HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Matt Gilroy Project

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-07-2011, 05:05 PM
  #51
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,898
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Point Totals First Five Years in the League

A.) 25, 9, 18, 24, 27
B.) 1, 8, 11, 9, 23
C.) 5, 26, 17, 16, 10


Players corresponding to the above #'s:

A.) Chris Pronger
B.) Zdeno Chara
C.) Sergei Gonchar

Not comparing Gilroy to any of the above. But, if you think you've seen everything Matt Gilroy has to offer offensively after 1.75 seasons, then you really need to re-think your position. Clearly, defensemen come into their prime(s) much later (unless you're a Leetch, Orr, Lidstrom) in their careers. Despite him being 25, he's a 2nd year pro and still has a lot of upside. I think you can certainly focus on much more serious NYR issues than Matt Gilroy.
He's 26, turning 27 this summer.

When Pronger was 26, he'd already had a 62 points season and scored 47 points in 51 games. In the pre-lockout, clutching and grabbing NHL.

When Chara was 26, he had 16 goals and was a +33.

When Gonchar was 26, he had already had two 50 point seasons.

Age-wise, Gilroy is in the prime of his career.

__________________
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:07 PM
  #52
Miller Time NYR
Wrong^
 
Miller Time NYR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 4,793
vCash: 500
Yea, no. He cant play defense on the blue line, or offense from the blue line, he's not all that creative and yet that's his only niche. He's not that fast and his offensive skillset isn't very good either. If it came down to for some reason a team having 11 forwards and 7 defenseman and they HAD to play someone at forward he would be the first guy but he's not a favorable option at forward, I'd much much much rather grachev, newbury,weise, guys who are actually forwards playing forward.

Miller Time NYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:12 PM
  #53
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
 
n8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: san francisco
Country: United States
Posts: 7,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
One big reason

Most of the very most talented players in college hockey are signed before their junior year. Look at Paul Kariya, Stastny, any number of others. There are certain exceptions. Most Hobey Baker winners and highest scorers are the oldest in the NCAA. Being the best player at age 23-25 in the NCAA is not nearly as big a deal as being a finalist in say, your sophomore year.

Gilly was 24 when he won the hobey baker. And the pace of the game in the NCAA is a little slower, so his skating gave him an offensive edge. If all players had to stay all 4 years once committing to the NCAA, it would be a much more competitive award.
yeah, the Hobey Baker should only be impressive if it is won by a freshman or sophmore. Basically, the younger the winner, the more stock you should put into it. That said, if Hagelin wins this year (he's a senior) let's remember to not look too into that one.

Peter Sejna, Junior Lessard, Marty Sertich, Matt Carle, Ryan Duncan, Kevin Porter. where are they now? Of that list, Matt Carle and Kevin Porter are the only ones in the NHL. The latter looks at best to be a 3rd line player. More like a 4th. Since the 1990s, Paul Kariya was probably the only elite player to have won the Hobey Baker and he did it as a freshman scoring 100 points in 39 games. Morrison and Drury were probably the only other respectable top 6 players to have ever won the award.

n8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:14 PM
  #54
Stugots
Kolo, Kolo Kolo!
 
Stugots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Long Island
Country: United States
Posts: 6,377
vCash: 500
From a more personal standpoint its going to be tough to see Gilroy go because he's a local kid who grew up on LI- and a lot of us could relate to that. Its cool seeing someone who grew up a few minutes from you and played at the same rinks you did play for your favorite team.

From a hockey standpoint, we definitely shouldn't extend him his QO. We have four solid homegrown d-men plus MDZ and Eminger/McCabe/UFA. If we need a 7th d-man it will be Kundratek or Valentenko at 500k, not Gilroy at almost 2 million.

Stugots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:18 PM
  #55
haohmaru
#bdwyblueshirts
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 5,388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He's 26, turning 27 this summer.

When Pronger was 26, he'd already had a 62 points season and scored 47 points in 51 games. In the pre-lockout, clutching and grabbing NHL.

When Chara was 26, he had 16 goals and was a +33.

When Gonchar was 26, he had already had two 50 point seasons.

Age-wise, Gilroy is in the prime of his career.
My argument specifically stated he was a 2nd year pro. Not comparing age(s).

Chara 2nd Year: 59 games, 8 points.
Pronger 2nd Year: 43 games, 14 points ('94/'95).
Gonchar 2nd Year: 78 games, 41 points (in a clearly different league in '95-'96)

Also, I'm comparing Gilroy to some of the best defenseman in the league over the past 10 years and 2 of these guys are probably shoe-in HOF'ers.

Point is, evaluating Gilroy after a year and half with two crappy D partners and him playing on the wrong side probably isn't the greatest way to measure his upside. He might never be a 40 point defenseman, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did somewhere where he gets ice time and another year or two under his belt.

haohmaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:22 PM
  #56
offdacrossbar
with the 10th pick..
 
offdacrossbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: da cuse
Country: Tuvalu
Posts: 8,263
vCash: 500
bottom line, with our current d right now, we can put the gilroy money to better use.

he doesnt do anything well enough to warrant a spot.

hes a tweener dman. offensively, hes weak, his shot is substandard. same for defensively. weaksauce. his skating is good but that aint nearly enough.

imo, we do not offer him.

offdacrossbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:25 PM
  #57
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,898
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
My argument specifically stated he was a 2nd year pro. Not comparing age(s).

Chara 2nd Year: 59 games, 8 points.
Pronger 2nd Year: 43 games, 14 points ('94/'95).
Gonchar 2nd Year: 78 games, 41 points (in a clearly different league in '95-'96)

Also, I'm comparing Gilroy to some of the best defenseman in the league over the past 10 years and 2 of these guys are probably shoe-in HOF'ers.

Point is, evaluating Gilroy after a year and half with two crappy D partners and him playing on the wrong side probably isn't the greatest way to measure his upside. He might never be a 40 point defenseman, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did somewhere where he gets ice time and another year or two under his belt.
But how long do you want to give him to mature and/or develop? He'll be 27 when the next training camp starts. I've been saying for the last year or so that he doesn't have the luxury of time to develop.

The fact is this is a guy who's greatest success came when playing as an overage college senior against kids who were as much as six years his juniors. And he hasn't shown anything of note in the NHL. You can find any number of factors for that to be so, but at the end of the day it's on him. He still hasn't adapted to the speed of the game and the size of the competition.

SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:28 PM
  #58
haohmaru
#bdwyblueshirts
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 5,388
vCash: 500
Yeah, but he's an RFA and a serviceable 5th/6th guy AND we have a ton of guys we need to sign. If he can be had for a relatively cheap price, I don't see why not. I don't think we'll have the $ to upgrade the D all that much in the upcoming season (unless Drury is done/bought out).

haohmaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:31 PM
  #59
Fitzy
All Is Well
 
Fitzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,925
vCash: 500
I wouldn't want him back, even if it is in a 7th defenseman role for peanuts.

The guy is not very good at much of anything. He has learned to compensate a little bit with smarts for his weakness, but really he is an AHL defenseman.

Fitzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:41 PM
  #60
HatTrick Swayze
Tomato Potato
 
HatTrick Swayze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,476
vCash: 500
For every good play he makes in the offensive zone (and admittedly he does make some), he:

-flat out gets beat to the outside
-loses his man in the slot
-gets swatted away while trying to take away the puck from the opposition
-shoots into the goalie's chest
-or makes an abysmal breakout pass that at best does nothing / at worst gets picked off

3 or 4 times. Factor in his cap hit and he needs to be let go.

__________________
"Here we can see the agression of american people. They love fighting and guns. when they wont win they try to kill us all." -HalfOfFame
HatTrick Swayze is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:49 PM
  #61
Vitto79
Registered User
 
Vitto79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sarnia
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpicowski View Post
He is poor/average on defense. Poor/average on offense. He needs to be sent down, and Valentenko or Kundratek should take his minutes.
and he makes 1.7 million.........get him out of here

Vitto79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:54 PM
  #62
bernmeister
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,432
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by New England Hockey View Post
Gilroy's pass yesterday for Cally's last goal was sick.
He makes a few eye opening plays, (like the pass off the boards to Dubi a month or so ago) but is nothing to write home about offensively. He gets a lot of undeserved **** from the fanbase because they wanted him to get flashy stats. He had a mediocre rookie season, and he is better this year. Still not worthy of his qualifying offer, but if we resign him out of free agency for a one year deal it won't be terrible. A stop gap for McIlrath.
This^.

While he may be able to develop a shot, probably a wrister, not a slapper, he is not likely to become a great offensive force in any case from either F or D. However, while a 'lite' version of same, he fills a role in the tradition of Rutoslainen and McEwen. He does have great wheels. He provides a bonafide use.

Trade him? Sure but not for crap or a step down.
Keep him? Yeah, but not at any price, rather one commensurate with performance and potential --- which at the moment is about 80% of his current salary, with performance bonuses or other bonuses based on how well the club does.

Cut him?
There's a handful on this team who are less worthy...
Avery, for example.
So since Gilroy is close to his paid value, why crucify him??

Give him more coaching in offseason to improve.
Keep him on the bubble.
We get a better guy for that bubble, fine.
But Gilroy's not a bum, so let's not give him the bum's rush.

PS --- a LOT of guys wanted to just cut Gilroy for nothing from even before the season. I said not so fast.
I don't get em all, but I got that one!

I continue to suggest in the short term we hold the course as to not being impulsive... deals worth doing, sure, don't be shy ... but let's not get impulsive as we continue to cut the wheat from the chaff....

bernmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:55 PM
  #63
nyr2k2
Can't Beat Him
 
nyr2k2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Country: United States
Posts: 23,405
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I wouldn't necessarily say that he is gone. I don't think we'll qualify him, but it's very possible that Sather tries to sign him to a 1 or 2 year deal for less. I think it's similar to the Christensen situation last year.
Yeah, I guess that's possible.

__________________

It's just pain.
nyr2k2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 06:36 PM
  #64
ruckus*
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,554
vCash: 500
My biggest regret is that we didn't trade him for a pick after last season.

For the people who are arguing that all he needs to do is get stronger.....that was what everyone said after last season.

He has no ability to take anyone off the puck in the corners. It's bad enough watching him try to battle third line players for the puck. I can't imagine him playing forward and having to face physical defensemen.

And can someone please explain to me all of this offensive potential he is supposed to have? Where is it? He has no shot. His apparent spectacular skating (which is one of the most overrated things I've ever heard) never creates opportunities, and he's a guy who makes one solid pass a month it seems.

And hoahmaru....you make two points that I really just don't understand.

First, to keep bringing up Redden and Eminger....Now I'm not one to defend Redden, but to blame Gilroy's play last year on being paired with Wade is laughable. It was just as unfortunate for Redden that he had to be paired with Gilroy. I hope you understand that. To honestly believe that Redden wasn't more serviceable than Gilroy is just being blind. Cap hit aside, Wade still made veteran plays and quick passes to get the puck out of the zone. I understand Gilroy was a rookie but he wasn't even capable of those things. He was Wade Redden but worse. And that's not Wade Redden's fault. And to bring Eminger into it? Eminger has been solid this season.

Also, you make a comment referring to the fact that we'll need a 5th or 6th defenseman next year so why not?

Why not? Because it's going to cost us his QO or at the very least more money than it would to put a rookie back there.

I understand the typical response from naysayers about prospects in Hartford playing as rookies next year and how we have no idea how they'll be....but we do know things about them if we've watched them.

I've watched Valentenko a ton and I don't see any way he's going to be worse than Gilroy. He's 100 times as physical and has a bomb of a shot. Those are already two things he brings that Gilroy doesn't. Gilroy brings nothing. He'll be a cheaper AND better option than Gilroy next year. There is ZERO reason to bring this guy back.

The point you make about not having money to address the D is exactly why you let him walk. You give another kid who has earned it a chance next year and use the money to improve other needs. All the while actually upgrading your D for less money.

ruckus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 06:38 PM
  #65
Blatant
Formerly NYRFan1823
 
Blatant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: @blatantlacrosse
Posts: 2,264
vCash: 500
With the log jam of defensemen, and even 2nd/3rd/4th liners we have, or have as prospects, Gilroy is just not going to be part of the team next year. He is not as bad as people think though, and will be on the opening day roster for another team to start next year.

Blatant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 06:42 PM
  #66
Punxrocknyc19*
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 10,233
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
He's not worth his qualifying offer. He's gone. It was a failed experiment.
too soft on defense, aint that good. AHL player at best.

Punxrocknyc19* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 06:43 PM
  #67
ruckus*
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRfan1823 View Post
With the log jam of defensemen, and even 2nd/3rd/4th liners we have, or have as prospects, Gilroy is just not going to be part of the team next year. He is not as bad as people think though, and will be on the opening day roster for another team to start next year.
Who? Florida?

ruckus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 06:45 PM
  #68
Blatant
Formerly NYRFan1823
 
Blatant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: @blatantlacrosse
Posts: 2,264
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Who? Florida?
You don't think he will make some of the crummier defensive teams as a 5/6? Personally I do.

Blatant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 07:03 PM
  #69
ruckus*
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRfan1823 View Post
You don't think he will make some of the crummier defensive teams as a 5/6? Personally I do.
Maybe but what's your point?

Is that what we're aspiring to be this time?

If a team like Florida or Colorado wants to take a chance on him so be it.

I think he'd get utterly destroyed out west.

In the East? Maybe the Islanders, Florida, Toronto since Burke wanted him initially...

I just don't know what the point is.

If he's a 5/6 guy on a crappy team, why would we want to bring him back?

This team is trying to move up from where they are.

They're not going to do that if they bring back players that would only play elsewhere if crappy teams gave them a chance.

ruckus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 07:05 PM
  #70
Blatant
Formerly NYRFan1823
 
Blatant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: @blatantlacrosse
Posts: 2,264
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Maybe but what's your point?

Is that what we're aspiring to be this time?

If a team like Florida or Colorado wants to take a chance on him so be it.

I think he'd get utterly destroyed out west.

In the East? Maybe the Islanders, Florida, Toronto since Burke wanted him initially...

I just don't know what the point is.

If he's a 5/6 guy on a crappy team, why would we want to bring him back?

This team is trying to move up from where they are.

They're not going to do that if they bring back players that would only play elsewhere if crappy teams gave them a chance.
Did you read what my original post was. I said he has no spot on this team next year, but will be on a different team next year. I do not get what you are arguing about?

Blatant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 07:23 PM
  #71
Richter35
Registered User
 
Richter35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,361
vCash: 500
Honestly trade him to the isles for a 4th we don't need him we have better dmen waiting to play for less

Richter35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 08:57 PM
  #72
ltrangerfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 943
vCash: 500
After reading this thread Here's what I can infer:


Gilroy isn't a NHL worthy defenseman so why would any team will offer him much in the way of compensation?

My thought : Why not resign him on the cheap?

The Rangers have a bunch of young defensmen in the AHL. If they were NHL ready would they still be playing in the AHL? Until they prove themselves (in camp etc) the Rangers might as well have Gilroy compete for a spot? If he doesn't cut it then so be it.

My guess: Gilroy will sign elsewhere. I fear that he'll prove to be a late bloomer. Despite being 26 I see continued improvement in his game. He's not as physical as some. Doesn't have the greatest shot. However, he's one of the best skaters on the team (gets back when out of position). Finally, seems to be a real smart player. I can see him as part of a third pairing on a top team. He has more creativity than many defensemen. My gut tells me he might put his offensive game together rather soon. Possibly as soon as the Rangers lose him?

ltrangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 09:06 PM
  #73
Boom Boom Geoffrion*
CarciLOL
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NYC
Country: Greece
Posts: 7,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He's 26, turning 27 this summer.

Age-wise, Gilroy is in the prime of his career.
But experience wise, he's not.

How often do second-year dmen find their stride? Gilroy will continue improving. 27 isn't old, unless you're 15.

Gilroy can be a serviceable dmen in this league for the next decade. So what if he doesn't peak until he's 29. Or 30. Sather blows 2M like it's nothing. If Matt wasn't part of the future, he likely would have been moved during the deadline for some type of scraps.

Boom Boom Geoffrion* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 09:16 PM
  #74
ruckus*
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,554
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRfan1823 View Post
Did you read what my original post was. I said he has no spot on this team next year, but will be on a different team next year. I do not get what you are arguing about?
Maybe I've misread your other posts or am thinking of a different user name but I swore I've seen you trying to tell people he hasn't been that bad.

That argument alone shows just how bad he is.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
After reading this thread Here's what I can infer:


Gilroy isn't a NHL worthy defenseman so why would any team will offer him much in the way of compensation?

My thought : Why not resign him on the cheap?

The Rangers have a bunch of young defensmen in the AHL. If they were NHL ready would they still be playing in the AHL? Until they prove themselves (in camp etc) the Rangers might as well have Gilroy compete for a spot? If he doesn't cut it then so be it.

My guess: Gilroy will sign elsewhere. I fear that he'll prove to be a late bloomer. Despite being 26 I see continued improvement in his game. He's not as physical as some. Doesn't have the greatest shot. However, he's one of the best skaters on the team (gets back when out of position). Finally, seems to be a real smart player. I can see him as part of a third pairing on a top team. He has more creativity than many defensemen. My gut tells me he might put his offensive game together rather soon. Possibly as soon as the Rangers lose him?
1. No team will offer him much in the way of compensation. He's going to take a pay cut. No doubt about it.

2. Why not resign him on the cheap? Because he's had two years to prove he was more than terrible and hasn't done so. There's no sense allocating money to a player who doesn't contribute anything to your team now and has show no evidence of doing so in the future.

3. If the defenseman in the A were ready why aren't they here? It's a fair argument but you're also failing to acknowledge the amount of money the Rangers gave to this kid out of college. This is the last year of his deal. They were hoping he figured things out after his rookie seasons. The players in the A will all have their chance next training camp. Gilroy won't.

4. A late bloomer? He's ****ing going to be 27 and has proven nothing in professional hockey.

5. He's not as physical as some? You mean he hasn't won a board battle in his life and has no ability to take the puck from someone?

6. He doesn't have the greatest shot? HE HAS NO SHOT. NONE. It's absolutely AWFUL. It's embarrassing a player on the blue line shoots like he does. EMBARRASSING.

7. He's one of the best skaters....blah blah blah blah blah shut the **** up EVERYONE who says this. Is he really? He isn't anymore noticeable than any decent skater in the league. Not at all. Get over this. He's really nothing special skating wise. Above average? Sure. So what. Tons of guys in this league are.

8. More creativity? How do you figure? Don't you think he'd use it sometime then?

9. You're right. He can be a third pairing defenseman on a poor team. Good for him. Let him make his money playing pro hockey elsewhere. We're not going anywhere with players like him on our team.

10. Your gut tells you? And you think it might be as soon as we cut him loose?

Here's my question:

What on earth are you people watching? And what on earth is your definition of someone who puts together some offensive prowess?

Will he ever even be a 20 point defenseman? I doubt it. In fact I'd be shocked if he scores more than 25 points in any season in the NHL.

For a guy who can't play a lick of defense, how the hell does someone like that have so many supporters? It's insane.

ruckus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 09:20 PM
  #75
Boom Boom Geoffrion*
CarciLOL
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NYC
Country: Greece
Posts: 7,553
vCash: 500
How much $$$ are we saving with a clear-cut upgrade over Gilroy, btw? As much as some of you guys dislike him, he's nowhere near as incompetent as Del Zotto in the defensive zone.

We brought in Kalinin a few years ago. He was a 27 year old veteran, signed to a 2M(?) contract. He put up like a dozen points, and was our bottom-pairing scapegoat.

Were you guys happier with Bozo? What was his salary again? How old was he as a Ranger? What did he produce?

Backman, anyone? That's a nice bottom-pairing dmen, with some offensive skill. Sad thing is he didn't know how to play defense. He was brutal. A true liability.

Gilroy is just a 3rd pairing dmen at this stage in his pubescent NHL career. Only a hater would just, expect him to stop progressing. Experience alone will make him twice the dmen in a few more season's. Some training, and confidence will expand his offensive game.

Is he worth the trouble of re-signing and developing? If you patient, then yes. If not, then no.

Not that it matters much, but I'd rather have Gilroy @2M than Boogey @1.6M. If we want to penny-pinch, there are ways to free up room.

Boom Boom Geoffrion* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:12 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.