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2010-2011 Rangers Prospects Thread (Juniors, NCAA, International, Other) *Part 4*

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Old
03-05-2011, 09:41 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
And he added an assist just for good measure.
Wow, I had the box score open in my browser and I could have sworn it said 0:00 remaining while it still listed the score as 4-2... Weird... They scored with exactly 1 second left to play...

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03-06-2011, 10:40 AM
  #352
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"Does Evgeny Grachev Have It?"

"He just doesn’t have the heart, the consistency or the talent to make it at the next level. He can barely sustain it at this level. Maybe a change of scenery changes that, but losing him would not really affect much." Mitch Beck

http://www.snyrangersblog.com/2011/0...achev-have-it/
He finally seems to be clicking a little this year but he certainly has developed real slow. Hard to quantify heart but we all know his game has been too slow, disengaged, thinking too much so it';s understandable why this opinion could be out there and maybe even correct. Since he doesn't score much consistency has obviously been an issue that ties into that as well.

But the coaches and people around him constantly report he works his balls off so i'm not too sure this guy isn;'t just loaded with bias...

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03-06-2011, 07:00 PM
  #353
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Christian Thomas' team won 5-4 today, but he was held off the score sheet.

Werek was also held off the score sheet in Kingston's 5-4 loss today.

Horak's game is just getting started now.

Bourque has an assist so far. His team is tied 2-2 in the second.

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03-06-2011, 10:47 PM
  #354
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Bourque finished the night with 2 assists and a +1 in Quebecs 5-2 win

Horak ended the night with 1 assist and a +2 in Chillwacks 6-2 win

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03-07-2011, 08:49 AM
  #355
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Regarding Grachev.

He's putting up more points this year than last, at least he's on pace to do that.

He went from a -13 to a +15, now granted, most seem to think that the +/- stat is useless, and if you are telling me a 5 point swing in either direction doesn't account for much, I would agree with you, however, this is a 28 goal swing to the good and that kind of awareness cannot be ignored.

Additionall, he's still a very big man that is still learning what he can and cannot do in his own skin.

Finally, he's playing with a very thin group of talented forwards in Hartford.

There's no real offensive threats in hartford that can help get him the puck in prime scoring situations.

Lets see what his numbers look like when he has a center that can create.

Would love to see Grachev with Stepan, then I'd like to see what his numbers look like.

I think people tend to look at his totals and not take anything else into consideration and say he's not "getting it" when in fact those that make those claims are the ones not "getting it"

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03-07-2011, 09:41 AM
  #356
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I just made a point in the "what rookie do you think will be on the Rangers next year" thread and would like to reiterate it here:

Dale Weise and Carl Hagelin are the SAME age. Weise is close to a PPG in the AHL and has played 2 seasons as a pro. He is 3 inches taller and a more gritty player overall. If Weise were in college hockey this season he would be dominating just like Hagelin. Why does Carl get all the love and Weise is considered a scrub? Doesnt make any sense.

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03-07-2011, 09:52 AM
  #357
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Because they're different players?

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03-07-2011, 09:59 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I just made a point in the "what rookie do you think will be on the Rangers next year" thread and would like to reiterate it here:

Dale Weise and Carl Hagelin are the SAME age. Weise is close to a PPG in the AHL and has played 2 seasons as a pro. He is 3 inches taller and a more gritty player overall. If Weise were in college hockey this season he would be dominating just like Hagelin. Why does Carl get all the love and Weise is considered a scrub? Doesnt make any sense.
Skating ability and Weise came up and was unimpressive.

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03-07-2011, 09:59 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by rangers1024 View Post
Because they're different players?
Really? Thanks.

People gush over Hagelin's points in college. Put him in the AHL and would he replicate the numbers Weise has put up?

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03-07-2011, 10:02 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Skating ability and Weise came up and was unimpressive.
Weise came up in the same year Hagelin was at college. What's to stop him from improving over the off-season?

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03-07-2011, 10:40 AM
  #361
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Hagelin has way more skill and hockey sense, period.

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03-07-2011, 11:05 AM
  #362
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Weise in a prototypical north-south North American player. Good size and a physical edge. He will fight. He wasn't getting a lot of ice time with us. Avg. 6 and a half minutes a game over 9 games. He had 20 hits and 3 fights which is pretty decent for that amount of ice time. Also 9 shots on goal--again not bad--so I don't get that he was all that impressive. He was a injury fill in. He was involved. He did fine for the amount of ice time he got. He's not going to be a top 6 forward though--but he should score some.

Hagelin strikes me as a hybrid between a North American and a European player. More skilled than Weise--smaller and less physical. A bottom line player needs a bit of physical game and that may be a question with him. OTOH I have an idea that he is a guy you can bounce around in your lineup and is more likely to be an effective pk'er than Weise which is an important thing for a guy who isn't a top 6. At least we didn't see Weise used in this role during his callup. Hagelin could turn out to be a Kelly Miller or John Madden type.

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03-07-2011, 11:46 AM
  #363
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For me, Weise looks like a Carcillo/Prust-like player minus the aggravating. He should become a solid 4th liner who will drop the gloves and add grit. I would think 15-20 points is not out of the realm of possibility for him.

Hagelin, like Eco said, reminds me of John Madden. A defensively responsible player who has great speed and will most likely top out around 30 points in the NHL.

This is from seeing both of them play multiple times. Hagelin looks great, in college. Weise has looked good in the AHL. To me, if I am looking for a player to play with Boyle and Prust on the 4th line(Fedotenko's spot), I look harder at Weise than Hagelin and let Hagelin play at least half a season in the AHL.

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03-07-2011, 12:25 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post

Dale Weise and Carl Hagelin are the SAME age. Weise is close to a PPG in the AHL and has played 2 seasons as a pro. He is 3 inches taller and a more gritty player overall. If Weise were in college hockey this season he would be dominating just like Hagelin. Why does Carl get all the love and Weise is considered a scrub? Doesnt make any sense.
What's the basis for comparing the 2 players though? Point production? We've seen lots of players do well in the AHL and then their game doesn't translate well to NHL (Parenteau, Dawes, Immonen, etc)... Ranger fans have gotten a look at Weise, and there wasn't much reason to be optimistic about his game.... Could play a 4th line role at some point but that's about it...

Hagelin doesn't project to be a 4th line player in the NHL... I could see him as an excellent 3rd line player on a team with good depth... He's a bonafide leader and big game player for UofM:

Quote:
Hagelin hasn't been merely a scorer, he's been the scorer.

Using his top-level speed on Michigan's top line, Hagelin has been a one-man blitzkrieg on ice. He has held two separate five-game point streaks this season. But more impressively, Hagelin has consistently put together multiple point games.

Hagelin leads the CCHA with four game-winning goals and currently sits fourth in total scoring
. But the Sodertalje, Sweden native will admit he’s gotten his fair share of luck around the net.
http://www.michigandaily.com/content...-senior-season

There's a lot to like about Hagelin's game... His speed, his 2-way play, his conditioning & work ethic, his ability to get pucks to the net, his ability to make his linemates better, his leadership attributes, etc...

If the Rangers don't bring Fedotenko back... There could be an opening on our 3rd line for a player like Hagelin to make the team.

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03-07-2011, 01:07 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Regarding Grachev.

He's putting up more points this year than last, at least he's on pace to do that.

He went from a -13 to a +15, now granted, most seem to think that the +/- stat is useless, and if you are telling me a 5 point swing in either direction doesn't account for much, I would agree with you, however, this is a 28 goal swing to the good and that kind of awareness cannot be ignored.

Additionall, he's still a very big man that is still learning what he can and cannot do in his own skin.

Finally, he's playing with a very thin group of talented forwards in Hartford.

There's no real offensive threats in hartford that can help get him the puck in prime scoring situations.

Lets see what his numbers look like when he has a center that can create.

Would love to see Grachev with Stepan, then I'd like to see what his numbers look like.

I think people tend to look at his totals and not take anything else into consideration and say he's not "getting it" when in fact those that make those claims are the ones not "getting it"
The discussions surrounding player development in Hartford have been interesting.

In some discussions I've listened to, it has been suggested that the folks in Hartford have not been bringing the prospects along as well as they could. Results would suggest otherwise.

IMO I think they have a pretty good handle on where all the prospects are at...and when they might be ready to make the jump.

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03-07-2011, 05:12 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
What's the basis for comparing the 2 players though? Point production? We've seen lots of players do well in the AHL and then their game doesn't translate well to NHL (Parenteau, Dawes, Immonen, etc)... Ranger fans have gotten a look at Weise, and there wasn't much reason to be optimistic about his game.... Could play a 4th line role at some point but that's about it...

Hagelin doesn't project to be a 4th line player in the NHL... I could see him as an excellent 3rd line player on a team with good depth... He's a bonafide leader and big game player for UofM:



http://www.michigandaily.com/content...-senior-season

There's a lot to like about Hagelin's game... His speed, his 2-way play, his conditioning & work ethic, his ability to get pucks to the net, his ability to make his linemates better, his leadership attributes, etc...

If the Rangers don't bring Fedotenko back... There could be an opening on our 3rd line for a player like Hagelin to make the team.
In Weise's first training camp he was very good. In the AHL he is a leader and a difference-maker. Could he become Dane Byers? Yes. Could he become a solid 4th-line player who plays with an edge? Absolutely.

All I am saying is that it is foolish to write the kid off when he is the SAME age as Hagelin who, while dominating college, has yet to play 1 game pro, let alone score 28 goals in his rookie season at age 20.

I happen to really like Weise. His games this year were up and down. He would have a good shift and then a bad game. I believe it is difficult for him to sit for long stretches, like most players. Especially when he is coming from playing big minutes in the AHL.

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03-07-2011, 05:37 PM
  #367
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I think Grachev is a really lucky bee for the fact that this franchise has a few guys ahead of him and behind him that are promising. Dubi, Cally, Step, Ani in NHL; Kreider, Thomas, Werek, Hagelin, etc in Jr.

If EGghead was alone in HFD with pressure from us to get some youngblood on the roster, he'd likely be gone by now. that or royally ruined by being stuck on the 4th line.

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03-07-2011, 06:03 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
In Weise's first training camp he was very good. In the AHL he is a leader and a difference-maker. Could he become Dane Byers? Yes. Could he become a solid 4th-line player who plays with an edge? Absolutely.

All I am saying is that it is foolish to write the kid off when he is the SAME age as Hagelin who, while dominating college, has yet to play 1 game pro, let alone score 28 goals in his rookie season at age 20.

I happen to really like Weise. His games this year were up and down. He would have a good shift and then a bad game. I believe it is difficult for him to sit for long stretches, like most players. Especially when he is coming from playing big minutes in the AHL.
Well if you're conceding that Weise may project to be a solid 4th liner, you have your answer right there as to why there isn't much buzz/hype about him or his game... His potential impact to our future line-up would be minimal.... Same could be said for Brodie Dupont, no? More buzz surrounding Hagelin because of his intangibles, and the fact that if his game translates well to the NHL, you're looking at a player with a much higher ceiling than Weise, 3rd or 2nd line potential depending on how things go.

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03-07-2011, 06:09 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
In Weise's first training camp he was very good. In the AHL he is a leader and a difference-maker. Could he become Dane Byers? Yes. Could he become a solid 4th-line player who plays with an edge? Absolutely.

All I am saying is that it is foolish to write the kid off when he is the SAME age as Hagelin who, while dominating college, has yet to play 1 game pro, let alone score 28 goals in his rookie season at age 20.

I happen to really like Weise. His games this year were up and down. He would have a good shift and then a bad game. I believe it is difficult for him to sit for long stretches, like most players. Especially when he is coming from playing big minutes in the AHL.
Prospects with 4th-line upside aren't going to get much love. That's just the reality of the situation, whether it's fair or not. Carl Hagelin is quite a bit more dynamic in his skill set. That's the main reason why he has caught the attention of prospect hounds on the board.

Solid 4th-liners that play with an edge are a dime a dozen. That doesn't mean we should write off Weise, but he's not a very sexy pick. Limited upside to him. Hagelin looks like a sure-fire 3rd liner that can play in all special teams situations. If everything breaks right for the kid, he could become a good second line player. The significant upside attached to Hagelin is what makes him the better prospect.

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03-07-2011, 09:22 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Prospects with 4th-line upside aren't going to get much love. That's just the reality of the situation, whether it's fair or not. Carl Hagelin is quite a bit more dynamic in his skill set. That's the main reason why he has caught the attention of prospect hounds on the board.

Solid 4th-liners that play with an edge are a dime a dozen. That doesn't mean we should write off Weise, but he's not a very sexy pick. Limited upside to him. Hagelin looks like a sure-fire 3rd liner that can play in all special teams situations. If everything breaks right for the kid, he could become a good second line player. The significant upside attached to Hagelin is what makes him the better prospect.
I see him as a 4th liner. Yes. But what is it that set Hagelin's offensive skills apart from Weise is my real question.

Lets look at their corresponding years:

08-09:
Weise 74GP 11g 12a 23p 64PIM(AHL)
Haglein 41GP 13g 18a 31p 32PIM(NCAA)

09-10:
Weise 73GP 28g 22a 50p 114PIM(AHL)
Hagelin 45GP 19g 31a 50p 34PIM(NCAA)

10-11:
Weise 30GP 13g 13a 26p 62PIM(AHL)
10GP 0g 0a 0p 19PIM(NHL)
Hagelin 36GP 17g 28a 45p 33PIM(NCAA)

Weise has played against better competition in the pros. How are Hagelin's offensive stats better than Weise's?

I understand the skating differences and the differences in the players. I have seen both play quite a bit. Thinking Hagelin has more offensive potential than Weise, IMO< would be a mistake.

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03-07-2011, 09:29 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I see him as a 4th liner. Yes. But what is it that set Hagelin's offensive skills apart from Weise is my real question.

Lets look at their corresponding years:

08-09:
Weise 74GP 11g 12a 23p 64PIM(AHL)
Haglein 41GP 13g 18a 31p 32PIM(NCAA)

09-10:
Weise 73GP 28g 22a 50p 114PIM(AHL)
Hagelin 45GP 19g 31a 50p 34PIM(NCAA)

10-11:
Weise 30GP 13g 13a 26p 62PIM(AHL)
10GP 0g 0a 0p 19PIM(NHL)
Hagelin 36GP 17g 28a 45p 33PIM(NCAA)

Weise has played against better competition in the pros. How are Hagelin's offensive stats better than Weise's?

I understand the skating differences and the differences in the players. I have seen both play quite a bit. Thinking Hagelin has more offensive potential than Weise, IMO< would be a mistake.
It's a mistake to be comparing point production between two different types of players, playing in two diffferent leagues.... I don't see why you are comparing and contrasting these two against each other.... You need to look at individual player attributes and what types of games they play... Comparing point production isn't going to tell you much.... Nigel Dawes put up 92 points in 72 games in the WHL one season, does that mean that he and Christian Thomas have/had the same ceiling in terms of playing in the NHL?

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03-07-2011, 09:38 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
It's a mistake to be comparing point production between two different types of players, playing in two diffferent leagues.... I don't see why you are comparing and contrasting these two against each other.... You need to look at individual player attributes and what types of games they play... Comparing point production isn't going to tell you much.... Nigel Dawes put up 92 points in 72 games in the WHL one season, does that mean that he and Christian Thomas have/had the same ceiling in terms of playing in the NHL?
Just proving that their offensive ceilings may not be far off from one another. If people think Weise wouldnt be dominating college hockey right now they are sorely mistaken.

I like Hagelin. I actually like him quite a bit. I said it before that I think he can be a John Madden type of player in the NHL. But Weise is a better prospect than he is given credit for. He is the type of player good teams have on their lower lines that help you win games. Heart and soul player.

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03-07-2011, 09:57 PM
  #373
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I like Hagelin a lot.

But I don't see him being higher then 3rd line in the NHL.

Which is fine with me.

Good skill, smarts, PK, speed.

Maybe he can be to the Rangers in the future, what Jan Erixon was to the Rangers in the past?

More skilled, smaller verson of Jan Erixon?

I like Weise, too. And have defended him. But, I'd take Hagelin over Weise. There's more upside to Hagelin.

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03-07-2011, 09:59 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I like Hagelin a lot.

But I don't see him being higher then 3rd line in the NHL.

Which is fine with me.

Good skill, smarts, PK, speed.

Maybe he can be to the Rangers in the future, what Jan Erixon was to the Rangers in the past?

More skilled, smaller verson of Jan Erixon?

I like Weise, too. And have defended him. But, I'd take Hagelin over Weise. There's more upside to Hagelin.
Probably true. But Weise has quite a bit of size on Hagelin.

If I had my way I would see both on the Rangers next season. I just feel Weise may be the better fit for the spot that will be open next year.

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03-07-2011, 10:03 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Just proving that their offensive ceilings may not be far off from one another. If people think Weise wouldnt be dominating college hockey right now they are sorely mistaken.

I like Hagelin. I actually like him quite a bit. I said it before that I think he can be a John Madden type of player in the NHL. But Weise is a better prospect than he is given credit for. He is the type of player good teams have on their lower lines that help you win games. Heart and soul player.
Again, they are completely different players in terms of physical attributes, overall skill level, hockey IQ, work ethic, intangibles, leadership attributes, etc.... I don't see the value in directly comparing and contrasting them (or their production) to each other as it relates to potential success at the NHL level...

Weise's style of play reminds me a bit of Dane Byers... Who played North-South hockey and got by on more of a power forward game and going into the dirty areas of the ice.... Not much skill involved or reliance on hockey sense.... I see that being much more difficult to replicate in the NHL, where there are more faster, stronger, and bigger players who help mitigate the effect of playing that type of game.... He would have to be really good at what he does effectively, for it to translate well IMHO.... Tough task...

A player like Hagelin, whose primary strength is his skating and who has a better 2 way game and possesses more playmaking ability, has a better chance of his game translating to higher levels of play IMHO... Higher hockey IQ = being able to think your way through increased competition and challenges... And that's why a Center like Stepan can contribute the way he does in relation to other Centers his age not in the NHL, he can think the game through.... It's not a knock on Weise, but it comes down to how they play the game and their individual attributes.... I would think it would be harder to become a Dustin Penner or Ryan Malone type in the NHL than it is to come up and be a speedy, playmaking forward who plays an intelligent & responsible 2-way game.... Both types of players could potentially be successful in the NHL, but IMHO, the type of game Hagelin plays affords him better chances at finding success....


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