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Francois Gagnon: Tinordi and 1st round round draft pick for Penner

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Old
03-04-2011, 10:13 PM
  #151
Melvin Udall
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Originally Posted by walsy37 View Post
Did PG offer this or was this what Edmonton wanted?
Don't know if PG made an offer for Penner.

Wish PG would have offered (and who knows......maybe he did) the Habs 2010 1st rounder and (maybe) a player to the Black Hawks for Dustin Byfuglien at the Draft last June.

Byfuglien was a real money player in the playoffs (personally, would prefer him over Penner - any day).....doubt the Hawks would have won the Cup without him.

I know it was a 'Cap' issue, but real surprised the Hawks didn't/couldn't find a way to keep him.

Just a dream....doesn't cost much to dream.


GO HABS GO!

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03-04-2011, 10:31 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by King Kool Aid View Post
Don't know if PG made an offer for Penner.

Wish PG would have offered (and who knows......maybe he did) the Habs 2010 1st rounder and (maybe) a player to the Black Hawks for Dustin Byfuglien at the Draft last June.

Byfuglien was a real money player in the playoffs (personally, would prefer him over Penner - any day).....doubt the Hawks would have won the Cup without him.

I know it was a 'Cap' issue, but real surprised the Hawks didn't/couldn't find a way to keep him.

Just a dream....doesn't cost much to dream.


GO HABS GO!
Agreed. Buff must be a real psycho or something. Anyone who can keep Pronger busy for half the game is worth gold.

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Old
03-04-2011, 10:47 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I would have done it in a heartbeat. Tinordi may or may not even make the NHL, let alone be dominant. Penner is in the NHL, and answers a need on the Habs. The first? It's a crap shoot.
You do realize you're trading from a weakness to fill a weakness, right ?

Habs don't have a ton of prospects, so they're trading essentially 2, one being a prospect in an area which we really need for a player we need

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03-04-2011, 10:54 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
You do realize you're trading from a weakness to fill a weakness, right ?

Habs don't have a ton of prospects, so they're trading essentially 2, one being a prospect in an area which we really need for a player we need
Penners don't grow on trees.

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03-04-2011, 11:00 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
Pronger does not fight.
Chara would be more like it...
A nastier Chara with better defensive skills at 22 years old.
Or the next Valabik.

You guys have to stop comparing him with Norris trophy winners just because he's the same height as them...

At the moment, he's a tall lanky kid with zero offense but who can skate. Not even a particularly dangerous pugilist from the videos that were posted in this thread. Heck, he can't even handle a big role on a bad OHL team at 19. I haven't read any real positive report on him since he's joined London, and he couldn't even make the USA squad. Right now, nothing suggests that Tinordi is the next Chara, except his height. Comparisons to Pronger/Chara are both premature and ridiculous.

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Old
03-04-2011, 11:17 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
I was talking about style.
Pronger does not fight so if you want to compare him to a player, Chara could do better.
Also Pronger was a top-3 from the get-go like Gudbransson (for example).
Chara was drafted later and did not score much in his younger years.

I am not saying he will evolve like Chara did (altough he has the genetics and was properly trained).
Just saying that if you want to compare him to a star d-men, Chara would fit more the profile than Pronger.

Will he become a Chara: I don't know but he certainly won't be a Pronger.
Not the same style and Tinordi is not blabling at the refs all the time like Pronger does.
He never said a word to the referees during that game.
At his point, we only know that he will be a solid d-men.
You might use Gill as a reference but he is a comet compared to Gill...
If you're talking about style, I agree that he's more of a Chara than Pronger. But I hate throwing those names around when it comes to average prospects (even for really good ones).

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You want a better comparaison: a nastier Gill who can skate fast.
Offense will take a long time to appear (like it did with Chara).
Or might never appear at all (like it did with O'byrne, Gill, Komisarek, etc).

Even Chara was putting up double the pts Tinordi is at the same age.

If he hasn't shown any hockey ability it's basically a crap shoot at this point whether he ever will.

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Old
03-04-2011, 11:56 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post

If he hasn't shown any hockey ability it's basically a crap shoot at this point whether he ever will.
do you equate offensive stats in leagues other than the nhl with "hockey ability"? corey locke says hi.

i think skating, positioning, hitting, and a good first pass all constitute 'hockey ability' for a defensive defenseman and i've heard no real complaints about tinordi's development in these areas.

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03-05-2011, 12:11 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Yarfangor View Post
Tinordi isn't meant to be a top 6 forward so well done to you sir.

Tinordi skates well for his size, and probably skates better than Penner.

You don't mortage your future (1st pick and Tinordi former 1st round pick) for a top 6 forward, with a big cap hit who hasn't shown much, and doesn't even guarantee us what we need. Obviously I had to explain that, even though I thought it was fairly evident.

And since when is 25-30 goals worth 2 1sts?
Tinordi doesn't even hold the value of where he was selected anymore. Just because someone selected in the first rd doesn't mean they have first round talent.

Trading a late pick and at best a 4th dman for a young proven 30g scorer is hardly mortgaging the future. He is a top 20 scoring winger over the last 4 years and top 11 over the last 2 as posted by mathman.

Who said anything about Tinordi being a top 6 winger? You gonna build strawmen arguments or are you gonna actually debate what was said?

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Old
03-05-2011, 12:24 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Thank God.

It still boggles my mind how people absolutley hate Andrei Kostitsyn but were about to wet their pants at the thought of aquiring Penner. The man is just as inconsistent and enigmatic as Andrei. He's also very lazy and is not overtly physical. He uses his size to protect the puck, but he's not a bruiser.

Fans saw 6'4, 230 pounds and nothing else went in their head. I would have been pissed at that move, especially that Penner has another 4.25 million cap hit for another year. The last thing we need is to commit that amount of money to a player like that for another year.
I can't stand AK as a hockey player, but I also think little of Dustin Penner. I remember battling with Oiler fans on the main board about this overrated plugger . They thought he was the next coming of Tim Kerr.

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Old
03-05-2011, 12:38 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
do you equate offensive stats in leagues other than the nhl with "hockey ability"? corey locke says hi.

i think skating, positioning, hitting, and a good first pass all constitute 'hockey ability' for a defensive defenseman and i've heard no real complaints about tinordi's development in these areas.
By hockey abilities I meant everything you can do with a hockey stick ie passing, shooting, stick handling, etc. Not even offensive abilities necessarily. I guess it was a poor choice of words on my part.

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03-05-2011, 01:37 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
You do realize you're trading from a weakness to fill a weakness, right ?

Habs don't have a ton of prospects, so they're trading essentially 2, one being a prospect in an area which we really need for a player we need
You can't teach size and size on the top 6 is rather hard to find. Stay at home defensemen on the other hand, are a lot easier to find.

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Old
03-05-2011, 05:21 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I'm happy it didn't go through if that's what they wanted. I don't see Penner as much of an upgrade over Andrei. I'm not AK biggest fan, but I find it funny how perception works. AK isn't far from Penner in production, work ethic ect except Penner is seen as a much better player for some reason.

If that Habs were offered a 1st round prospect and a 1st for AK and they didn't take it, I'd be pissed! As such, I'm happy we didn't pay that price for Penner.
This is the correct analysis of why not doing the proposed deal was the correct choice.


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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
The more I think about it the more I think about how this non-trade was the best thing for our team and I'll give a few obvious reasons.

1) Despite people hating on Wiz, he's capable of putting up maybe 60 points. Defenseman who can do that don't grow on trees. We'd lose out on re-signing this guy for sure if we picked up Penner. Sure he isn't great defensively but he's leaps and bounds better than Bergeron. He's worth every penny if we sign him for a fair deal.

2) Penner himself. He isn't a good fit for us, while he'd add to our current top 9 and help to balance out our team somewhat, he isn't what we're looking for and would screw us out of signing a potentially better UFA this summer.

3) Tinordi + 1st - Not worth it considering the player we get back isn't perfect for us. I'd much rather wait it out and give up even more than that for a player much more fitting to our needs. That being said though no way we give up Tinordi + 1st for somebody who isn't a perfect fit, being that no other top 6 UFA's were really available, I like the non-move for this reason. We need to add prospects not take away prospects, and if we do it had better be for a guy who completes our top 6 and effectively gives us 3 scoring lines.

TSN rated Gauthier a C on deadline day, for the fact that he didn't trade for somebody whose only a partial fit, for the fact that he got Wiz a guy whose arguably able to put up 50-60 points as a defender on a team that's a shell of it's old defensive self, I respectfully disagree. The non-move for me makes perfect sense. Sure I would've loved to see a deal get done but if it isn't the right move then no move is the right move.

We just need to be patient and I'm glad our management isn't willing to mortgage the future to improve our chances in a bad year by 5%.

Plus let's face it, if we do re-sign Wiz and keep Markov, our team if healthy will be dynamite next season. For that alone I say PG actually did a really good job. He landed a D who can produce big time and is somewhat okay defensively.
Screw TSN. They gave Gauthier a bad grade because he didn't feed them material to report. Their overhype of deadline day is an attention-starved stab at creating something that doesn't exist, and media pressure has gotten some GMs buying into the hype. Gainey and Gauthier never did, and thank god for their sense. Imagine having a trade-the-farm-on-deadline-day-just-to-get-my-face-on-TV GM like Burke?

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Old
03-05-2011, 05:41 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Dekar View Post
This is the correct analysis of why not doing the proposed deal was the correct choice.




Screw TSN. They gave Gauthier a bad grade because he didn't feed them material to report. Their overhype of deadline day is an attention-starved stab at creating something that doesn't exist, and media pressure has gotten some GMs buying into the hype. Gainey and Gauthier never did, and thank god for their sense. Imagine having a trade-the-farm-on-deadline-day-just-to-get-my-face-on-TV GM like Burke?
Yes, because that's what Burke has done on deadline days.

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03-05-2011, 08:12 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Yes, because that's what Burke has done on deadline days.
Burke was interviewed on TSN and Sportsnet just to say he hadn't did anything his year..even when he doesn't do anything he wants to be the center of attention...if you disagree with that then you're related to the boor.


Don't believe everything you read folks. I find it more than just a coincidence that the purported deal Gagnon is talking about is the exact same one that was reported by a fake Pierre Lebrun on twitter. I think what happened was Gagnon heard about that rumour, and just assumed it must have been discussed. I say it's all rubbish.

In speaking with one member of the Habs' organization about the rumour, he described Penner as fat and lazy....I'm pretty sure Penner was never a target of the Habs...

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Old
03-05-2011, 10:52 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Penners don't grow on trees.
You're right, lazy ***** don't grow on trees.

Penner would have been a huge mistake, especially at the cost of Tinordi and a 1st pick.

Penner's stats in is first LA Kings game:

- nil all across with ice time of 16:45. Apparently a no show with litle impact on the game.

What a first impression! I'd rather have A.Kost than Penner.

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03-05-2011, 11:30 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
Pronger does not fight.
Chara would be more like it...
A nastier Chara with better defensive skills at 22 years old.
A nastier Chara ?

Chara was a mean motherf**ker in juniors and in his first few seasons in professional hockey.

If Tinordi becomes half of what Chara is, it will be an absolute great pick...

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03-05-2011, 11:33 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Subban76 View Post
You're right, lazy ***** don't grow on trees.

Penner would have been a huge mistake, especially at the cost of Tinordi and a 1st pick.

Penner's stats in is first LA Kings game:

- nil all across with ice time of 16:45. Apparently a no show with litle impact on the game.

What a first impression! I'd rather have A.Kost than Penner.
All he did was park his ass in front of the goalie. Otherwise zero shots, zero chances, etc. People are drooling over that garbage

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03-05-2011, 11:42 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
All he did was park his ass in front of the goalie. Otherwise zero shots, zero chances, etc. People are drooling over that garbage
I think you're smarter than to judge a player on one game.

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03-05-2011, 11:48 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Or the next Valabik.

You guys have to stop comparing him with Norris trophy winners just because he's the same height as them...

At the moment, he's a tall lanky kid with zero offense but who can skate. Not even a particularly dangerous pugilist from the videos that were posted in this thread. Heck, he can't even handle a big role on a bad OHL team at 19. I haven't read any real positive report on him since he's joined London, and he couldn't even make the USA squad. Right now, nothing suggests that Tinordi is the next Chara, except his height. Comparisons to Pronger/Chara are both premature and ridiculous.
Exactly right, comparing him to past Norris winners is ridiculous when he hasn't played 1 NHL game yet, he could be a bust for all we know.

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03-05-2011, 12:12 PM
  #170
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I think you're smarter than to judge a player on one game.
I will avatar bet with ANYONE that he won't reach 30 goals next year on the Kings, how about that.

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03-05-2011, 01:11 PM
  #171
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I keep seeing Chara, O'Byrne and Pronger comparisons in this thread but in all honesty I just want to see him become a bigger version of his father. Penner isn't worth 2 firsts, he's too inconsistent and slow. I think that Hemsky would have been a better fit with this team.

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03-05-2011, 01:39 PM
  #172
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Can't help but laugh at the Tinordi comparisons here, especially when they're presented as certainty. Tinordi COULD become a Regehr, or he COULD become a O'Byrne. Time will tell as no one knows how he will develop.

We know that Penner is a big top 6 player who can put the puck in the net though. That we do know.

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03-05-2011, 02:19 PM
  #173
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If Penner managed 30 goals a season in his inconsistent maddening way it would be one thing. But he averages closer to 25 goals a season and has only topped 30 once.

At 28 years of age he may improve on that. Many bigger players come into their own a bit later. But it is far from a given.

So, a 25 goal forward with considerable size which he doesn't always use according to some reports. 4 million a season and a free agent in one year.

For Tinordi straight up. Okay. Add a third or fourth-rounder...maybe.

Together with a first--no thanks.

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03-05-2011, 02:44 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
Andrei Kostitsyn > Penner
That is why Penner has more points this season and was widely superior last? I am not the biggest Penner fan but he trumps Kostitsyn at least in recent years.

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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Glad we didn't do it also...AK, as we are seeing can be effective with the right players...can he be consistant? Let's hope so!
We have asked this for four years. You have better odds being struck by lightning at this point.

In any event, I am indifferent to the trade. I would have done so personally as I do not hold Tinordi with high regard. Lackluster season and not projected to be an impact player for some time. Granted, he is young and could develop. That said, as previously mentioned I was never big on Penner. Our options for a legitimate powerforward though is limited.

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03-05-2011, 03:45 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I'd have done it.

I never really liked the Tinordi pick. I think he'll be an okay player, but nothing outstanding. I watch the OHL a lot since I live inbetween two teams and I have the OHL Centre Ice package. I've been wrong before though.
I have the same view with Tinordi. He doesn't seem to be playing with an edge and doesn't have much offensive capabilities. Although I have not seen him much since he was drafted.

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