HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Francois Gagnon: Tinordi and 1st round round draft pick for Penner

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-06-2011, 08:31 PM
  #201
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,198
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Exactly... god forbid if we ever get stuck for one year with a 4mil top 6 power forward...

...is Steve Sullivan available...
Yea, God knows the fans love AK.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2011, 08:35 PM
  #202
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
I find ridiculous the comparisons between AK and Penner, but that's just me. I'd take Penner 10 times out of 10 and I wouldn't even blink an eye. I've seen too many Ducks and Oilers' games to be duped by the naysayers here. I do however respect the opinion of those who have also seen him and would pick AK. I simply strongly disagree. As stated before: you can't teach size and Penner uses his body better than many other Top 6 in the league, AK included.

Habsterix* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2011, 09:29 PM
  #203
FlyingKostitsyn
Registered User
 
FlyingKostitsyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Quebec
Country: Australia
Posts: 8,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I find ridiculous the comparisons between AK and Penner, but that's just me. I'd take Penner 10 times out of 10 and I wouldn't even blink an eye. I've seen too many Ducks and Oilers' games to be duped by the naysayers here. I do however respect the opinion of those who have also seen him and would pick AK. I simply strongly disagree. As stated before: you can't teach size and Penner uses his body better than many other Top 6 in the league, AK included.
I don't think many people would choose AK over Penner. However AK is on our team and to get Penner we would have had to pay a hefty price.

I could buy a new car that's slightly (but obviously) better than mine but it would cost a fair amount of money. Meanwhile selling my used car would fetch me very little. See my point? The upgrade did not seem worth the cost for Pierre Gauthier, and honestly I agree with him.

FlyingKostitsyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2011, 09:38 PM
  #204
Freaky Habs Fan
Registered User
 
Freaky Habs Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: New-Brunswick
Posts: 9,500
vCash: 500
Was Penner the solution for us? I don't really think so. He would be a useful player for us, but for Tinordi and a 1st...I don't think he's worth it...at least not with our actual team.

I think it's a good thing we still have those two assets. I wouldn't be against trading them, but for the right piece. Who knows, maybe that piece will be available this summer. We still have what it takes to land a big fish at the draft...

Freaky Habs Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2011, 11:06 PM
  #205
FF de Mars
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: 42 rue Fontaine
Country: Martinique
Posts: 5,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I find ridiculous the comparisons between AK and Penner, but that's just me. I'd take Penner 10 times out of 10 and I wouldn't even blink an eye. I've seen too many Ducks and Oilers' games to be duped by the naysayers here. I do however respect the opinion of those who have also seen him and would pick AK. I simply strongly disagree. As stated before: you can't teach size and Penner uses his body better than many other Top 6 in the league, AK included.
Whether Penner is better than Kostitsyn or not is not the question. Whatever happens, Tinordi and a 1st is still a very steep price to pay for Penner. The argument with Kostitsyn is that he has more untapped potential than Penner, though.

FF de Mars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2011, 11:44 PM
  #206
Zeroknowledge*
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Facing a PC
Posts: 1,644
vCash: 500
Penner's real value is is a late 1st round pick 22++, not 2 firsts, not even close.

Habs management were probably willing to overpay since the team needs size, just be glad they didn't, Penner isn't the player that will carry the team and win a cup.

Zeroknowledge* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:55 AM
  #207
Subban76
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,332
vCash: 500
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/playe...13QuNe28fCfgM6

Here are Penner's stats. Where is he better than Andrei? The guy is 2 and 3/4, almost 3 years older. At the same age, Andrei as good as Penner. Penner did 17 goals and 37 pts at Andrei's age.

I don't get some people sometime. Andrei hits way more than Penner and we need that, A LOT!

And what if Andrrei scores 30 next year at 27, yes, 27, a an age where soem players start to mature and be more consistent.

Anyhow, Penner for a 1st and Tinordi would have been the dumbest move ever. Is Andrei worth that? No. Is Andrei as good as Penner, Yes.

Subban76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 06:35 AM
  #208
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
The words 'consistent' and 'dustin penner' do not belong in the same thought process. Wow.
Sure they don't. Only 20 wingers have more goals than him over the past 4 years and only 11 over the last 2. He is the definition of consistent.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 07:48 AM
  #209
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Sure they don't. Only 20 wingers have more goals than him over the past 4 years and only 11 over the last 2. He is the definition of consistent.
Definition of consistent?

The guy had 36 points in his first 32 games last year, then had 27 in his last 50, which is just barely over .5 ppg.

Also effort wise, the guy has been crapped on as much as Andrei has for effort in Penner's time in edmonton. Ask MacTavish how consistent he thinks Penner is.

If he wasn't getting paid 4.25 million for another year(which he doesn't deserve and which we can't afford to commit) and if the price to acquire him wasn't so ridiculous, then I would have gone for it. But, that's assuming a lot. The last thing Montreal needs to do is commit 4.25 million of the cap next year on another player who doesn't deserve it and another player who doesn't bring it every night.

As for this proposal, People forget that LA offered a conditional 2nd or 3rd to end up acquiring Penner, we would have to have at least the same, which have been even more of an overpayment than what this proposal is.

Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 05:43 PM
  #210
habsjunkie2*
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Definition of consistent?

The guy had 36 points in his first 32 games last year, then had 27 in his last 50, which is just barely over .5 ppg.

Also effort wise, the guy has been crapped on as much as Andrei has for effort in Penner's time in edmonton. Ask MacTavish how consistent he thinks Penner is.

If he wasn't getting paid 4.25 million for another year(which he doesn't deserve and which we can't afford to commit) and if the price to acquire him wasn't so ridiculous, then I would have gone for it. But, that's assuming a lot. The last thing Montreal needs to do is commit 4.25 million of the cap next year on another player who doesn't deserve it and another player who doesn't bring it every night.

As for this proposal, People forget that LA offered a conditional 2nd or 3rd to end up acquiring Penner, we would have to have at least the same, which have been even more of an overpayment than what this proposal is.
You know my thoughts on those people who bash ak for his lack of effort. They are mostly full of ****. Same thing for Penner. He is worth every penny of his 4.25million. We are not comparing a proposal with another pick, the proposed deal was Tinordi and a 1st, lets not assume we need to add to that. Perhaps Edmonton thought more of Tinordi than they did Teubert.

Top 20 in goals scored for wingers over the last 4 years trumps any poor stretch he may have had in an individual season. All scorers have ups and downs. He's been very consistent. Those who call him lazy, don't watch him play. Someone his size tends to look lazy with his long stride ect, but Penner is far from lazy and doesn't mind defending his teammates either.

habsjunkie2* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 06:54 PM
  #211
tinyzombies
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Calif via Montreal
Posts: 11,453
vCash: 500
I think Hal Gill might be a better skater.

Either way, I'm gonna get an up-close and personal look tonight. Fourth row on the glass in Penner's left wing corner for two periods (and Doughty's right side corner for one).

Go Kings (official 2nd fav team)

tinyzombies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 07:09 PM
  #212
le_sean
Registered User
 
le_sean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ottawa
Country: Vatican City State
Posts: 15,060
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
I think Hal Gill might be a better skater.

Either way, I'm gonna get an up-close and personal look tonight. Fourth row on the glass in Penner's left wing corner for two periods (and Doughty's right side corner for one).

Go Kings (official 2nd fav team)


Seems fine to me. Not speedy, but if he was, we'd be talking about the best power forward in the game.

le_sean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-07-2011, 07:41 PM
  #213
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
What's getting lost in the AK comparisons, the price to pay, and all other excuses to justify the inaction by management, is the fact that big top 6 forwards are not often available and when they are, they come at a premium because every team is looking for them.

So people can talk all they want that he's not worth this or that, the facts aren't lying: the market is dictated by what teams are willing to pay and the the Kings paid it so that's what the market was for a guy like him, like it or not.

Horton was available and Boston paid an hefty price to get him, and so did the Kings. Penner is what the Habs don't have: a big body with good hands to complement the smaller other top 6 in Montreal as let's face it... I'd rather see Penner with Plekanec than Halpern!

Habsterix* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-08-2011, 01:41 AM
  #214
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
What's getting lost in the AK comparisons, the price to pay, and all other excuses to justify the inaction by management, is the fact that big top 6 forwards are not often available and when they are, they come at a premium because every team is looking for them.

So people can talk all they want that he's not worth this or that, the facts aren't lying: the market is dictated by what teams are willing to pay and the the Kings paid it so that's what the market was for a guy like him, like it or not.

Horton was available and Boston paid an hefty price to get him, and so did the Kings. Penner is what the Habs don't have: a big body with good hands to complement the smaller other top 6 in Montreal as let's face it... I'd rather see Penner with Plekanec than Halpern!
If we are going to pay $4.25M for a guy one year away from free agency, I'd rather pay $5M and get many years of a guy via the UFA market, and save the youth we would have to sacrifice for just one year and a bit of a guy who will likely not stay past his contract.

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-08-2011, 02:40 AM
  #215
Next Best Thing*
 
Next Best Thing*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 6,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I don't think many people would choose AK over Penner. However AK is on our team and to get Penner we would have had to pay a hefty price.

I could buy a new car that's slightly (but obviously) better than mine but it would cost a fair amount of money. Meanwhile selling my used car would fetch me very little. See my point? The upgrade did not seem worth the cost for Pierre Gauthier, and honestly I agree with him.
Don't even bother his hate for Andrei is over the top irrational. He'd trade him for Brule if the chance presented itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Horton was available and Boston paid an hefty price to get him, and so did the Kings. Penner is what the Habs don't have: a big body with good hands to complement the smaller other top 6 in Montreal as let's face it... I'd rather see Penner with Plekanec than Halpern!
Gee really? We got a genious among us. So you like big forwards, eh? Gosh, I know someone who is, and is currently on fire... why do I waste my time with you.

Next Best Thing* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-08-2011, 05:18 AM
  #216
Subban76
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,332
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
What's getting lost in the AK comparisons, the price to pay, and all other excuses to justify the inaction by management, is the fact that big top 6 forwards are not often available and when they are, they come at a premium because every team is looking for them.

So people can talk all they want that he's not worth this or that, the facts aren't lying: the market is dictated by what teams are willing to pay and the the Kings paid it so that's what the market was for a guy like him, like it or not. Horton was available and Boston paid an hefty price to get him, and so did the Kings. Penner is what the Habs don't have: a big body with good hands to complement the smaller other top 6 in Montreal as let's face it... I'd rather see Penner with Plekanec than Halpern!
Like it or not, teams sometime overpay and what a team pays is not necessary what the market was willing to pay but what that team was willing to pay. That is basic stuff.

Like it or not, almost every expert and fan laughed at that trade and immediately called it a huge overpayment and the worst trade of trade deadline.

Those are facts.

And Penner as something like 4 shots in 3 games with LA, nothing very impressive for a guy coming to a new team in a playoff run.

Subban76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-08-2011, 08:13 AM
  #217
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,441
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flowerpower13 View Post
MTL fans wants every player drafted and traded.

Mtl fans and many fans around the league have a very simplistic way of quantifying and differentiating talent.

I'm willing to sacrafice some talent and picks to get better, but that trade wasn't IT... by a mile.

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-08-2011, 11:05 AM
  #218
Analyzer
#WeAreBoston
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Renfrew, ON.
Country: Canada
Posts: 40,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Just a few of the first page of NHL.com in hits, not even going further...

Schenn
Seabrook
Greene
Weber
Orpik
Gleason
Peckham
Girardi
Murray
O'Brien
Meszaros
Seidenberg
Zanon
Erskine
Phaneuf
Methot
Ristric
Sbisa
Coburn
Sarich


How are Tinordi and that first round pick guaranteed NHL'ers playing a minimum of 7 years each? Do we have to go through the draft system to show that if there is one guarantee in drafting, it's that there are no such guarantees?

Just to show how ridiculous it is to presume entirely one way not counting the other possibilities, here's a scenario along the same lines:

A Dustin Penner re-signing in Montreal, playing at least 6-7 years is better than Tinordi not making the NHL and that 1st round pick not making it to the NHL either.

See what I mean?

Come on people. You don't like Penner? That's fine. But you don't know, I don't know, no one knows if Tinordi will ever have the impact that some put on him. As a matter of fact, we don't know if he'll even make the NHL one day! So please don't base your judgment on pipe dreams. We've seen way too many of them fall to the way side.
If you're basing a stay at home defenseman on hits, then power forwards should be based on the same, no ? In which case Penner isn't even one. He averages less than a hit per game.

Analyzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-08-2011, 11:08 AM
  #219
tinyzombies
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Calif via Montreal
Posts: 11,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Mtl fans and many fans around the league have a very simplistic way of quantifying and differentiating talent.

I'm willing to sacrafice some talent and picks to get better, but that trade wasn't IT... by a mile.
I wouldn't say a mile. I would prefer Byfuglien, but I saw Penner up close last night and he brings a lot to the table, including possession time in the offensive zone that creates those second and third chances.

Fast skater, decent acceleration for his size, but his balance and center of gravity isn't where it should be. His agility is better than Buff tho. His legs look small compared to his upper body. I think Chara and Pronger would have it easy with him. He has very good hands and is a good passer. More of a skill guy who can cycle than a power forward. He lets himself get boxed out too often. He hustles though, good backchecker. At least he is so far with LA. Not a dominating force down low though. That's not his game. He did come off the wall with the puck to the net once, but he is kind of happy to just cycle with it a bit. Turns it over on the wall too. I'm guessing the physical element to his game was more a component of the Getzlaf line when he was in Anaheim just because of the combination of players. He doesn't consistently play that way at all. Even still, he's easily a top line winger with us and would have brought some badly needed size and skill.

Solid player who could have definitely helped the Habs. And, as a previous poster said, he is 11th amongst all wingers in goals over the last four seasons.

Not saying he's worth the price of Tinordi and a first though. In the end, I don't think he's a difference maker in a series against Philly or Boston, so I agree with the decision PG made.

And, of course, his wife LIVES in LA and he probably would have signed there anyway after his contract. Why waste assets?


Last edited by tinyzombies: 03-08-2011 at 01:09 PM.
tinyzombies is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.