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At what point is enough for you

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Old
03-04-2011, 02:04 PM
  #26
Legionnaire11
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I would love to read the old arguments "it's just one season, lets see where we are in 3-5 years"... "It's just two seasons, lets see where we are in 3-5 years"... "It's just three seasons, lets see where we are in 3-5 years"... well, you know the trend.

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Old
03-04-2011, 03:32 PM
  #27
101st_fan
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This team is what it is ... a consistently competitive team that fights for the bottom half of the playoff spots and tends to limp into the post season with key injuries down the stretch and unfavorable matchups resulting from the low seed. When they do get the #4 seed, a statistical fluke occurs and they meet the team that tied the Preds for the most regular season wins in the conference as a 4/5 matchup ... no distinct advantage. They play too well in the regular season to get a high, surefire short term impact pick but not well enough to win the division. Every season is filled with roller coaster streaks ... win 6, lose 6 ... weeks without a PPG, 25% conversion rates ... 4 goals a game for a stretch followed by not netting a goal for a week. This team has gone 11 seasons without a Cup, never advanced past the first round. It is far from an elite team but has been a quite successful regular season competitor since the lockout.

It is maddening, but, this game is supposed to be a diversion for fans. It isn't my livelihood nor is it a matter of life or death. As upset as I get at every loss, a loss beats the hell out of incoming rockets while showering.

We can complain all we want about the trades Poile did or didn't make but we operate here in a vacuum. He brings in Fisher ... which if he does at the deadline gets hailed as a big move ... but he does it early so the fan base is looking for more. We see indicators of further trade preparations with Belak, Sulzer, and Svatos moved. In the process we open up three roster spots and clear two contracts. The next thing is a presser after the fact with Poile saying that what was available was too costly after no more deals at the deadline. So once again we get the annual debate if Poile is too cautious ... or wisely managing the money ... and none of us have a clue if we're right or not. Without watching over his shoulder we don't know if he chose to sit out of the trade game or if the pieces of our organization that he was willing to part with just weren't enough to get the players he wanted.

For all of the real and imagined cons that Poile and Trotz possess, they are at the helm of a team that can go out and beat any team no matter how elite their roster or how good their record may be ... or lose to a bottom dweller that is playing for yet another lottery pick ... as demonstrated so far this week in western Canada. The organization is probably at a point where they could bring in a new coach and at least maintain the status quo if not improve. Finding a GM who can operate within our budget constraints might be a tougher mission. Maybe a Fenton or Shero type guy who has worked under tight money situations. A Burke or Lamorello type might be too used to having a big budget to keep the Preds afloat.

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03-04-2011, 04:20 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
..The organization is probably at a point where they could bring in a new coach and at least maintain the status quo if not improve. Finding a GM who can operate within our budget constraints might be a tougher mission. Maybe a Fenton or Shero type guy who has worked under tight money situations. A Burke or Lamorello type might be too used to having a big budget to keep the Preds afloat.
Like several of you I think the lack of quality depth up front results in just what we have seen the last few years: injury-plagued fizzles at the end of the year after an above average performance in the first 2/3 of the season. This is when points are hard to come by, and the team seems to reach it every year when it is least capable of keeping pace. By the team the playoffs start the team is winded just to have gotten there.

Hence the annual hand-wringing about coach and GM. Given his constraints, Trotz manages to push the team pretty far. I positively know the franchise could have worse coaches. But I think it could really be time for a new voice behind the bench if the Preds don't make the post-season or can't exceed the first round this year.

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03-04-2011, 04:36 PM
  #29
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I wouldn't be all that upset if we missed the playoffs. Injuries have killed us this year.

Not to mention we have over $13M in dead salary sitting in IR or the pressbox. We are essentially running a team well below the cap floor. Can't think of another team in playoff contention doing the same.

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03-05-2011, 12:27 AM
  #30
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Like several of you I think the lack of quality depth up front results in just what we have seen the last few years: injury-plagued fizzles at the end of the year after an above average performance in the first 2/3 of the season. This is when points are hard to come by, and the team seems to reach it every year when it is least capable of keeping pace. By the team the playoffs start the team is winded just to have gotten there.

Hence the annual hand-wringing about coach and GM. Given his constraints, Trotz manages to push the team pretty far. I positively know the franchise could have worse coaches. But I think it could really be time for a new voice behind the bench if the Preds don't make the post-season or can't exceed the first round this year.
We talk about a lack of depth, but, look at where this team is considering who we've had injured. Our projected #1 center played in two games ... the #2 and #3 centers both missed substantial time. O'Reilly has been out for months. Sully on IR several times. Erat's been dinged a couple times. We lose Tootoo for about two months. This is one area where our lack of any elite forwards is actually almost beneficial. When one goes down, we're not trying to replace an Ovie or Crosby ... we simply reshuffle the lines, call up a guy from the Ads, and continue to play within a system. We don't have flashy depth (then again, we don't have flashy starters) but we do have serviceable depth to to keep the ship afloat for prolonged stretches.

If Wilson continues to develop into the player we've caught glimpses of this season and Geoffrion continues to perform ... we're not in as bad of shape as a lot of fans think. A little more home grown, Poile drafted talent up front to go with Hornqvist kid he picked with the last pick.

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:50 AM
  #31
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We talk about a lack of depth, but, look at where this team is considering who we've had injured. Our projected #1 center played in two games ... the #2 and #3 centers both missed substantial time. O'Reilly has been out for months. Sully on IR several times. Erat's been dinged a couple times. We lose Tootoo for about two months. This is one area where our lack of any elite forwards is actually almost beneficial. When one goes down, we're not trying to replace an Ovie or Crosby ... we simply reshuffle the lines, call up a guy from the Ads, and continue to play within a system. We don't have flashy depth (then again, we don't have flashy starters) but we do have serviceable depth to to keep the ship afloat for prolonged stretches.

If Wilson continues to develop into the player we've caught glimpses of this season and Geoffrion continues to perform ... we're not in as bad of shape as a lot of fans think. A little more home grown, Poile drafted talent up front to go with Hornqvist kid he picked with the last pick.
I enjoyed your comments. I'm for the "youth movement" we are seeing myself. If we make the playoffs, then great. But if we don't make them this year, with all of the injuries, then I'm not holding Trotz & Co. totally responsible. I just hope we re-sign Weber and SK74. Sorry Sully, your time is done here. I wish J.P. was in his last year, but oh well.

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03-05-2011, 10:25 AM
  #32
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I enjoyed your comments. I'm for the "youth movement" we are seeing myself. If we make the playoffs, then great. But if we don't make them this year, with all of the injuries, then I'm not holding Trotz & Co. totally responsible. I just hope we re-sign Weber and SK74. Sorry Sully, your time is done here. I wish J.P. was in his last year, but oh well.
consensus seems to be JP will be bought out.

I am not totally sold on SK for a long term deal... maybe I will be by the end of the year but I suspect poile will qualify him and try to to make him show us another good year before giving him big money. remember 30 goals only got hornqvist 3 mil.

I am sincerely hoping Geoffrion keep on showing offensive upside. I think everyone kinda pegged him as topping out at a 4th line grinder but maybe we will be pleasantly surprised.

I think from a fanbase perspective if we dont make it after having been 4th for a long stretch there will be some letdown, but it wont be huge

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03-05-2011, 12:30 PM
  #33
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I am slightly optimistic that the Ciggaran (sp??) may pull the trigger on Poile and Trotz if the "one and done" pattern continues. He brought in new management that has increased attendance. That has improved the bottom line and given Poile a little flexibility. Everyone, including Trotz, says this franchise is poised to take the next step toward the Cup.

Poile and Co. will get a pass this season because of the injuries to key players. But I don't think the owners will be as patient and forgiving if this team doesn't move past the first round next season.

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03-05-2011, 01:14 PM
  #34
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I am slightly optimistic that the Ciggaran (sp??) may pull the trigger on Poile and Trotz if the "one and done" pattern continues. He brought in new management that has increased attendance. That has improved the bottom line and given Poile a little flexibility. Everyone, including Trotz, says this franchise is poised to take the next step toward the Cup.

Poile and Co. will get a pass this season because of the injuries to key players. But I don't think the owners will be as patient and forgiving if this team doesn't move past the first round next season.
I suspect you are right about that.

Ciggaran is the type of guy who seems to be willing to give Poile some more support but in turn expects results.

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03-05-2011, 02:29 PM
  #35
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I suspect you are right about that.

Ciggaran is the type of guy who seems to be willing to give Poile some more support but in turn expects results.
Not to mention it isn't the same front office that didn't know a thing about hockey operations. They've brought in guys who have been around sports team, specifically hockey teams, and know what they are doing. If Poile was safe because of their initial hockey ignorance I don't think he is much longer, if at all.

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03-05-2011, 02:39 PM
  #36
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I wouldn't be all that upset if we missed the playoffs. Injuries have killed us this year.

Not to mention we have over $13M in dead salary sitting in IR or the pressbox. We are essentially running a team well below the cap floor. Can't think of another team in playoff contention doing the same.
This is spot on. Poile's forward contracts are abysmal.

Sullivan 3.75 million
Dumont 4 million
Lombardi 3.5 million

That is terrible.

Legwand at 4.5 is tolerable, but Erat at 4.5 as well is too much money in two highly inconsistent players. If I had to choose, I would rather have the Legwand contract due to the speed and playmaking abilities to go along with stellar defense. Erat has better hands, but he is too much of a puck hog......and does not have the defensive ability to fall back on like Legwand (although he is decent in his own end). Honestly, Legwand is at the least, 500k overpaid for this team. Realistically, he probably should be at 3.5. The same for Erat. I think open market wise they both could possibly receive a 4.5 million annual salary, but for our team, it is too pricey for the inconsistency.

Not to mention, Ward is overpaid and unnecessary given we have 5-6 players in Milwuakee all year that could have replaced his salary at a million less.

In defense of the Dumont contract, I think it was a decent deal at the time. Dumont was playing fabulous hockey here. He was one of our top playoff performers, and while he was also a streaky scorer, he never showed this complete and utter lack of confidence. The problem with JP is that he plays with a unique creativity...almost selfish at times. He makes good passes, but they are often of the unexpected kind. It takes a special kind of chemistry for him to excel, and right now, there is no one that fits that bill....not to mention he isn't getting the opportunity to develop that chemistry.

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03-07-2011, 08:12 PM
  #37
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I think this makes me have enough too. From the wrap from Trotz:

“It’s time where we need Colin Wilson who has two points in 11 games. He has to step up here,” Trotz said. “To me, he’s taken a step back here in his last couple of games, because it’s not about his ability, it’s about his mindset and he’s taken a step back. He has to step forward,”

Really? You think? He's a kid. He's getting top line and PP minutes then gets yanked from a line he's playing well with to playing with Smithson and Ward and then bumped further down to playing 8 minutes with Bam Bam and Hali. How the heck do you think he's going to respond? Unfreaking real. His mindset is probably that of one who's ticked off. Yeah, he makes mistakes. Who doesn't on this team lately? I'd live with his mistakes since he brings offense to the team and the last time I checked we're kind of short on that right now. Put him with a guy like Fisher or Legwand so he's covered defensively on a line. Let him do this thing. I understand you have to play a system but you have to let talent breathe. He's got ability, let it shine. Let him off his leash. It just amazes me that he can criticize a kid who gets put with grinders and on the 4th line. We didn't draft him to play limited minutes or with grinders, we drafted him to be a top 6 forward. Give him consistent top 6 minutes with top 6 talent around him, that's the only way he's going to grow as a player. Yanking him up and down the lineup is only going to f' up his growth as a player. It happened with Legwand. It possibly drove Rads away. It's messing up Wilson. How many more young talents are we going to mess up?

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03-07-2011, 08:30 PM
  #38
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I think this makes me have enough too. From the wrap from Trotz:

Its time where we need Colin Wilson who has two points in 11 games. He has to step up here, Trotz said. To me, hes taken a step back here in his last couple of games, because its not about his ability, its about his mindset and hes taken a step back. He has to step forward,

Really? You think? He's a kid. He's getting top line and PP minutes then gets yanked from a line he's playing well with to playing with Smithson and Ward and then bumped further down to playing 8 minutes with Bam Bam and Hali. How the heck do you think he's going to respond? Unfreaking real. His mindset is probably that of one who's ticked off. Yeah, he makes mistakes. Who doesn't on this team lately? I'd live with his mistakes since he brings offense to the team and the last time I checked we're kind of short on that right now. Put him with a guy like Fisher or Legwand so he's covered defensively on a line. Let him do this thing. I understand you have to play a system but you have to let talent breathe. He's got ability, let it shine. Let him off his leash. It just amazes me that he can criticize a kid who gets put with grinders and on the 4th line. We didn't draft him to play limited minutes or with grinders, we drafted him to be a top 6 forward. Give him consistent top 6 minutes with top 6 talent around him, that's the only way he's going to grow as a player. Yanking him up and down the lineup is only going to f' up his growth as a player. It happened with Legwand. It possibly drove Rads away. It's messing up Wilson. How many more young talents are we going to mess up?
LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT. For someone they were labeling "The Face of the Future Franchise", he is being hidden quite a bit recently. I've seen more true hockey player moves from Willy and SK in single games compared to entire seasons by #10 and #11.

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03-07-2011, 08:38 PM
  #39
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I think this makes me have enough too. From the wrap from Trotz:

Its time where we need Colin Wilson who has two points in 11 games. He has to step up here, Trotz said. To me, hes taken a step back here in his last couple of games, because its not about his ability, its about his mindset and hes taken a step back. He has to step forward,

Really? You think? He's a kid. He's getting top line and PP minutes then gets yanked from a line he's playing well with to playing with Smithson and Ward and then bumped further down to playing 8 minutes with Bam Bam and Hali. How the heck do you think he's going to respond? Unfreaking real. His mindset is probably that of one who's ticked off. Yeah, he makes mistakes. Who doesn't on this team lately? I'd live with his mistakes since he brings offense to the team and the last time I checked we're kind of short on that right now. Put him with a guy like Fisher or Legwand so he's covered defensively on a line. Let him do this thing. I understand you have to play a system but you have to let talent breathe. He's got ability, let it shine. Let him off his leash. It just amazes me that he can criticize a kid who gets put with grinders and on the 4th line. We didn't draft him to play limited minutes or with grinders, we drafted him to be a top 6 forward. Give him consistent top 6 minutes with top 6 talent around him, that's the only way he's going to grow as a player. Yanking him up and down the lineup is only going to f' up his growth as a player. It happened with Legwand. It possibly drove Rads away. It's messing up Wilson. How many more young talents are we going to mess up?
Thank you. When is it going to be enough for Poile or the owners to issue an ultimatum? You hit all the points on the head there.

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03-07-2011, 08:40 PM
  #40
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Thank you. When is it going to be enough for Poile or the owners to issue an ultimatum? You hit all the points on the head there.
Poile & Trotz are BFF, it comes down to whether Cigarran is ready to pull the trigger & let someone else take over the reigns

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03-07-2011, 09:11 PM
  #41
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I think this makes me have enough too. From the wrap from Trotz:

Its time where we need Colin Wilson who has two points in 11 games. He has to step up here, Trotz said. To me, hes taken a step back here in his last couple of games, because its not about his ability, its about his mindset and hes taken a step back. He has to step forward,

Really? You think? He's a kid. He's getting top line and PP minutes then gets yanked from a line he's playing well with to playing with Smithson and Ward and then bumped further down to playing 8 minutes with Bam Bam and Hali. How the heck do you think he's going to respond? Unfreaking real. His mindset is probably that of one who's ticked off. Yeah, he makes mistakes. Who doesn't on this team lately? I'd live with his mistakes since he brings offense to the team and the last time I checked we're kind of short on that right now. Put him with a guy like Fisher or Legwand so he's covered defensively on a line. Let him do this thing. I understand you have to play a system but you have to let talent breathe. He's got ability, let it shine. Let him off his leash. It just amazes me that he can criticize a kid who gets put with grinders and on the 4th line. We didn't draft him to play limited minutes or with grinders, we drafted him to be a top 6 forward. Give him consistent top 6 minutes with top 6 talent around him, that's the only way he's going to grow as a player. Yanking him up and down the lineup is only going to f' up his growth as a player. It happened with Legwand. It possibly drove Rads away. It's messing up Wilson. How many more young talents are we going to mess up?
Far as Trotz as a person I think quite highly of him as a coach not much. That comment makes me lose respect for him. Any coach who hides behind that it is the players fault I have no respect. It Trotz's job to bring out the best in him not demean or deflate him. He's young and impressionable. It's the coach's job to put him in position to succeed not prove his points. He could be Legwand and not listen to Trotz. Each year Trotz calls out Legwand and each year he doesn't exceed. So now I'm for Trotz to go. We have now shown that we have talent and it can't be developed under the current system. Smithson plays the system perfectly but you don't win with Guys like if someone doesn't score.

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03-07-2011, 09:39 PM
  #42
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I think this makes me have enough too. From the wrap from Trotz:

Its time where we need Colin Wilson who has two points in 11 games. He has to step up here, Trotz said. To me, hes taken a step back here in his last couple of games, because its not about his ability, its about his mindset and hes taken a step back. He has to step forward,

Really? You think? He's a kid. He's getting top line and PP minutes then gets yanked from a line he's playing well with to playing with Smithson and Ward and then bumped further down to playing 8 minutes with Bam Bam and Hali. How the heck do you think he's going to respond? Unfreaking real. His mindset is probably that of one who's ticked off. Yeah, he makes mistakes. Who doesn't on this team lately? I'd live with his mistakes since he brings offense to the team and the last time I checked we're kind of short on that right now. Put him with a guy like Fisher or Legwand so he's covered defensively on a line. Let him do this thing. I understand you have to play a system but you have to let talent breathe. He's got ability, let it shine. Let him off his leash. It just amazes me that he can criticize a kid who gets put with grinders and on the 4th line. We didn't draft him to play limited minutes or with grinders, we drafted him to be a top 6 forward. Give him consistent top 6 minutes with top 6 talent around him, that's the only way he's going to grow as a player. Yanking him up and down the lineup is only going to f' up his growth as a player. It happened with Legwand. It possibly drove Rads away. It's messing up Wilson. How many more young talents are we going to mess up?
Preaching to choir here baby! Amen!

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03-07-2011, 09:39 PM
  #43
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You guys are trying to make light of Trotz' relationship with his players through the media.

While I don't see the point in Trotz talking to the media about player X, what it comes down to is Trotz' individual relationship with the players. By all indications he's a players coach, and has their backs. You can take little snipets from media bytes, but at the end of the day, players respect Trotz and he respects them.

No one does more with less than B Trotz, year in an out. We'd be in serious trouble if he left, unless we also acquired at least 3 true scoring line players at the same time.

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03-07-2011, 10:16 PM
  #44
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No one does more with less than B Trotz, year in an out. We'd be in serious trouble if he left, unless we also acquired at least 3 true scoring line players at the same time.
This is the one argument that always gets me, the notion that we would be sunk with any GM and coach other than Poile and Trotz. I have a hard time believing that other NHL caliber coaches could not do as much with the Preds roster, they are not idiots who only luck into wins because of the talent on their roster, they are top level professionals.

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03-07-2011, 10:23 PM
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I have a hard time believing that other NHL caliber coaches could not do as much with the Preds roster, they are not idiots who only luck into wins.
May want to ask Columbus, Atlanta, Florida, Minnesota, NYI, STL, etc about that. And any team with a bottom 5 forward group.

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03-07-2011, 10:30 PM
  #46
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Trotz's comments on Wilson: outrageous ... infuriating ... predictable.

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03-07-2011, 10:36 PM
  #47
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May want to ask Columbus, Atlanta, Florida, Minnesota, NYI, STL, etc about that. And any team with a bottom 5 forward group.
So your satisfied with just being better than the bottom teams but not good enough to be better than the middle teams.

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03-07-2011, 11:25 PM
  #48
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People are reading WAY too deep into those comments. He's just trying to light a fire under him. Trotz isn't bad mouthing Wilson or anything. Just trying to get something going. Remember when he called out Erat, Legwand, and Hornqvist? Didn't they ALL score the next game?

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03-07-2011, 11:25 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I think this makes me have enough too. From the wrap from Trotz:

“It’s time where we need Colin Wilson who has two points in 11 games. He has to step up here,” Trotz said. “To me, he’s taken a step back here in his last couple of games, because it’s not about his ability, it’s about his mindset and he’s taken a step back. He has to step forward,”Really? You think? He's a kid. He's getting top line and PP minutes then gets yanked from a line he's playing well with to playing with Smithson and Ward and then bumped further down to playing 8 minutes with Bam Bam and Hali. How the heck do you think he's going to respond? Unfreaking real. His mindset is probably that of one who's ticked off. Yeah, he makes mistakes. Who doesn't on this team lately? I'd live with his mistakes since he brings offense to the team and the last time I checked we're kind of short on that right now. Put him with a guy like Fisher or Legwand so he's covered defensively on a line. Let him do this thing. I understand you have to play a system but you have to let talent breathe. He's got ability, let it shine. Let him off his leash. It just amazes me that he can criticize a kid who gets put with grinders and on the 4th line. We didn't draft him to play limited minutes or with grinders, we drafted him to be a top 6 forward. Give him consistent top 6 minutes with top 6 talent around him, that's the only way he's going to grow as a player. Yanking him up and down the lineup is only going to f' up his growth as a player. It happened with Legwand. It possibly drove Rads away. It's messing up Wilson. How many more young talents are we going to mess up?
If you are going to call out Wilson, lets talk about SK - last 10 games - 4pts. And Fisher last 10 games 3 points. Both logging way more ice time, and consistantly 1st line PP. Not quite sure why he would single him out. May as well throw in Hornqvist- last 10 games - 3 pts.


Last edited by Fortheloveofthegame: 03-07-2011 at 11:33 PM.
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03-08-2011, 01:12 AM
  #50
predfan98
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wilson;s game has gone into dipsy doodle fancy puck handling mode over the past several months. he's not doing the things that make him an effective player.
doesn't matter who he's playing with, if he plays like that , he's not playing well.

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