact is that Quick has had one terrible game his last outing and a bad one 5 games ago where there were several unforgivable breakdowns that led to goals. Aside from that, Quick has been the best goalie in hockey. That's based off stats and wins.
... Which stats? And no, Quick was never the best goalie in hockey. During the first two months he was in the top five in the league, and I suppose you could've made a case back then that he was the best in the league after Tim Thomas. But that isn't the case any longer.

As for defensive breakdowns, every team has those and like I said in my last post, unless you can convince me that the Kings have more of those than the other teams, that point is invalid. I'm looking at his whole season's body of work, and seeing that from October to December he was very good and since the new year he has struggled.

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Originally Posted by no name View Post
You say wins are a team stat. Well that is generaly true but in this case I have a feeling you are being simple to help your side of the debate. You are always very in depth in your stats and analysis so I don't believe for a second you believe that.
... I have ALWAYS said that wins are a team stat. When have you seen me post anything but wins being the worst number with which to rate goalies? It's not like I've changed my view here. So why would you not think that I believe this?

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Fact is that the Kings have scored well under league average in this winning stretch and just under half of these games have come from shootout wins that Quick simply stole the victories.
... OK, so he's been perfect in the shootout. That's nice, and yes it does help the team in the standings and he should get a degree of credit for that. That being said, I still would look at save percentage more than any other stat, because I'm interested in the numbers that occur while real hockey is being played. The shootout is too random for me. Last season, Quick was 10-8 in the shootout despite having a lower than average save percentage IN shootouts. The only reason he was over .500 was because the Kings scored a lot in the shootout. This season, he's 7-0 in them. If you want to make a case that all of a sudden he's a great shootout goalie, fine, but it seems to me to be more dependent on chance than anything else.

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Originally Posted by no name View Post
I generaly agree with you but I've noticed a lot of bias coming from you regarding Bernier lately. I don't want to come off as a hypocrite because there are several players that I am biased about but you have been pretty combative about Bernier and it's not really your style.
... I don't think I've made it a secret that I'm a fan of Bernier, and I've said all along that I think he will have a better career than Quick when it's all said and done. I don't see where I've been all that combative about it; sure a few people want to troll me about it because Quick is their guy, and that's fine. I get trolled here more than anyone, but that comes with the territory on an internet BB and as far as I'm concerned, hockey talk > silence any day.

I've given Quick plenty of credit this season for his improvement as a goalie, and I've said over and over again that I'm in favor of whatever will help the team win. I never make an assertion on here unless I have some sort of evidence to back up what I'm saying. You can say what you want about me "skewing" the numbers, but I've looked at them from a few different angles and they've all shown the same thing. Bernier, in the limited time he's received, is outplaying Quick since the new year. If you have some different numbers on Quick over the last two months that can prove your case, show them to me.

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Old
03-05-2011, 12:30 PM
  #65
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Carry on here:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=886376

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