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Old
03-05-2011, 04:54 PM
  #26
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
The Oilers were going to bid seriously on Malkin it would look something like:

2011 1st rounder
2012 1st rounder
Any roster player who doesn't have a 4 stitched into their jersey.
Why would the Pens move Malkin for assets with unknown risks?

Picks are way too risky.

Again it would be Hall and then add from there.

Oiler fans can say they don't want to move Hall, cool. Pens fans don't want to move Malkin and there is zero reason to move him.

The Pens entire blueline is locked up long term, with very good depth on the farm.

Their goaltending is locked up long term.

Their center depth is the best in the league and locked up long term.

Their only weakness was wing, and they just added Neal who is only 23 and on a very good contract and will be a RFA when that ends.

They have zero cap problems and room to add another top 6 winger this Summer.

They also have Tangradi on the farm who could develop into a top 6 winger.

Why would they trade Malkin? For what, exactly?

Throwing picks and risky assets in the pot isn't going to sway Shero to move Malkin when he has no legit reason to even begin contemplating moving him.

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Old
03-05-2011, 04:55 PM
  #27
tempest2i
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Originally Posted by Brandinho View Post
Why does one of the best teams in the NHL trade for futures?

If Hall isn't coming Pittsburgh's way, you can't even make an offer for Malkin that wouldn't get laughed at. End of story.
*shrug*

A top 2 pick, an unknown pick next year, plus a roster player of your choice.

Clear up some salary, solidify your defence for years to come with Larsson or put up Landeskog.

meh, it was an offer

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Old
03-05-2011, 05:00 PM
  #28
wej20
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Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
*shrug*

A top 2 pick, an unknown pick next year, plus a roster player of your choice.

Clear up some salary, solidify your defence for years to come with Larsson or put up Landeskog.

meh, it was an offer
But you protected your two most enticing roster players.

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Old
03-05-2011, 05:04 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
But you protected your two most enticing roster players.
Chorney and Dubnyk are enticing roster players?

Can I interest you in a Paajarvi or an Omark?

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Old
03-05-2011, 05:14 PM
  #30
Brandinho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
Chorney and Dubnyk are enticing roster players?

Can I interest you in a Paajarvi or an Omark?
Sure.

Not for Malkin, though.

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Old
03-05-2011, 05:18 PM
  #31
tempest2i
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Why would the Pens move Malkin for assets with unknown risks?

Picks are way too risky.

Again it would be Hall and then add from there.

Oiler fans can say they don't want to move Hall, cool. Pens fans don't want to move Malkin and there is zero reason to move him.

The Pens entire blueline is locked up long term, with very good depth on the farm.

Their goaltending is locked up long term.

Their center depth is the best in the league and locked up long term.

Their only weakness was wing, and they just added Neal who is only 23 and on a very good contract and will be a RFA when that ends.

They have zero cap problems and room to add another top 6 winger this Summer.

They also have Tangradi on the farm who could develop into a top 6 winger.

Why would they trade Malkin? For what, exactly?

Throwing picks and risky assets in the pot isn't going to sway Shero to move Malkin when he has no legit reason to even begin contemplating moving him.
I'm not going to fill this thread arguing with a Pens fan about their depth and prospects because I'll be honest here, I don't have a clue what the Pens have that isn't out on the ice these days.

You guys have a good goalie and the best player in the NHL. You guys also have the second best center in the NHL who lives in the shadow of the best player. I don't know where Malkin's head is at. I don't know if he's happy with his role. But if he isn't happy with the role he has been given, I'd offer him the reins of a hopefully up and coming NHL team. A team that he would undeniably be Alpha Dog of.

The Oilers don't have a lot of veteran talent that can jump into the Pens lineup and start producing at an elite level. The Oilers do have Eberle and Hall who the team has pimped endlessly since they were gifted roster spots. Ebs and Hall are the faces of the rebuild. Tambo would be run out of town if he moved those guys.

Maybe this just means that the Oilers and Pens are bad trade partners, but I do feel like it's worth mentioning that a first or second overall draft pick is nothing to just dismiss as meaningless or worthless, even in this discussion.

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Old
03-05-2011, 05:25 PM
  #32
wej20
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Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
I'm not going to fill this thread arguing with a Pens fan about their depth and prospects because I'll be honest here, I don't have a clue what the Pens have that isn't out on the ice these days.

You guys have a good goalie and the best player in the NHL. You guys also have the second best center in the NHL who lives in the shadow of the best player. I don't know where Malkin's head is at. I don't know if he's happy with his role. But if he isn't happy with the role he has been given, I'd offer him the reins of a hopefully up and coming NHL team. A team that he would undeniably be Alpha Dog of.

The Oilers don't have a lot of veteran talent that can jump into the Pens lineup and start producing at an elite level. The Oilers do have Eberle and Hall who the team has pimped endlessly since they were gifted roster spots. Ebs and Hall are the faces of the rebuild. Tambo would be run out of town if he moved those guys.

Maybe this just means that the Oilers and Pens are bad trade partners, but I do feel like it's worth mentioning that a first or second overall draft pick is nothing to just dismiss as meaningless or worthless, even in this discussion.
if Pens are trading Malkin they want mostly young talent in the deal not veterans. 1st and 2nd overall pick aren't to be dismissed but we have no idea where the Oilers would finish next year and I guess we'd take Hemsky or MPS as the roster player but Hemsky's struggling with injuries and MPS isn't a lock to score 20 goals next season.

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Old
03-05-2011, 05:52 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
You guys have a good goalie and the best player in the NHL. You guys also have the second best center in the NHL who lives in the shadow of the best player. I don't know where Malkin's head is at. I don't know if he's happy with his role. But if he isn't happy with the role he has been given, I'd offer him the reins of a hopefully up and coming NHL team. A team that he would undeniably be Alpha Dog of.
That's always the de facto reasoning behind why Malkin might want to be moved to a new team, so let me just put that idea to bed:

Quote:
"I got very lucky that I got on the same team with Sidney Crosby. I don't know why many underrate his talent, say that he is 'over-promoted,' that he has been talked about since he was 14. To me he is the No. 1 player in the world. I won't say why other players are not as good as he is; to me he is the best. I played with a lot of guys.

"I don't think that if a player gets 120 points — for example, Alex Ovechkin or Henrik Sedin(notes) — then he is the best. To me the main criteria are, in the first place, it is work in practice, work in the locker room, work during games. Crosby gives 200 percent every time, whether it is a practice or a game. To me it was a huge example when I came to Pittsburgh. I had never seen such a worker. Moreover, Sidney participates in every team meeting, films commercials, gives a lot of interviews. He does it for the team, in the first place.

"We have a good, friendly relationship with Crosby. In principle, I have good relationships with all the guys. Sidney is a quiet boy. [Laughs] Actually, not a boy, but a man. Certainly without a crown on his head, quite adequate, very demanding to himself, very forthcoming, fun. He can party just like everyone else."
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...urn=nhl-244502

And...

Quote:
You always say that you love playing with Sid on the same line. How easy is it to play with him?

Of course it's easy. We understand each other like no other. He can keep the puck so well, we pass to each other knowing where we are. Tonight we spent a lot of time on the power play in the Capitals' zone, because we ‘feel' each other, we open up and know how to keep the puck in certain moments. Max Talbot(notes) and [Matt] Cooke try to play a little simpler, but Sid is a lot more confident as a player. He can always give a great pass. Of course it's so easy to play with him.

The most common criticism about your play at center is that you can be a liability on face-offs.

Of course I heard, it was the case. But I work a lot on my face offs at practice and now I win a lot of them. We played against Phoenix not long ago and we even scored off of a face off. I work on it a lot. I think my stats are now a lot better than what they were last year. Sometimes, when it doesn't come out right, I switch places with Talbot who takes face offs. Unfortunately, [faceoffs] don't always come out right.

Sid and I work together at practices, we all learn a lot from him. You look at the way he works on his weaknesses, and everyone tries just as hard to work on theirs. I wouldn't say that I got 50 percent better at it than before, but maybe 10 percent or so. I will just keep working, keep improving. Sid helps a lot by giving me advice. It's always good because look at how difficult it is to play against him."
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...aining-content

He likes it just fine playing in Pittsburgh with Sid, thanks.

Quote:
The Oilers don't have a lot of veteran talent that can jump into the Pens lineup and start producing at an elite level. The Oilers do have Eberle and Hall who the team has pimped endlessly since they were gifted roster spots. Ebs and Hall are the faces of the rebuild. Tambo would be run out of town if he moved those guys.
Now imagine the Oilers had recently won a Cup with Eberle winning the Conn Smythe after two 100+ point seasons, and you'll approximate how Pittsburghers would feel about Shero if he dealt Malkin.

Quote:
Maybe this just means that the Oilers and Pens are bad trade partners, but I do feel like it's worth mentioning that a first or second overall draft pick is nothing to just dismiss as meaningless or worthless, even in this discussion.
Those picks mean much less to a contender than they do to a team in the middle of a rebuild.

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:02 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
No. Contenders don't trade a 24 year old all-world center for a soon-to-be UFA, a small 2nd line pivot, and a magic bean.

Even if he did have a rough season.
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Or 2.
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
as an oiler fan I agree


Hemsky--when healthy can be a point a game man
Gagner--could be a good second line center

you don't get that for a guy that scored over 100pts twice

to even get the PEns attention that oilers would need to start with Hall or the 2011 first overall pick before adding Gagner and Hemsky and oilers wont do that deal
Joe Thornton says Hi

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:07 PM
  #35
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Joe Thornton says Hi
Joe Thornton can't speak; he's choking.

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:08 PM
  #36
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It makes me laugh when other teams try and justify there trades by saying Malkin is over paid and he is no where near as good as he was. Then why do you want him on your team? Do people not see all of the actual useless contracts in the NHL: Gomez, Komisarek, drury etc... You absolutely can not put a player who on any given night can straight up purely win a team a game in that category. Malkin IMO is more important to the pens then say any rw outside of the top 5 would be, and even there it would be close. I would think that legit oilers that would have to come the other way would be hall, and eberle is very borderline as I do not think he will be elite. Outside of the oilers there are not even many players where there team needs malkin. The only one off the top of my head would be parise for malkin. The pens management have structured this team to be competitive for years.

They have weak RW that is it after the Neal trade. Unreal defense, and letang is quickly becoming one of the best. Fleury is one of the best goalies now and well into the future. Also the pens bottom 6 even with Staal on the second line is competitive with other teams.

If the pens sign a rw and move Staal to center the pens 2nd line with malkin playing rw they are going to be one of the top teams in the nhl. No need for a team of that quality to move there 2nd best player. who cares if he has been overpaid the last 2 years just means less money in his next extension.

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:10 PM
  #37
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Joe Thornton says Hi
You guys are buds? Ask ol' Joe where he's keeping his Conn Smythe these days.

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:18 PM
  #38
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Joe Thornton says Hi
Using one of the worst trades of the past decade doesn't exactly help your argument.

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:28 PM
  #39
Brandinho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
You guys are buds? Ask ol' Joe where he's keeping his Conn Smythe these days.
Hey remember like 3 years ago when you said Jumbo Joe wouldn't sniff another Conn Smythe?

Hey look, he can't even score at a PPG pace any more.

If he keeps this up, his atrocious playoff production won't seem like choking anymore.

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:39 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Value's decent but I'd pass, one of Hall or Eberle would have to be in deal.
Um... since you're the 2nd person to suggest something like this before I'm halfway through the first page I suggest that we just say it would never happen in a million years.

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Old
03-05-2011, 06:42 PM
  #41
Jules Winnfield
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It makes me laugh when other teams try and justify there trades by saying Malkin is over paid and he is no where near as good as he was. Then why do you want him on your team?
I've always wondered this as well. Yet when that same player they complain about that is now traded to their team, they defend him to no end.


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03-05-2011, 06:51 PM
  #42
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Guess I failed with this attempted proposal. Understandable in some sense, Malkin has already accomplished a ton in his young career, but I do think that:

A) Pens fans will have a tough time sustaining depth at forward (one poster already said they'll have 3.5 mil to shop for another forward - so the other 5 forwards you'll need to add will all be making exactly league minimum??? How is Comrie doing anyway?).

B) There's no guarantee Malkin is the same player after an injury of this magnitude. I though the value was fair considering the risk attached. Guess I'm being told otherwise.

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Old
03-05-2011, 07:02 PM
  #43
wej20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Joe Thornton says Hi
Thornton had had one 100 point season and little playoff success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Guess I failed with this attempted proposal. Understandable in some sense, Malkin has already accomplished a ton in his young career, but I do think that:

A) Pens fans will have a tough time sustaining depth at forward (one poster already said they'll have 3.5 mil to shop for another forward - so the other 5 forwards you'll need to add will all be making exactly league minimum??? How is Comrie doing anyway?).


B) There's no guarantee Malkin is the same player after an injury of this magnitude. I though the value was fair considering the risk attached. Guess I'm being told otherwise.
A) Provided the cap goes up by the rumoured 2-3 million then Pens will have a decent chunk of change to put towards another top 6 winger. Most of the guys we're replacing are bottom 6 depth and we already have Vitale waiting in the wings to fill a spot, Jeffrey will be cheap to re-sign, Adams will probably be back at a slight raise and one of Rupp/Asham at similar to what they make now. Comrie's still on IR but isn't too far away though I'm not sure how much of a shot he's going to get once he comes back.

B) There's no guarantee Hemsky is the same player after he comes back from whatever his latest injury.

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03-05-2011, 07:16 PM
  #44
Roof Daddy
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Thornton had had one 100 point season and little playoff success.



A) Provided the cap goes up by the rumoured 2-3 million then Pens will have a decent chunk of change to put towards another top 6 winger. Most of the guys we're replacing are bottom 6 depth and we already have Vitale waiting in the wings to fill a spot, Jeffrey will be cheap to re-sign, Adams will probably be back at a slight raise and one of Rupp/Asham at similar to what they make now. Comrie's still on IR but isn't too far away though I'm not sure how much of a shot he's going to get once he comes back.

B) There's no guarantee Hemsky is the same player after he comes back from whatever his latest injury.
I was operating under that premise. D and goal - set. At F - if the cap were to go to 61.5 (raise of 2.1) you'd have 5 forwards to sign for 5.75 million. So what kind of top 6 UFA are you getting? The starting price is probably 3 mil, and that's for fringe top 6ers (Ryder, Frolov, Vrbata) or reclamation projects (Gagne, Sturm) or the over the hill crowd (Arnott, Langenbrunner). And now you've got to sign 4 more forwards at an average of less than 700,000 per player while replacing guys like Talbot and Dupuis, not to mention what an arbitrator awards Kennedy who's setting himself up for a minimum 1.5mil arbitration award. Do the Pens walk away from an arbitration ruling just to sign a questionable top 6 UFA?

Not sure they have the decent chunk you seem to think they have.

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Old
03-05-2011, 07:22 PM
  #45
Jules Winnfield
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
I was operating under that premise. D and goal - set. At F - if the cap were to go to 61.5 (raise of 2.1) you'd have 5 forwards to sign for 5.75 million. So what kind of top 6 UFA are you getting? The starting price is probably 3 mil, and that's for fringe top 6ers (Ryder, Frolov, Vrbata) or reclamation projects (Gagne, Sturm) or the over the hill crowd (Arnott, Langenbrunner). And now you've got to sign 4 more forwards at an average of less than 700,000 per player while replacing guys like Talbot and Dupuis, not to mention what an arbitrator awards Kennedy who's setting himself up for a minimum 1.5mil arbitration award. Do the Pens walk away from an arbitration ruling just to sign a questionable top 6 UFA?

Not sure they have the decent chunk you seem to think they have.
You are forgetting we already have Letestu, Jeffrey, and Vitale to fill some of those spots next year and deservedly so. Their cap hits are .625k, RFA no higher than .625k currently making .500k, and .512k

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Old
03-05-2011, 07:56 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
I was operating under that premise. D and goal - set. At F - if the cap were to go to 61.5 (raise of 2.1) you'd have 5 forwards to sign for 5.75 million. So what kind of top 6 UFA are you getting? The starting price is probably 3 mil, and that's for fringe top 6ers (Ryder, Frolov, Vrbata) or reclamation projects (Gagne, Sturm) or the over the hill crowd (Arnott, Langenbrunner). And now you've got to sign 4 more forwards at an average of less than 700,000 per player while replacing guys like Talbot and Dupuis, not to mention what an arbitrator awards Kennedy who's setting himself up for a minimum 1.5mil arbitration award. Do the Pens walk away from an arbitration ruling just to sign a questionable top 6 UFA?

Not sure they have the decent chunk you seem to think they have.
Well obviously we don't have the money for the top end targets but we don't need top end guys just solid top 6 talent. Also got a guy like Dustin Jeffrey who could be used as a decent trade chip. Wouldn't call a guy like Ryder a fringe top 6er.

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Old
03-05-2011, 07:59 PM
  #47
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
I was operating under that premise. D and goal - set. At F - if the cap were to go to 61.5 (raise of 2.1) you'd have 5 forwards to sign for 5.75 million. So what kind of top 6 UFA are you getting? The starting price is probably 3 mil, and that's for fringe top 6ers (Ryder, Frolov, Vrbata) or reclamation projects (Gagne, Sturm) or the over the hill crowd (Arnott, Langenbrunner). And now you've got to sign 4 more forwards at an average of less than 700,000 per player while replacing guys like Talbot and Dupuis, not to mention what an arbitrator awards Kennedy who's setting himself up for a minimum 1.5mil arbitration award. Do the Pens walk away from an arbitration ruling just to sign a questionable top 6 UFA?

Not sure they have the decent chunk you seem to think they have.
Again, the Pens now have Neal and Kunitz, and with their farm depth ready to step in on the cheap and the guys they need to re-sign, they will have between 3-4m left to sign an UFA winger once the rest of the roster is filled out.

I can't make it anymore clear than that.

So no, having Malkin on the roster isn't going to hurt their depth at fwd.

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03-05-2011, 09:41 PM
  #48
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Well obviously we don't have the money for the top end targets but we don't need top end guys just solid top 6 talent. Also got a guy like Dustin Jeffrey who could be used as a decent trade chip. Wouldn't call a guy like Ryder a fringe top 6er.
Based on his play this year, you're right. But what about his 33pts in a full season the year before? But we can forget that, because the year before that he had a 27 goal, 53 pt season - certainly enough to remove the "fringe" tag.... if it weren't for the fact he only put up 31pts the year before that. Michael Ryder has a good blend of skill, tenacity and release but is about as consistent as a weatherman. Fringe top 6er who will cost north of 3mil per.

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Old
03-05-2011, 09:55 PM
  #49
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actually if i were the pens id never trade malkin.

i mean... who'd want to trade a player that has "3 years super league"


for a guy that has that kind of experience, oilers would have to trade hall, eberle and their 1st rounder

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Old
03-05-2011, 10:51 PM
  #50
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Joe Thornton can't speak; he's choking.

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