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Old
03-06-2011, 12:02 AM
  #51
luongofreak1
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Joe Thornton can't speak; he's choking.

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Old
03-06-2011, 12:33 AM
  #52
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Fans keep seeming to think their value=real value! GM have proven many times what fans want is not what GM's pay. Malkin will cost alot, what the OP have gave us is not enough.

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Old
03-06-2011, 12:58 AM
  #53
JTG
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
I was operating under that premise. D and goal - set. At F - if the cap were to go to 61.5 (raise of 2.1) you'd have 5 forwards to sign for 5.75 million. So what kind of top 6 UFA are you getting? The starting price is probably 3 mil, and that's for fringe top 6ers (Ryder, Frolov, Vrbata) or reclamation projects (Gagne, Sturm) or the over the hill crowd (Arnott, Langenbrunner). And now you've got to sign 4 more forwards at an average of less than 700,000 per player while replacing guys like Talbot and Dupuis, not to mention what an arbitrator awards Kennedy who's setting himself up for a minimum 1.5mil arbitration award. Do the Pens walk away from an arbitration ruling just to sign a questionable top 6 UFA?

Not sure they have the decent chunk you seem to think they have.
Neal (2.875) - Crosby (8.7) - Jeffrey (0.500)
Kunitz (3.75) - Staal (4.0) - Malkin (8.7)
Cooke (1.8) - Letestu (0.625) - Kennedy (~0.850)
Connor (0.500) - Vitale (0.500) - Adams (0.600)

Letang (3.5) - Orpik (3.75)
Martin (5.0) - Michalek (4.0)
Niskanen (1.5) - Free Agent
Engelland (0.550)

Fleury (5.0)
Johnson (0.600)

Total: 57.3

So if the cap goes up to 61.5, Shero has about 4 million to play around with to upgrade the team. Just mass amounts of maneuverability.

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Old
03-06-2011, 02:27 AM
  #54
Roof Daddy
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Neal (2.875) - Crosby (8.7) - Jeffrey (0.500)
Kunitz (3.75) - Staal (4.0) - Malkin (8.7)
Cooke (1.8) - Letestu (0.625) - Kennedy (~0.850)
Connor (0.500) - Vitale (0.500) - Adams (0.600)

Letang (3.5) - Orpik (3.75)
Martin (5.0) - Michalek (4.0)
Niskanen (1.5) - Free Agent
Engelland (0.550)

Fleury (5.0)
Johnson (0.600)

Total: 57.3

So if the cap goes up to 61.5, Shero has about 4 million to play around with to upgrade the team. Just mass amounts of maneuverability.
I guess he does have 4 mil to play around with, except for the fact that:

A) Somehow you have an RFA Dustin Jeffrey making league minimum. He must receive a 10% raise just to be qualified, which he'd likely spit at given how well he's played.

B) Have Kennedy accepting a 100,000 dollar raise despite having his best season so far and holding arbitration rights. Last year Clarke Macarthur was awarded 2.4 million by an arbitrator for a 35 pt season. What do you think Kennedy will get?

C) Every team in the league would love to add a solid bottom pair defenceman named Free Agent and pay him nothing.

D) You might want to add at least one (if not two) forwards to the active roster in case of injury. Maybe Tangradi (making roughly 840,000).

So lets do a little more realistic math here. Put down Jeffrey at 850,000 minimum. Put Kennedy down for 2mil minimum (pretty modest if you take the Macarthur example). Scratch Free Agent and put in Ben Lovejoy at 525,000. Put Tangradi into the lineup and use one of the lesser guys as your 13th forward and there you have it, 1.1-1.3 you can tack on in salary (plus the money of the guy you take out). So you could add a 3.3mil player if you chose to walk away from Kennedy.

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03-06-2011, 04:41 AM
  #55
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^ Haha 2 mill for TK. He can hit the road, then.

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Old
03-06-2011, 06:02 AM
  #56
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Because it dates back to the ancient Ottoman practice of taking the sons of the conquered to serve in their armies.
get with the times....

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Old
03-06-2011, 10:02 AM
  #57
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
I guess he does have 4 mil to play around with, except for the fact that:

A) Somehow you have an RFA Dustin Jeffrey making league minimum. He must receive a 10% raise just to be qualified, which he'd likely spit at given how well he's played.

B) Have Kennedy accepting a 100,000 dollar raise despite having his best season so far and holding arbitration rights. Last year Clarke Macarthur was awarded 2.4 million by an arbitrator for a 35 pt season. What do you think Kennedy will get?

C) Every team in the league would love to add a solid bottom pair defenceman named Free Agent and pay him nothing.

D) You might want to add at least one (if not two) forwards to the active roster in case of injury. Maybe Tangradi (making roughly 840,000).

So lets do a little more realistic math here. Put down Jeffrey at 850,000 minimum. Put Kennedy down for 2mil minimum (pretty modest if you take the Macarthur example). Scratch Free Agent and put in Ben Lovejoy at 525,000. Put Tangradi into the lineup and use one of the lesser guys as your 13th forward and there you have it, 1.1-1.3 you can tack on in salary (plus the money of the guy you take out). So you could add a 3.3mil player if you chose to walk away from Kennedy.
TK for 2m? You can't be serious... It is obvious you haven't paid attention to the contracts Shero has handed out in the past.

Also, last time I checked, Macarthur is making a shade over million because Atl. walked away from his contract. Or did you conveniently forget that?

Jeffrey is a RFA with no arbitration rights. He isn't going to spit at anything Shero offers him. He will take his escalator and work for his big contract like every other NHL player in his position has done in the past.

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Old
03-06-2011, 10:49 AM
  #58
James Duthie
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Trading a Conn Smythe winner?

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Old
03-06-2011, 11:22 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
TK for 2m? You can't be serious... It is obvious you haven't paid attention to the contracts Shero has handed out in the past.

Also, last time I checked, Macarthur is making a shade over million because Atl. walked away from his contract. Or did you conveniently forget that?
Yeah, and where is Macarthur playing right now? Not Atlanta. Simply pointed out that if Kennedy is going to be in that projected line-up, thats what it will cost the Pens. Wouldn't surprise me if they do walk away from an arbitrators ruling and TK becomes a free agent. But he's a 24yr old whose never made more than 775,000 on pace to be a 40 pt guy. If he wants to avoid arbitration to remain a Pen it would still likely take an offer around 1.75. I'm sure a team like the Sens and Leafs wouldn't flinch at paying a guy like that those dollars.

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03-06-2011, 11:34 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by James Duthie View Post
Trading a Conn Smythe winner?
Yep. It never happens.

The last 20 winners:

Toews, Malkin, Zetterberg, Niedermayer, Ward, Richards, Giguere, Lidstrom, Roy, Stevens, Nieuwendyk, Yzerman, Vernon, Sakic, C.Lemiuex, Leetch, Roy (again), M.Lemieux, M.Lemieux (again), Ranford.

Bolded have been traded in their career. It can be argued about adding Stevens because he retired a Devil so its not like he was traded after he won the Smythe. But it happens.

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Old
03-06-2011, 12:44 PM
  #61
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Trading for malkin would destroy an organization for many years.

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Old
03-06-2011, 12:49 PM
  #62
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Yeah, and where is Macarthur playing right now? Not Atlanta. Simply pointed out that if Kennedy is going to be in that projected line-up, thats what it will cost the Pens. Wouldn't surprise me if they do walk away from an arbitrators ruling and TK becomes a free agent. But he's a 24yr old whose never made more than 775,000 on pace to be a 40 pt guy. If he wants to avoid arbitration to remain a Pen it would still likely take an offer around 1.75. I'm sure a team like the Sens and Leafs wouldn't flinch at paying a guy like that those dollars.
TK is also streaky as hell but is a hard working third liner, albeit one that can be replaced quite easily.

Shero won't pay a third liner 2m a season. It just won't happen.

Shero will find a cheaper alternative.

With the development of Letestu and Jeffrey, plus the addition of Neal on a great salary cap friendly contract, Shero has a ton of flexibility on what he can do with his roster.

The UFA market for wingers is weak anyway, so he may just keep that cap space until the deadline.

Either way, the Pens are in really good shape cap wise, and have zero reasons to move Malkin, which is what this argument boils down to.

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Old
03-06-2011, 01:22 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Yep. It never happens.

The last 20 winners:

Toews, Malkin, Zetterberg, Niedermayer, Ward, Richards, Giguere, Lidstrom, Roy, Stevens, Nieuwendyk, Yzerman, Vernon, Sakic, C.Lemiuex, Leetch, Roy (again), M.Lemieux, M.Lemieux (again), Ranford.

Bolded have been traded in their career. It can be argued about adding Stevens because he retired a Devil so its not like he was traded after he won the Smythe. But it happens.
Malkin has won the Conn Smythe, put up multiple 100+ point seasons, loves where he plays, is still only 24, and the Pens are under no cap stress to move him.

It benefits your argument to look at each of those variables in a vacuum, but trades aren't made in a vacuum, and the cumulative impact of all those factors suggest that the likelihood of Malkin being moved is pretty much nil.

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:40 PM
  #64
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Why does one of the best teams in the NHL trade for futures?

If Hall isn't coming Pittsburgh's way, you can't even make an offer for Malkin that wouldn't get laughed at. End of story.
yeahh lets trade a guy who could be better than malkin,just as good or just under, is younger and we still have to add a **** ton? no freaking dice, pens fans are delusional.

Mps + 2011 1st is WAY more than enough, franchise player + future superstar for a dropping down over paid franchise player in Malkin.

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:52 PM
  #65
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Likely ends there as well.


Pittsburgh can keep Malkin.

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:55 PM
  #66
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Now imagine the Oilers had recently won a Cup with Eberle winning the Conn Smythe after two 100+ point seasons, and you'll approximate how Pittsburghers would feel about Shero if he dealt Malkin.
Fair enough. Give it 3 or 4 years and we'll know exactly how that feels.

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:57 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Ementy View Post
yeahh lets trade a guy who could be better than malkin,just as good or just under, is younger and we still have to add a **** ton? no freaking dice, pens fans are delusional.

Mps + 2011 1st is WAY more than enough, franchise player + future superstar for a dropping down over paid franchise player in Malkin.
I like how you make Malkin out to be so terrible and 2 unknowns out to be so great.

Pens won't trade Malkin for futures. Draft picks and/or young players that have yet to establish themselves as anything in the league aren't going to cut it. Would you trade Hall for a guy like MPS and a high 1st? I doubt it, so understand the Pens wouldn't trade Malkin for that either.

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Old
03-06-2011, 06:01 PM
  #68
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I like how you make Malkin out to be so terrible and 2 unknowns out to be so great.

Pens won't trade Malkin for futures. Draft picks and/or young players that have yet to establish themselves as anything in the league aren't going to cut it. Would you trade Hall for a guy like MPS and a high 1st? I doubt it, so understand the Pens wouldn't trade Malkin for that either.
And then there's the fact that 18 months ago Malkin was the best player in the world and Taylor hall was riding buses in Ontario.

We'll keep Malkin. The Oilers can have the magic beans.

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03-06-2011, 06:05 PM
  #69
Mr Jiggyfly
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yeahh lets trade a guy who could be better than malkin,just as good or just under, is younger and we still have to add a **** ton? no freaking dice, pens fans are delusional.
What player on the Oilers will ever be in Malkin's class let alone better than him?

This is the kind of **** that always cracks me up on these boards.... players like Malkin rarely come around, but since your team drafted a player #1, he has to be as good as Malkin, right?

Reality is knocking at the door... better go answer...

Quote:
Mps + 2011 1st is WAY more than enough, franchise player + future superstar for a dropping down over paid franchise player in Malkin.
Franchise player? Future superstar?

I answered the door for you... reality just said those are two risky assets who haven't proven a damn thing and I am 100% certain won't be as good as Malkin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deanmoriarty View Post


Pittsburgh can keep Malkin.
What a bummer that will be... being forced to keep a generational talent when the Pens can just trade him for risky assets that will never pan out to be anywhere near his level.

So tempting...

But then again the Pens need to trade Malkin because they will never have wingers for him and Crosby... oh wait...

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Old
03-06-2011, 06:09 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Ementy View Post
yeahh lets trade a guy who could be better than malkin,just as good or just under, is younger and we still have to add a **** ton? no freaking dice, pens fans are delusional.

Mps + 2011 1st is WAY more than enough, franchise player + future superstar for a dropping down over paid franchise player in Malkin.
Haha that is a lot of if's there bud. Hall will be good but comparing a player in his first year to the likes of one of the leagues best is a little far fetched. I think edmonton still has to add if they send Hall. The pens do not need Hall as he is a LW i believe. Also Malkin got 37 points in 43 games this year and that is considered a slump. And in his rookie year had 85 points. No matter how you look at this Malkin>Hall. So then if the oilers actually want a legit number once center do not throw out these bogus trades to a team who doesnt need your prospects. The pens are structured to win, the oilers blow.... just deal with it, keep your young players who have "potential" and the pens can keep there young players who are elite .

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Old
03-06-2011, 06:11 PM
  #71
Roof Daddy
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
And then there's the fact that 18 months ago Malkin was the best player in the world and Taylor hall was riding buses in Ontario.

We'll keep Malkin. The Oilers can have the magic beans.
Because he won the Conne Smythe? Okay, then I'm sure Pens fans have no problem calling Toews (the same guy they could have taken over Staal) as the current best player in the world, given he's the reigning playoff MVP, right? I guess we could even put Richards and Giguere ahead of Crosby, given they have their names on that hardware and Sid doesn't.

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Old
03-06-2011, 06:52 PM
  #72
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Because he won the Conne Smythe?
I was thinking because he won the Art Ross, but that's a nice trophy in his case, too.

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Old
03-06-2011, 07:34 PM
  #73
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Fair enough. Give it 3 or 4 years and we'll know exactly how that feels.
Could be. If any young player shows up in big moments, it's Eberle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Because he won the Conne Smythe? Okay, then I'm sure Pens fans have no problem calling Toews (the same guy they could have taken over Staal) as the current best player in the world, given he's the reigning playoff MVP, right? I guess we could even put Richards and Giguere ahead of Crosby, given they have their names on that hardware and Sid doesn't.
Uh, or the fact that he was the first player since Lemieux almost 20 years earlier to win both the Art Ross (after coming in 2nd the year before) and the Conn Smythe, and that Conn Smythe was won by putting up more points than any forward ever not named Gretzky or Lemieux.

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Old
03-06-2011, 08:44 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Ementy View Post
yeahh lets trade a guy who could be better than malkin,just as good or just under, is younger and we still have to add a **** ton? no freaking dice, pens fans are delusional.

Mps + 2011 1st is WAY more than enough, franchise player + future superstar for a dropping down over paid franchise player in Malkin.
How has Mps already established himself as a franchise player??? A player yet to play in the NHL is a superstar?? Please explain your logic to me.

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Old
03-06-2011, 11:46 PM
  #75
deanmoriarty
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
What player on the Oilers will ever be in Malkin's class let alone better than him?

This is the kind of **** that always cracks me up on these boards.... players like Malkin rarely come around, but since your team drafted a player #1, he has to be as good as Malkin, right?

Reality is knocking at the door... better go answer...



Franchise player? Future superstar?

I answered the door for you... reality just said those are two risky assets who haven't proven a damn thing and I am 100% certain won't be as good as Malkin.



What a bummer that will be... being forced to keep a generational talent when the Pens can just trade him for risky assets that will never pan out to be anywhere near his level.

So tempting...

But then again the Pens need to trade Malkin because they will never have wingers for him and Crosby... oh wait...
Hall could very well end up being the better player over time, wouldn't surprise me in the least. Let's check back in 15 years.

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