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Old
03-07-2011, 09:23 PM
  #76
StaalWars
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I just did a cursory glance of Matt Gilroy as far as his advanced-stats go. It's seemed to me all season that this coaching staff has shielded Gilroy big time. The tough defensive assignments have fallen primarily on Staal/Girardi and secondarily on Sauer/Mcdonagh as of recently. Looks like I was right.

Very rarely do I see anyone in Rangerland doing advanced-stats analysis. It's very prominent among many Oilers writers and bloggers.

One indication of a player, especially a defenseman, being kept away from tough assignments is where he is starting his shifts at even strength. Coaches will generally use their best or most trusted defenseman on defensive zone faceoffs at evens. If anyone wants to read about this, Gabe Desjardins and others have done some pretty extensive analysis into this stuff: http://behindthenet.ca/

Anyways, back to Gilroy:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66#

Gilroy, by far, leads the team in percentage of shifts started in the offensive zone. Inversely, this means that he's starting very few shifts in the defensive zone.

Off. Zone start percentages:
Gilroy - 62.3%
McCabe - 54.4%
Sauer- 52.8%
McDonagh - 52.1%
Staal- 49.4%
Girardi - 49.0%

Unsurprisingly, Staal and Girardi are being heavily leaned on. Gilroy is getting a pass.

Another one Gabe's advanced stats ratings is QUALCOMP- or Quality of Competition. Basically a rough gauge of the type of players that a d-man or forward is on the ice against at even strength. Once again, Gilroy is last on the team in this gauge by a large margin with Girardi and Staal far ahead of all other defensemen on the team:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66#

BTW, Girardi is in some pretty elite company when it comes to QUALCOMP. He's 6th in the league amongst D-men, behind Lidstrom, Seabrook, Keith, Bouwmeester and Regehr.

Gilroy? 3rd last in the NHL in terms of QUALCOMP amongst D-men that have played 40 games:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66#

Here's another gem:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66#

Amongst D-men that have played at least 40 games LEAGUEWIDE, Matt Gilroy starts the lowest percentage of his shifts in the defensive or neutral zones. Do you guys realize the magnitude of that? No other D-man in the league, on a percentage basis, is being given the territorial cushion that Matt Gilroy receives. You know what else that means?

This coaching staff knows he sucks. They are terrified to put him in situations where his awful defense may be exposed (the PK and defensive zone faceoffs) and they don't think he's good enough to merit time on the PP. He's done after this season.

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03-07-2011, 09:26 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
How much $$$ are we saving with a clear-cut upgrade over Gilroy, btw? As much as some of you guys dislike him, he's nowhere near as incompetent as Del Zotto in the defensive zone.

We brought in Kalinin a few years ago. He was a 27 year old veteran, signed to a 2M(?) contract. He put up like a dozen points, and was our bottom-pairing scapegoat.

Were you guys happier with Bozo? What was his salary again? How old was he as a Ranger? What did he produce?

Backman, anyone? That's a nice bottom-pairing dmen, with some offensive skill. Sad thing is he didn't know how to play defense. He was brutal. A true liability.

Gilroy is just a 3rd pairing dmen at this stage in his pubescent NHL career. Only a hater would just, expect him to stop progressing. Experience alone will make him twice the dmen in a few more season's. Some training, and confidence will expand his offensive game.

Is he worth the trouble of re-signing and developing? If you patient, then yes. If not, then no.

Not that it matters much, but I'd rather have Gilroy @2M than Boogey @1.6M. If we want to penny-pinch, there are ways to free up room.

Are you trying to justify bringing Gilroy back by comparing him to Christian Backman and Dmitri Kalinin?

That's your argument?

And if by Bozo you're referring to Rozsival then you really are clueless. Gilroy would have work magic to ever be one third of the player Rozsival has been in this league.

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03-07-2011, 09:29 PM
  #78
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StaalWars that's great stuff. I don't envy you trying to talk statistical analysis to most on this board though.

I could've told you all of that just from watching this year but you actually verifying it is crazy.

What blows my mind on top of that is even though in my head I already knew all of what you just said, he STILL seems to find a way to be on the ice for huge goals and scoring chances that he's the direct result of.

Kids gonna be playing with Boomer on LI in no time.

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03-07-2011, 09:32 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Are you trying to justify bringing Gilroy back by comparing him to Christian Backman and Dmitri Kalinin?That's your argument?
Only a fool would assume that was my argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
And if by Bozo you're referring to Rozsival then you really are clueless. Gilroy would have work magic to ever be one third of the player Rozsival has been in this league.


There's only 1 Bozo. It certainly wasn't Rozsival. I was Pro-Rozy.

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03-07-2011, 09:42 PM
  #80
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He is our #6 dman. It shouldn't surprise any of you that he has the lowest QUALCOMP and Offensive zone starts on the team. Our top pairing is highest in the league in those stats, so it would make sense for our bottom pairing to be among the lowest.

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03-07-2011, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Only a fool would assume that was my argument.





There's only 1 Bozo. It certainly wasn't Rozsival. I was Pro-Rozy.

Hah how could I ever forget Sandy. Not sure why my mind went to Rozy. I guess all the hate for him from some.

Still from re-reading your post all I can gather is that you kind of have a what the hell attitude towards whatever he'd get for next year.

There's no way we offer him a QO. I just don't see it. He can't get a raise. Period.

Would he re-sign for less? I mean maybe. But I doubt it. A player like him will probably want to start fresh with a team that is willing to give him more minutes and see what he can do. Which, based on what we've seen, will be a disaster. But that of course is just my opinion.

Why would Gilroy come back here though if we dont offer him a QO? I just don't see it.

And I also don't understand the argument about ohh well how much money would it really cost us to bring him back?

Well for starters it will still cost us more than any kid we can bring up from Hartford. And that in and of itself is too much. Especially considering people who watch Hartford as much as they can seem to think we have players who can at least play formidable defense in their own zone down in Hartford and would be making less money then that waste Gilroy.


Let's face it. Gilroy got her on reputation and college accolades. Good for him. I hope he makes good money elsewhere. He just serves no purpose in an organization with defensive depth and that's actually looking to get BETTER.

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03-07-2011, 09:45 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by New England Hockey View Post
He is our #6 dman. It shouldn't surprise any of you that he has the lowest QUALCOMP and Offensive zone starts on the team. Our top pairing is highest in the league in those stats, so it would make sense for our bottom pairing to be among the lowest.
So you're justifying why he sucks?

How come someone named New England Hockey and people from Long Island are the only people who seem to support this guy and see a different game than the rest of us?

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03-07-2011, 09:50 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
So you're justifying why he sucks?

How come someone named New England Hockey and people from Long Island are the only people who seem to support this guy and see a different game than the rest of us?
New York isn't even a part of New England . Why would i hold him to a different standard than anyone else? You aren't calling for Del Zotto's head. You are holding him to a double standard. You are making it obvious.

For the record, qualcomp and zone starts aren't the best gauge of a second year hockey players abilities. Especially when he is on a team with exceptional defensive depth.

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03-07-2011, 09:55 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
So you're justifying why he sucks?
Today, he does kind of suck. His flaws are evident. Rookies like Sauer+McDonagh have already been trusted with much bigger roles than Matt, despite their difference in NHL experience.

Tomorrow could very well be different. Things could click. It's not ludacrus to assume he progresses. There are aspects of his game that are non-existent on our blue-line. Whether he takes his tools and uses them the right way is hit/miss. It's a gamble. A lopsided one at that.

At worst we're looking at 2M~. That's not a huge gamble. If we absolutely needed that cap space, then I'd say farewell to Gilroy. I'd rather see Boogey, or even Avery's contract somehow vanish before Matt's. He at least has some upside.

Gilroy's potential replacement could very well cost around the same as his QO, but be equal to his current defensive play, minus the upside. Or, we could get lucky, and have another prospect from Hartford steal a roster spot -- Regardless, there's always has, and there always will be a market for NHL dmen, and Gilroy has proven to be that. Not always, but more-so than not.

I'd give him another shot, unless I absolutely needed the extra cap space.

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03-07-2011, 09:57 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by New England Hockey View Post
He is our #6 dman. It shouldn't surprise any of you that he has the lowest QUALCOMP and Offensive zone starts on the team. Our top pairing is highest in the league in those stats, so it would make sense for our bottom pairing to be among the lowest.
The impact of Gilroy being so weak defensively and the coaching staff being terrified to put him in defensive situations is that guys like Staal and Girardi are having to shoulder massive burdens. I'll give you an analogy.

You ever play a pick-up game of basketball with your friends? I remember when I was in high school there was always one guy on the team that was just absolutely awful, so awful that everyone else on the team realized it was better not to even pass him the ball. That put an extra burden on the other 4 guys and made it easier for the opposition to defend them.

Right now, Matt Gilroy is the awkward and clumsy guy with glasses that everyone is scared to pass to. He's the guy forcing everyone else to work harder.

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Originally Posted by New England Hockey View Post
For the record, qualcomp and zone starts aren't the best gauge of a second year hockey players abilities. Especially when he is on a team with exceptional defensive depth.
What exceptional defensive depth? Did you know that Sauer and McDonagh were ready to play top-4 minutes before this season started?

Gilroy got passed over because he's not as good as Sauer and McDonagh. He has had every opportunity to gain the coaching staff's trust and merit more ice time. He hasn't. The defensive responsibilities are being passed on to McDonagh and Sauer and rightfully so. The PP responsibilities, which is where you would think an "offensive defenseman" like Gilroy would be looked to by the coaching staff, are being passed on to every single forward or D-man on the team not named Gilroy. Again, rightfully so, since his offensive game is only a little bit better than his defensive game, which is amongst the worst in the league.

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03-07-2011, 09:59 PM
  #86
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Anyone with some time want to post who every team has as their #6~#7 dmen? Salary, Contract, Ice-time, and Production.



Edit: I'm looking at you, Steven~ You're the only one with enough time for this.

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03-07-2011, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
The impact of Gilroy being so weak defensively and the coaching staff being terrified to put him in defensive situations is that guys like Staal and Girardi are having to shoulder massive burdens. I'll give you an analogy.

You ever play a pick-up game of basketball with your friends? I remember when I was in high school there was always one guy on the team that was just absolutely awful, so awful that everyone else on the team realized it was better not to even pass him the ball. That put an extra burden on the other 4 guys and made it easier for the opposition to defend them.

Right now, Matt Gilroy is the awkward and clumsy guy with glasses that everyone is scared to pass to. He's the guy forcing everyone else to work harder.



What exceptional defensive depth? Did you know that Sauer and McDonagh were ready to play top-4 minutes before this season started?

Gilroy got passed over because he's not as good as Sauer and McDonagh. He has had every opportunity to gain the coaching staff's trust and merit more ice time. He hasn't. The defensive responsibilities are being passed on to McDonagh and Sauer and rightfully so. The PP responsibilities, which is where you would think an "offensive defenseman" like Gilroy would be looked to by the coaching staff, are being passed on to every single forward or D-man on the team not named Gilroy. Again, rightfully so, since his offensive game is only a little bit better than his defensive game, which is amongst the worst in the league.
Why isn't Eminger playing over Gilroy?
If Matt is so unreliable, why does the coaching staff grant him PP time?

Is this the same blueprint that labeled Staal as the best dmen in hockey?

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03-07-2011, 10:15 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by New England Hockey View Post
New York isn't even a part of New England . Why would i hold him to a different standard than anyone else? You aren't calling for Del Zotto's head. You are holding him to a double standard. You are making it obvious.

For the record, qualcomp and zone starts aren't the best gauge of a second year hockey players abilities. Especially when he is on a team with exceptional defensive depth.
Yes I am aware that New York is not part of New England. Are you aware he went to BU? Which, if I'm correct....but why don't you make sure for me.....is in New England.


The stats just verify what MY EYES tell me. And that's what matters.

Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't watch ever second of every game, I'm sorry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Today, he does kind of suck. His flaws are evident. Rookies like Sauer+McDonagh have already been trusted with much bigger roles than Matt, despite their difference in NHL experience.

Tomorrow could very well be different. Things could click. It's not ludacrus to assume he progresses. There are aspects of his game that are non-existent on our blue-line. Whether he takes his tools and uses them the right way is hit/miss. It's a gamble. A lopsided one at that.

At worst we're looking at 2M~. That's not a huge gamble. If we absolutely needed that cap space, then I'd say farewell to Gilroy. I'd rather see Boogey, or even Avery's contract somehow vanish before Matt's. He at least has some upside.

Gilroy's potential replacement could very well cost around the same as his QO, but be equal to his current defensive play, minus the upside. Or, we could get lucky, and have another prospect from Hartford steal a roster spot -- Regardless, there's always has, and there always will be a market for NHL dmen, and Gilroy has proven to be that. Not always, but more-so than not.

I'd give him another shot, unless I absolutely needed the extra cap space.

I understand your point but it seems every year we ALWAYS need the extra cap space.

I believe there's a few guys in our system who could easily provide better defense and other intangibles on our blue line as Gilroy and for basically league minimum.

Why pay Gilroy 2 million just to give him a third chance at figuring things out when you can better you team and save money?

It makes no sense.

If Gilroy wants to come back on 2 way contract and risk playing in the AHL (which is where he'd end up) then so be it.

I'll take that. He can play in Hartford (where he should have been year 1 and maybe this year would've been different) and we can take time and see if he ever develops.

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03-07-2011, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Why isn't Eminger playing over Gilroy?
I don't know, it's a good question. Probably because Eminger isn't much better.

Quote:
If Matt is so unreliable, why does the coaching staff grant him PP time?
He averages 1:19 seconds of PP time. I'd be interested to see exactly what type of situations he's getting this PP time. Visually, it seems to me like Gilroy's minutes get upped when the games are out of hand. He got more than 3 minutes of PP time against Philadelphia. The loss against Minnesota? 0 minutes of PP time. The game against Buffalo? 0 minutes of PP time. The 2-1 loss to Tampa Bay, where we had big powerplays all over the place? 0 minutes of PP time for Gilroy.

Regardless, 1:19 for a supposed "offensive" defenseman on a team with an awful power play? That's peanuts and that number will only go down now that McCabe is here.

Quote:
Is this the same blueprint that labeled Staal as the best dmen in hockey?
If you don't believe in the merits of advanced-stats analysis there is no need to voice your disapproval rhetorically. Within the hockey world, you would certainly be in the majority if you held that opinion. This just happens to be one instance where the impressions that I've gotten from watching every game this season were confirmed and reinforced by actually delving into the numbers.

I've said it another thread and I'll say it again. Gilroy is an offensive defenseman who contributes almost nothing offensively. If you don't like looking at a wall of stats, that's really all you need to know.

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03-07-2011, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Why isn't Eminger playing over Gilroy?
If Matt is so unreliable, why does the coaching staff grant him PP time?

Is this the same blueprint that labeled Staal as the best dmen in hockey?
Torts' decision to play Gilroy over Eminger has been more than questionable to anyone with eyes.

If you're basing it on blind faith in the coach then no one can argue you.

But anyone who has watched has a big problem with this, and has had it for a while now.

Just because Torts is making a horrible decision for some reason unbeknown to us doesn't make it right.

My opinion is Torts really believes his youth comments, and like you've asked for he has sacrificed games this year in hopes that Gilroy develops. It hasn't worked though.

And Staal is pretty nasty btw. He's pretty damn nasty.

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03-07-2011, 10:29 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Anyone with some time want to post who every team has as their #6~#7 dmen? Salary, Contract, Ice-time, and Production.

Damnit, more long comparison typing, I can't resist it.

Let's just go with some random teams.

Washington, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Montreal, Calgary. I literally just pulled these out of my ass, no basis for comparisons whatsoever.

Capitals:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

Poti is 7th, but he has a BAD injury, so Erskine it is.

15:00 TOI/G, 10P in 63 GP, -3, 87 PIMs. More of a tough guy defenseman, but he's relatively solid in his own end. Set to make 1.5M cap hit for 2 seasons. Less than Gilroy, currently.

Penguins:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

A little hard to sort out. Engelland ends up the 7th when properly re-arranged. 13:25 TOI/G, 9P in 53 GP. 556k~ cap hit for 3 seasons. IMO a steal. Usually pretty solid in his own end, another in the Eriskine mold.

St. Louis:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

Tyson Strachan, it seems. 12:12 in 28~ games, 1 points. 600k cap hit for one year. He looked okay in my viewings of the Blues. Better than Girloy.

Montreal:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

Have to consider injuries. Picard seems to be it. 16:19 per game. 7P in 38GP. 600k cap hit.

Calgary:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

Remove White/Brodie, Adam Pardy ends up at 7th. 14:14 TOI/G, 7P in 30GP. 700K cap hit until the end of the season. Big fan of his, actually.

Compared to Gilroy, looks much better, no?

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03-07-2011, 10:35 PM
  #92
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SM, you notice a trend there? Not only are all those guys cheaper than Gilroy but they are all significantly tougher.

D-men with offensive skills are in such high demand that teams that have them usually don't treat them like 6th D-men. You have the rare exception with guys like MA Bergeron who are offensive specialists and on the PP and merit roster spots but are so bad defensively that you can consider them as #6 D. Honestly, I'd even put Del Zotto in that category during his time with the Rangers this season. Del Zotto, as bad as he was defensively, still has the second highest PP TOI/G for us at 3:45.

Gilroy is just nothing. Bad defensively, not as tough as your prototypical 6th D and not good enough offensively to even be considered a specialist.

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03-07-2011, 10:36 PM
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I'm really not getting this thread.

All I'm saying is that I believe that Gilroy is the 6th best D man the Rangers have as of now. If it takes 2 mil to bring him back I would pass.

If he can be brought back cheaper than I would give him a shot to compete against anyone in camp for the 6th D spot. If he doesn't earn it then he doesn't make the team.

If he wins the job then what's the issue?

If he signs elsewhere then what's the debate?

It really seems easy to me... but then again I'm not getting this thread.

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03-07-2011, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
I'm really not getting this thread.

All I'm saying is that I believe that Gilroy is the 6th best D man the Rangers have as of now. If it takes 2 mil to bring him back I would pass.

If he can be brought back cheaper than I would give him a shot to compete against anyone in camp for the 6th D spot. If he doesn't earn it then he doesn't make the team.

If he wins the job then what's the issue?

If he signs elsewhere then what's the debate?

It really seems easy to me... but then again I'm not getting this thread.
He can't be brought back cheaper and he won't win the job. There is no issue. Problem solved.

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03-07-2011, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
He can't be brought back cheaper and he won't win the job. There is no issue. Problem solved.
Oh. I didn't know that. So if the best offer he receives is 1 mil from another team then the Rangers can only get him back if the pay the 2? Is that right?

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03-07-2011, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
He can't be brought back cheaper and he won't win the job. There is no issue. Problem solved.
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
I'm really not getting this thread.

All I'm saying is that I believe that Gilroy is the 6th best D man the Rangers have as of now. If it takes 2 mil to bring him back I would pass.

If he can be brought back cheaper than I would give him a shot to compete against anyone in camp for the 6th D spot. If he doesn't earn it then he doesn't make the team.

If he wins the job then what's the issue?

If he signs elsewhere then what's the debate?

It really seems easy to me... but then again I'm not getting this thread.
Re-read your prior post. The one you failed to respond to anything I said to you.

You say all these things as if Gilroy is the one getting the raw deal and you think he has potential to turn into this offensive guru when he leaves here.

Why would he come back cheaper if he has the potential you speak of?

We have to make him a QO or more than what he makes now. We won't.

Chances are he is gone.

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03-07-2011, 10:49 PM
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Oh. I didn't know that. So if the best offer he receives is 1 mil from another team then the Rangers can only get him back if the pay the 2? Is that right?
He's an RFA. We have to offer him a QO for more than his current salary. Why on earth would we?

And if we didn't, why on earth would he come back here?

I'm going to assume you don't follow the A or any other teams around the league, but finding a #6 dman that's cheaper and plays better than Gilroy will not be hard to do.

And that in and of itself is an upgrade.

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03-07-2011, 10:50 PM
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Gilroy needs to be qualified this summer at 100% of his salary this season, which is $2.1 million. The Rangers will not qualify him at that price, and he will become a UFA. This is a no-brainer.

Taking a chance on Gilroy coming out of college was definitely a risk worth taking, but he is an offensive defenseman who does not create offense and has not improved in 2 seasons in the NHL. He's going to be 27 in July. He has been surpassed by younger defensemen in the organization, and you DO NOT pay $2.1 million for a #6/#7 defenseman in the salary cap era. The Rangers will easily be able to replace him with another kid in the organization or through UFA, for less than half the price.

The Rangers will need money this summer to re-sign Dubi, Cally, Anisimov and Sauer, as well as hopefully adding Richards or another 1st line center through free agency or trade.

Gilroy may catch on with another team and play in the NHL, but not at $2.1 million.

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03-07-2011, 10:58 PM
  #99
ltrangerfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Re-read your prior post. The one you failed to respond to anything I said to you.

You say all these things as if Gilroy is the one getting the raw deal and you think he has potential to turn into this offensive guru when he leaves here.

Why would he come back cheaper if he has the potential you speak of?

We have to make him a QO or more than what he makes now. We won't.

Chances are he is gone.
1)Gilroy getting a raw deal? Never said he was. Based on his current play he isn't worth bringing back at 2 mil.
2)The key is how much will it cost to have him back? For a price I play. Not sure about the rules of getting him back ? I assumed he was a free agent and could be brought back for a lower price if he and the management was willing.
3) I said I believe he is on the improve. I said my gut tells me he might be a late bloomer and on the verge of breaking out. If another team thinks he has the potential he isn't coming back. That's what my bet is.

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03-07-2011, 11:02 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
1)Gilroy getting a raw deal? Never said he was. Based on his current play he isn't worth bringing back at 2 mil.
2)The key is how much will it cost to have him back? For a price I play. Not sure about the rules of getting him back ? I assumed he was a free agent and could be brought back for a lower price if he and the management was willing.
3) I said I believe he is on the improve. I said my gut tells me he might be a late bloomer and on the verge of breaking out. If another team thinks he has the potential he isn't coming back. That's what my bet is.

I'd say all of that is highly unlikely. The odds of him coming back are slim to none, and the odds of him ever breaking out are even slimmer.

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