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Old
03-06-2011, 11:44 PM
  #1
Quezzle E
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Winning Now

There seems to be a divide here on whether the Bruins are trying to build for a future dynasty or win a cup in the immediate future (this year, next).

Then there is the debate about what we need to succeed. Some say elite game breaking talent, for a while it was a PMD. Well Chia got that. Kaberle was probably the best available answer and we gave up a lot to get him.

My question is, why not go all the way? Bruins fans are in agreement that we have 2 top ten goaltenders in Thomas and Rask. Something any team would love to have, and a problem I'd rather have then not have. But when playoffs come around, lets be honest the team is going to ride their number 1 pony while number 2 gets to enjoy a nice seat to watch.

I think that if management is set on winning now, they need to move excess wealth to improve another area. Thomas I believe has full NTC for at least one more year, is the fan fave, and on top of that is going to be the best stopper in the NHL for the second time in the past three years. That is A) hard to move B) something you don't want to move. Which leaves Rask as the odd man out. Now I'm sure I'll receive some hate for this because we've seen and still believe that he can be a great goalie today and for many years down the road.

Here are my reasons for trading Rask:

High Value. He's young, has yet to falter in the NHL (Last years playoffs I do not blame on him), proven his talent level

Overvalued. I love the guy, and as much as I love thomas too, I'd rather keep Rask over Thomas. But Boston plays a defensive system that makes their goalies look good. If Thomas keeps his lead, that makes this the third straight year a Bruins Goalie has led the league in GAA (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not saying he is not a top goalie, but i think a lot of goalies could put up significantly better numbers in CJ's system and behind our D.

Risk. He proved himself capable as a #1 NHL goaltender last year. everything I hear says he's very mature and he's taking the role of Thomas' backup in stride and making the most of it. But he deserves to be the starter on an NHL team. Limited playing time will probably decrease his upcoming RFA contract. You can hope, but I don't think it's fair to assume Rask will be fine playing second fiddle next year and maybe the year after that should Thomas not release the number 1 status. He would be, by my count, the starter on 20 NHL teams, it would only be human for him to want more of an opportunity.


As far as return goes, I have no idea. Goaltenders don't seem to be in shortage around the league. But Rask is a top shelf, young stud. Dream situation for the Bruins would be packaging the Tor first and Rask+ to the Devils for Parise. But according to Devils fans, NJ is not open to trading Parise. Another one I imagined would be Rask+ to Florida for Booth and Markstrom, then grooming Markstrom to be Thomas' eventual replacement. Or maybe the Bruins have a lot of faith in Khudobin and he could backup Thomas and then there wouldn't be a need to get a G prospect back.

What do you think? Is it worth trading Rask in the offseason to try and go all out for the cup now? Or do you hold on to him, and be happy with probably having 2 of the top players at their position splitting time?

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03-07-2011, 12:00 AM
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While I respect the effort you put forth in the post, I 100% disagree with the premise. Thomas is having a stellar year, no denying that. That being said, Tuukka is the future and will not be going anywhere. Timmy has started to come back to Earth recently and there is no way he will keep it up for the length of the contract, it isn't fair to him for B's fans to expect him to keep it up for the rest of the contract. Tuukka will be the Bruins goaltender, most likely next year. As far as this season goes, Timmy IS the number one heading into the playoffs, that being said, if he falters Rask will be healthy and ready to go. Since the deadline has past already, this is a non-issue for this year, but as far as the future goes; No do not trade Rask, he is the goalie of the future for the B's.

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03-07-2011, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quezzle E View Post
What do you think? Is it worth trading Rask in the offseason to try and go all out for the cup now? Or do you hold on to him, and be happy with probably having 2 of the top players at their position splitting time?
My question for you is do you think Rask's return would garner a top player at his respective position. Because, if no, I feel that it wouldn't be worth it. We've all seen how Timmy plays when he gets gassed.

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03-07-2011, 12:28 AM
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I'm not one to accurately value players, and don't pretend to. But I'd say straight up, no Rask alone does not get you top line talent. It seems that there are a few teams set with there franchise goalie, 9 by my count (not including the Bruins). 7 teams with young unproven/top prospects that wouldn't be interested. 8 more with average/acceptable goalies that might not see the Rask as enough of an upgrade to make it worthwhile or they are content with their situation. That leaves 5 teams with low hopes right now for a franchise goalie.

Tampa Bay
New Jersey
Islanders
Colorado
Edmonton

Looking at that list there isn't much to be had. I mentioned Parise, but thats a long longshot. Maybe the Islanders would consider a Rask for Okposo swap? Or Josh Bailey? I'm not sure how available Statsny is in Col, and I'm sure Edmonton be willing to start another Hemsky rumor, but I don't think thats fair return. Tampa is interesting as they may also feel a bit of a push to win now and to acquire a guy like Rask they may be one team that would overpay. How is something around Connoly sound?

Outside of that, you could hope that phoenix can't afford Yandle and we could build something around Rask and Tor 1st for Yandle + Bryzgalof

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03-07-2011, 04:20 AM
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Keep both. 2012-2013 is just one year we have a big cap hit. Kelly and Boychuk come off replacing them internally saves whatever Tuukka's raise will be.

If you trade anyone this offseason it is Thomas, but I don't think a team puts a package on the table worthy of trading possibly the best player in the game for. Noone in the East is going ot give us thier best roster players. If a fair offer was made you listen though because that includes a top liner or top pairing D man. I listen if an offer like that comes in for Rask but it has to work cap wise and be for Rask alone not him and Seguin or something.

We can handle one year of paying the goalies 8-9 mil. Also I think if Thomas is playing well when his deal expires there will be a big payday elsewhere he will have to take and it will be a bad 35+ contract we can't be offering.

Hell have 3 chances to win a cup in the playoffs, if he doesn't do it we are not going to resign him. Do you get that? Can you now tell me why we should ditch Rask and not have him waiting in the wings?

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03-07-2011, 06:33 AM
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I think they have the tools to win now with a stable full of NHL looking prospects still on to come and a core of young players playing significant roles right now with the B`s, this doesn`t look to me as though Chia and Co. are focused on just winning now, it looks to me as though they are diligently building a solid mix of youth and vets to be a team who`s name is consistently in the conversation about a Cup.

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03-07-2011, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
I think they have the tools to win now with a stable full of NHL looking prospects still on to come and a core of young players playing significant roles right now with the B`s, this doesn`t look to me as though Chia and Co. are focused on just winning now, it looks to me as though they are diligently building a solid mix of youth and vets to be a team who`s name is consistently in the conversation about a Cup.
Aside the elite offensive skill that i still think the team is lacking, the personnel is pretty much set. Our young prospects look good but we still have a consistency problem when it becomes to our best players. Krecji and Horton are streaky as hell. Of course, if these two players are showing the same form as the last 5-6 games, the Bruins might find themselves in a very good position. Problem is: we simply don't know and this consistency problem is something that plague the team for quite some time, now. That's why i'm so reluctant to put the " contender " tag on this team. They didn't showed up against SJ ( 2-0 loss ), against Detroit and the effort against Pittsburg was simply inexcusable. These kind of teams can win a 1st round but rarely go all the way.

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03-07-2011, 08:09 AM
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I personally look to trade Thomas in the offseason, I think the time is right. Use that money elsewhere, and his value should be fairly substantial (though goalies don't often fetch much in return).

My gut tells me they keep both, and that doesn't really bother me either.

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03-07-2011, 08:11 AM
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Still pushing Thomas + for Hossa in the offseason.

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03-07-2011, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Quezzle E View Post
What do you think? Is it worth trading Rask in the offseason to try and go all out for the cup now? Or do you hold on to him, and be happy with probably having 2 of the top players at their position splitting time?
Can't we at least wait for this regular season to end, and see how Thomas plays in the post-season, before arguing about what the team should do in the off-season to win the Cup "now"? I mean, there's a 'now' that's closer to happening before the 'now' you are referring to.

There are just too many variables that would have to play out before sensibly arguing about what to do with Rask in the future: Does Thomas carry the team in the playoffs without looking tired? Does Thomas not show any wear & tear after carrying the load for so much of the season/post-season? Does the team get to the ECF or Cup but not because of or in spite of Thomas' play? (etc)

Currently, and with all things considered, I don't see many good arguments about trading Rask - this isn't an older team with a closing window, but is a young team that seemingly has its best days ahead of it. Honestly, I'm still thinking that Thomas (playoff performance pending) is more likely to be dealt in the off-season than Rask.

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03-07-2011, 08:14 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Quezzle E View Post
I'm not one to accurately value players, and don't pretend to. But I'd say straight up, no Rask alone does not get you top line talent. It seems that there are a few teams set with there franchise goalie, 9 by my count (not including the Bruins). 7 teams with young unproven/top prospects that wouldn't be interested. 8 more with average/acceptable goalies that might not see the Rask as enough of an upgrade to make it worthwhile or they are content with their situation. That leaves 5 teams with low hopes right now for a franchise goalie.

Tampa Bay
New Jersey
Islanders
Colorado
Edmonton

Looking at that list there isn't much to be had. I mentioned Parise, but thats a long longshot. Maybe the Islanders would consider a Rask for Okposo swap? Or Josh Bailey? I'm not sure how available Statsny is in Col, and I'm sure Edmonton be willing to start another Hemsky rumor, but I don't think thats fair return. Tampa is interesting as they may also feel a bit of a push to win now and to acquire a guy like Rask they may be one team that would overpay. How is something around Connoly sound?

Outside of that, you could hope that phoenix can't afford Yandle and we could build something around Rask and Tor 1st for Yandle + Bryzgalof

The problem with trading goalies is historically teams dont get the best value in return. Goalies are not like position players they do not yield the same return that a stud defenseman would. In saying that the return for Tuukka Rask would probably be somewhere in the second line forward range which does not help the Bruins at all. Josh Bailey is a heck of a player but he doesnt provide even close to the value that Tuukka Rask does.

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03-07-2011, 08:15 AM
  #12
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I don't like the idea of trading Rask. Thomas isn't getting any younger, and in a few years we would be looking for a young goalie that could become an elite goalie.

The B's have that now, and I'd hate to see it slip away only to have to fix it later down the line.

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03-07-2011, 08:22 AM
  #13
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I don't like the idea of trading Rask. Thomas isn't getting any younger, and in a few years we would be looking for a young goalie that could become an elite goalie.

The B's have that now, and I'd hate to see it slip away only to have to fix it later down the line.
And... you're gonna pay a premium to fix it...

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03-07-2011, 08:27 AM
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why? Rask will not get us the kind of return everyone thinks he will. Not to mention that thomas will be retiring when his contract is up. We have already seen what rask is capable of, why trade him and put our goaltending into the unknown?

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03-07-2011, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Gonzothe7thDman View Post
Still pushing Thomas + for Hossa in the offseason.
When was the last time a Stanley Cup winning goalie was traded/released in the off-season? Oh yeah, last year. I guess we could do it. But, the season ticket holders will be coming with their torches and pitchforks if that happens.

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03-07-2011, 09:00 AM
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There seems to be this misconception that the Bruins have gone basically all-in on this season and that they've mortgaged the future to get Tomas Kaberle. I've heard it on 98.5 and I've read it in the papers, but to be honest with you, Joe Colborne and a pick that they'd be lucky to turn into a 3rd line talent (a la Caron) in 4 years isn't exactly the "future." Blake Wheeler never put it all together, Peverley is a good piece, and Stuart's job is being done by Adam McQuaid for 1/3 the cost.

Theoretically, I see where you're coming from. If the approach was, in fact, to push all the chips to the middle on this season, then trading Rask would actually be smart, since Claude Julien's track record is that once he's in the playoffs, he doesn't change goalies ever. Backups under Julien's command have seen less than one playoff period combined among them in his entire career.

But:

1. **** happens. What happens if the Bruins face the Sabres in the first round and Patrick Kaleta kamikazes Thomas, sidelining him for the rest of the playoffs? Your #1 goalie is suddenly Anton Khudobin. As with the roster, goaltending depth is good. Plus, Thomas is kind of an old guy. There's a delicate balance between "old goalie at the top of the world" and "old goalie who looks like an old goalie." Personally, I think Thomas could play and play well until he's in his 40's like Hasek did because he had very little wear and tear on his body through his 20's, but he might not.

2. Even if you trade Rask, goalies have a notoriously low trade value. Pascal Leclaire was a promising young goalie who had hit a rough patch when Columbus packaged him with a decent second-round pick for Anton Vermette. Now, Vermette is a good player, but is his value basically Rask + a second-round pick from a borderline playoff team? That's a bit steep. That's just one example, but for the most part goalies don't fetch the return that most people would expect.

3. The bigger picture is that they're not "all-in" Colborne might be a nice NHL player and that pick might turn into something serviceable, but by the time that happens, Chara is on the back nine, Thomas might be retired, and the team will looks very different. They still have Minnesota's second-round pick (not to mention Toronto's first-round pick) in this upcoming draft, which is more than a lot of teams can say about their draft pick stockpile.

What Chiarelli did at the deadline was pull open the "window" that could have begun next year into this season and made them a true contender, but he really didn't sacrifice that much to do it. If you trade Rask, then you really are mortgaging the future.

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03-07-2011, 09:02 AM
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When was the last time a Stanley Cup winning goalie was traded/released in the off-season? Oh yeah, last year. I guess we could do it. But, the season ticket holders will be coming with their torches and pitchforks if that happens.
Most season ticket holders know who Tuukka Rask is. If there's a sense that:

1: Tuukka is ready (I honestly believe he is -- not as good as TT, but a top 10 starting tender, sure, definitely)
2: the cap space goes to improving the forwards or defense radically (Hossa would do that)
3: We have a quality backup lined up as Rask insurance (Khudobin has the talent to be a Halak to Rask's Price if required)

...I think they'd be surprisingly mellow about it.

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03-07-2011, 09:07 AM
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What about a Rask for Matt Duschene out of Colorado. Fair value?

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03-07-2011, 09:11 AM
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What about a Rask for Matt Duschene out of Colorado. Fair value?
Colorado should be done blowing up their team. There were reports of locker room "issues" all year long, which is the only way I can explain why they blew up such a promising team so quickly, and I'd have to imagine that these trades were intended to settle those issues.

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03-07-2011, 09:14 AM
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There seems to be this misconception that the Bruins have gone basically all-in on this season and that they've mortgaged the future to get Tomas Kaberle. I've heard it on 98.5 and I've read it in the papers, but to be honest with you, Joe Colborne and a pick that they'd be lucky to turn into a 3rd line talent (a la Caron) in 4 years isn't exactly the "future." Blake Wheeler never put it all together, Peverley is a good piece, and Stuart's job is being done by Adam McQuaid for 1/3 the cost.

Theoretically, I see where you're coming from. If the approach was, in fact, to push all the chips to the middle on this season, then trading Rask would actually be smart, since Claude Julien's track record is that once he's in the playoffs, he doesn't change goalies ever. Backups under Julien's command have seen less than one playoff period combined among them in his entire career.

But:

1. **** happens. What happens if the Bruins face the Sabres in the first round and Patrick Kaleta kamikazes Thomas, sidelining him for the rest of the playoffs? Your #1 goalie is suddenly Anton Khudobin. As with the roster, goaltending depth is good. Plus, Thomas is kind of an old guy. There's a delicate balance between "old goalie at the top of the world" and "old goalie who looks like an old goalie." Personally, I think Thomas could play and play well until he's in his 40's like Hasek did because he had very little wear and tear on his body through his 20's, but he might not.

2. Even if you trade Rask, goalies have a notoriously low trade value. Pascal Leclaire was a promising young goalie who had hit a rough patch when Columbus packaged him with a decent second-round pick for Anton Vermette. Now, Vermette is a good player, but is his value basically Rask + a second-round pick from a borderline playoff team? That's a bit steep. That's just one example, but for the most part goalies don't fetch the return that most people would expect.

3. The bigger picture is that they're not "all-in" Colborne might be a nice NHL player and that pick might turn into something serviceable, but by the time that happens, Chara is on the back nine, Thomas might be retired, and the team will looks very different. They still have Minnesota's second-round pick (not to mention Toronto's first-round pick) in this upcoming draft, which is more than a lot of teams can say about their draft pick stockpile.

What Chiarelli did at the deadline was pull open the "window" that could have begun next year into this season and made them a true contender, but he really didn't sacrifice that much to do it. If you trade Rask, then you really are mortgaging the future.
Agreed.

You have to give something to get something, and Chiarelli did that by trading what he did to get Kablerle, and to a lesser extent Peverley and Kelly.

The future hasn't been mortgaged, the timeline for the future was just bumped up to include this year.

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03-07-2011, 09:14 AM
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Rask will not be traded. There is no reason to do so as it doesn't help our cap that much, and the kid is the one with a definite longterm future in the NHL. No disrespect AT ALL meant to Tim Thomas, but there's no guarantee he'll be playing in 4 years. This is a team that wants to contend longterm, and that means that the tie goes to the young goaltender -- TT is only the starter because he's clearly superior at the moment.

Rask's been brought along pretty gently all told, especially thanks to Timmy's presence, and if the team has reasons I don't know about to believe he isn't ready then they won't move TT, but it's my personal opinion is that Rask is ready, and that means there's little reason to beat about the bush, especially if you could get something for Thomas and clear a large cap hit.

That said? You make that transition this offseason and the goaltending will take at least a short term hit. There's no way it could avoid doing so, since it's been the best or among the best in the league for the last several years thanks in huge part to the old tank. So we go from top 5 to top 10, and we need to use the cap hit somewhere else to improve out forwards or defensemen to measure, but that's not impossible to imagine doing well with the youth we have.

I have this crazy idea where we're this close to taking our shot over this year and the next, then shedding some other middling guys and load up on talented rookies, save our cash for promotions and resignings for a multiyear run at the cup, accept a couple bottom 4 seedings initially, then let the young core put it together for another real good shot at the big prize 3-4 years from now.

The only thing that makes me nervous about that plan is our lack of young top pairing potential defensemen. Chara may define our window more than we'd like. Given Chia's true genius lies in the area of loading up multiple rookies at positions of projected need, I have little doubt that we'll see him start to load up on really big, tough, physical shutdown top pairing D potentials over the next little while and give them a chance to work out. I note Chudinov and Valabik already on hand as raw but potential possibilities there.


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03-07-2011, 09:16 AM
  #22
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What about a Rask for Matt Duschene out of Colorado. Fair value?
They would laugh at that. We couldn't get Duchene for Seguin right now. He's the face of their franchise. Edmonton might be interested in Rask. But, you're not getting Hall or their top pick this year. Chicago might want Rask more than Thomas because it saves them money and gives them better goaltending.

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03-07-2011, 09:16 AM
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So when you say winning now, you mean winning next season?

Can we save this crap until the Bruins lose in the 2nd round.

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03-07-2011, 09:16 AM
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Jack Donaghy
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What about a Rask for Matt Duschene out of Colorado. Fair value?
We'd definitely have to add. And I don't want to.

I see no actual valid reason to trade Tuukka. He's too good, too cheap, with too much potential and we've seen what he can do.

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03-07-2011, 09:22 AM
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What about a Rask for Matt Duschene out of Colorado. Fair value?
Goalies dont have even close to the value that skaters have. Rask would never return a 20 year old PPG center who was drafted 3rd overall 2 years ago.

I dont want to say Rask is a dime a dozen because ha has proven that he could be a starter but look around the league. Bernier in LA, Schneider in Vancouver, Nuervirth in Washington, Markstrom in Florida etc.

Look at Halak, sure he was older than Rask is now but he had also stood on his head against the Caps and Pens and lead his team to the conference finals. He was able to return Lars Eller and Ian Schultz. Bruins fans are crazy if they think Rask could return Matt Duchene

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