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John Tortorella Discussion (Update: Torts extended 3 years)

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03-07-2011, 11:16 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Having a clue would also entail being able to recognize the differences between the veteran filled rosters that limped into the playoffs 4 years in a row and the young and inexperienced roster we have today....

When it comes to just making the playoffs:

Jagr/Nylander/Straka/Shanahan/Gomez/Drury > Gaborik/Prospal/washed up Drury

I would hope that limping into the playoffs with veteran, out of their prime players, and seeing inevitable early round exits isn't one's criteria for being a happy Ranger fan.
This is all true. However, this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSantos View Post
Wow the "anti-Torts" still runs deep on this board.

You'd think an exciting, fun-filled season would make people happy but some people never are.

You'd think playing tons of young home-grown players would make people happy.

You'd think watching the pack line on Sunday would make people happy.

Man.
...is all HIGHLY subjective. Sunday is not that often for this club. And while we have had a lovely share of blowout wins, nearly all of them had a lot to do with the other team playing like absolute crap for the majority of the game, if not all of it. The Rangers don't come close to replicating that kind of production or offensive style when the other team is in the game.

For me, excitement and fun involves watching an elite offensive team. A team that can actually execute picture perfect hockey more than just once in a while. That's a lot more exciting and fun than watching a team have to bang it out most of the time because they can't buy a ****ing skill goal. It'd be a different story if success was not far back in the rear view mirror, but it isn't. This is yet another year where we have to watch a mediocre team. It's not picking on the players. They are, for the most part, very impressive...for what they are. And, more often than not, incapable of showing what they aren't. It's about the general success, or lack there of, for the franchise.

On the other hand, that's not Tortorella's fault. Not a reason to get rid of him. And there is no reason to get rid of him at the moment. I still believe that he is a coach that is much better suited for an older team that is more serious about being a contender, but if they get Richards, that'll be a lot more like that scenario. I think he has a good effect on some players, but the way he handles others irks me.

Tortorella just doesn't deserve to be fired, however. He is not the reason this team doesn't have a first line.

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03-07-2011, 11:24 PM
  #252
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To reiterate my point of view...I do not believe he should be fired after this season. But if we don't make the playoffs this year AND next year? Absolutely.


My main disagreement is how Torts not deserving to be fire = he's doing a great job.

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03-07-2011, 11:44 PM
  #253
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I'm pretty sure I said this would be the result before the season started, a team struggling to sneak into the playoffs. As someone who watched Torts in TB for several seasons, this isn't his ideal style. I'm honestly a little surprised he hasn't torn his hair out due to boredom yet, as he much prefers a wide open style of play and really needs fluid skaters.

On the other hand, he HATED Prospal in TB, largely because he couldn't skate and play the transition game Torts likes, but the two are co-existing, so maybe he's changed.

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03-08-2011, 12:07 AM
  #254
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Torts is a top candidate for coach of the year, and people want to see him canned?

He's the best man for the job right now. The fact the Rangers are still in the position they are in despite all their injuries and the amount of rookies (especially on defense) that had to be counted on for big minutes is a testament to his coaching and his handling of the team.

The Rangers have something really good going on here. We are still missing a key piece or two to get us over the hump and into the upper echelon of contenders, but the core and the foundation of this team is STRONG. Something that we have not seen in 15 years.

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03-08-2011, 01:05 AM
  #255
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Playoffs or no this is a team I really like. I also like how they are coached.

No way Torts gets canned.

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03-08-2011, 02:07 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Show me another team whose GM committed $10 mil to two forwards who produced a grand total of 20 points this season. What other teams currently holding playoff positions are getting this kind of value from $10 mil in cap space relegated to 2 top 9 forwards???



Uh what????? If a discussion about cap hits and injuries, as they related to team depth, is over your head, just let me know and I'll stop now... Tell me how you, as a coach, fill the void left by two players soaking up $10 mil in cap space combining for 20 points and suffering season ending injuries... This can't be any more clear... We have crappy depth that can't compensate for colossal failure contract & performances from players who were signed to play important roles on this team.
You seem to be of the belief that because a player is paid more he is difficult to replace when he stinks. There is nothing in sports easier to replace than a vastly underperforming, overpaid player.

Most understand by the time they are out of diapers that having the biggest salaries does not guarantee the best product on the ice. If you make a bad signing, you don't keep rolling him out there. You lose him. You seem to be espousing Satherlogic, the exact reason for all of the contracts doled out to underachievers.

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03-08-2011, 02:10 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Draft Guru View Post
Torts is a top candidate for coach of the year, and people want to see him canned?.
I haven't advanced that we should fire Torts, but if you think he's getting any votes for Coach of the Year, I'm assuming that you think the Rangers won't be losing any more games this season, because that is what it would take.

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03-08-2011, 02:23 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by donGjohnson View Post
I'm pretty sure I said this would be the result before the season started, a team struggling to sneak into the playoffs. As someone who watched Torts in TB for several seasons, this isn't his ideal style. I'm honestly a little surprised he hasn't torn his hair out due to boredom yet, as he much prefers a wide open style of play and really needs fluid skaters.

On the other hand, he HATED Prospal in TB, largely because he couldn't skate and play the transition game Torts likes, but the two are co-existing, so maybe he's changed.

I think torts has changed A LOT since his days in Tampa. If anything proves this its the fact that he doesn't only COUNT on prospal but actually leans on him and often talks highly of him.

When prospal was playing last year, he was one of torts favorite players on the team as he made it quite obvious through his interviews, amount of ice time and giving him the A.

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03-08-2011, 08:09 AM
  #259
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On certain levels he's been a real solid coach. One major thing is he seems to be able to keep Sather's insanity in check and seems to have helped stabilize and mold the team's direction. He's gotten a few guys to play well above expectations (i.e., Boyle, Prust). He is doing a good job overall in developing young players. He's had a pretty good season with a very young team. Yes, I think some player personnel decisions are sometimes questionable. But if he can make some slight adjustments, I think the team is fine.

I think if he improves on x's and o's and fundamentals, or bring in an assistant who can help with this, it could make a notable difference. Rather than see him go, I think the team would benefit more from adding an assistant who is good on fundamentals and the x's and o's. Seriously, a more cohesive breakout, a little better positional play, immense work to improve faceoffs, and a slight improvement on the PP and this team has 10 more points right now.

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03-08-2011, 08:27 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You seem to be of the belief that because a player is paid more he is difficult to replace when he stinks. There is nothing in sports easier to replace than a vastly underperforming, overpaid player.

Most understand by the time they are out of diapers that having the biggest salaries does not guarantee the best product on the ice. If you make a bad signing, you don't keep rolling him out there. You lose him. You seem to be espousing Satherlogic, the exact reason for all of the contracts doled out to underachievers.
You're not following me... The whole point is that the better teams in the league who aren't struggling to limp into the playoffs, do not have multiple players soaking up significant amounts of cap space and putting up minimal production.... The Rangers had depth issues to begin with, and it hurts even more when you factor in the injuries and lack of production of said players when healthy...

Here's more perspective for you:

Gaborik / Drury / Frolov combined have 68 points in 114 games played. They take up $17.5 mil of cap space or nearly 30% of our cap... We're getting 68 points in 114 games out of 30% of our cap space.... Henrik and Daniel Sedin each have 75+ points and carry a $6.1 mil cap... One forward on Vancouver is outproducing our 3 highest paid forwards combined.


Last edited by wolfgaze: 03-08-2011 at 08:59 AM.
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03-08-2011, 08:47 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
You're not following me... The whole point is that the better teams in the league who aren't struggling to limp into the playoffs, do not have multiple players soaking up significant amounts of cap space and putting up minimal production.... The Rangers had depth issues to begin with, and it hurts even more when you factor in the injuries and lack of production of said players when healthy...

Here's more perspective for you:

Gaborik / Drury / Frolov combined have 68 points in 114 games played. They take up $17.5 mil of cap space or nearly 30% of our cap... We're getting 68 points in 114 games out of 30% of our cap space.... Henrik and Daniel Sedin each have 75+ points and carry a $6.1 mil cap... One forward on Vancouver is outproducing our 3 highest paid forwards....
Even ignoring gaborik, Drury+Frolov is basically us playing with a $49 million cap.

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03-08-2011, 08:55 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
...is all HIGHLY subjective. Sunday is not that often for this club. And while we have had a lovely share of blowout wins, nearly all of them had a lot to do with the other team playing like absolute crap for the majority of the game, if not all of it. The Rangers don't come close to replicating that kind of production or offensive style when the other team is in the game.
Of course it's subjective. I'm not quoting sources and footnoting, fer heaven's sakes.

I think you will notice, though, that a team's performance is often linked, in some "strange way" to the performance of their opponents. Like when the opponent is good, it is harder for our team to score or to prevent goals. It's weird that way in sports.

Anyway, the Rangers, in past seasons, couldn't put away ANYBODY. Now this club can. That is an improvement. It's a gestalt thing, for now. It will get better. Yes that's subjective but that's the way I am.

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03-08-2011, 10:06 AM
  #263
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Whether or not you think Gilroy has had any direct effect on those results is one thing, but actually stating that 10 points in the standings isn't statistically significant is pretty hilarious.
to try and say that our #6 d-man is the reason we didn't win 5 more games is what's hilarious.

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03-08-2011, 10:31 AM
  #264
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Torts is not a Coach of the Year, nor he is doing a bad job. He's allright, although we could have gotten someone more civilized for such a place.
If we do not make a playoffs this season he should be fired, though. That is what accountability is all about. He was hired to get us to the next level, not to get us down from where we were.

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03-08-2011, 10:46 AM
  #265
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firing torts sets this team back another year or two...easilly

even if we miss the playoffs this organization has made significant progress in regards to the big picture and building a contender

if we take a step backwards next year his ass is gone, but you dont fire the coach of a team as young and hardworking as this imo

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03-08-2011, 11:54 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
firing torts sets this team back another year or two...easilly

even if we miss the playoffs this organization has made significant progress in regards to the big picture and building a contender

if we take a step backwards next year his ass is gone, but you dont fire the coach of a team as young and hardworking as this imo
Anyone can take from where he would leave on. There is nothing unique that he was or is doing. So I don't think there will be a problem felt for a long term. Transition to Sullivan would be absolutely seamless, for instance.

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03-08-2011, 12:03 PM
  #267
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Anyone can take from where he would leave on. There is nothing unique that he was or is doing. So I don't think there will be a problem felt for a long term. Transition to Sullivan would be absolutely seamless, for instance.
Why make a change if you aren't going to change the teams philosophy? That makes no sense. You people make no sense.

We should fire Torts for a Torts clone to take over...

So in Hartford they teach the players how the NYR want them to play but then after they learn the NYR change their philosophy so that these players no longer fit into the scheme. It's so genius, why didn't I think of that!?

Why are the Devils so successful? They keep their organizational philosophy consistent. When they attempted to alter it in the beginning of the year -- complete and utter disaster. I see no reason why this same scenario does not apply to the Rangers.

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03-08-2011, 12:14 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Torts is not a Coach of the Year, nor he is doing a bad job. He's allright, although we could have gotten someone more civilized for such a place.
If we do not make a playoffs this season he should be fired, though. That is what accountability is all about. He was hired to get us to the next level, not to get us down from where we were.
The next level? I'd say we're already at the next level, despite the # of points we have. I feel much more confident in this team's ability to win than I ever felt in 08-09's.

Making the playoffs is obviously very important, but let's not lose track of the long term plan of this team.

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03-08-2011, 12:30 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
Why make a change if you aren't going to change the teams philosophy? That makes no sense. You people make no sense.

We should fire Torts for a Torts clone to take over...

So in Hartford they teach the players how the NYR want them to play but then after they learn the NYR change their philosophy so that these players no longer fit into the scheme. It's so genius, why didn't I think of that!?

Why are the Devils so successful? They keep their organizational philosophy consistent. When they attempted to alter it in the beginning of the year -- complete and utter disaster. I see no reason why this same scenario does not apply to the Rangers.
Well put.

The dismissal of a coach who embodies the franchise's direction would be a glaring mistake to make at this point. Schoenfeld, Torts, Sully, Sather all seem to be working from the same playbook marking the first time in as long as I've been a fan that I've seen the organization actually behave like a rational, self-sustaining organization.

No surprise that it took the imposition of a salary cap to achieve this.

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03-08-2011, 12:42 PM
  #270
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Why make a change if you aren't going to change the teams philosophy? That makes no sense. You people make no sense.

We should fire Torts for a Torts clone to take over...

So in Hartford they teach the players how the NYR want them to play but then after they learn the NYR change their philosophy so that these players no longer fit into the scheme. It's so genius, why didn't I think of that!?

Why are the Devils so successful? They keep their organizational philosophy consistent. When they attempted to alter it in the beginning of the year -- complete and utter disaster. I see no reason why this same scenario does not apply to the Rangers.
How can you enforce accountability with players, if it is not applicable to rulers?

As I said, Torts would need to be fired not for his work, but for result of it.

NJ changes coaches quite often. Only once it didn't work out.

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03-08-2011, 12:45 PM
  #271
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Anyone can take from where he would leave on. There is nothing unique that he was or is doing. So I don't think there will be a problem felt for a long term. Transition to Sullivan would be absolutely seamless, for instance.
You don't want Sullivan. Trust me.

Sullivan might deserve another shot at an NHL head coaching someday, but 1 year after the lockout was all it took for ppl who see the Bruins regularly (like myself) to see that Sully was stuck in pre-lockout thinking.

I have no idea if he's changed since, but I have no interest in finding out...especially with this team.




Also, seems like plenty of people around here don't know the meaning of the words overachieving. That's what this team has been doing the whole year, struggles & all.

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03-08-2011, 01:23 PM
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94now View Post
How can you enforce accountability with players, if it is not applicable to rulers?

As I said, Torts would need to be fired not for his work, but for result of it.

NJ changes coaches quite often. Only once it didn't work out.
I don't understand what your first sentence means.. I know English is not your first language but do you mean, how can we hold the players accountable if we don't hold the coach accountable as well?

My point does not change, NJ has an internal philosophy that allows them to win. It has not changed -- when coaches are hired it would seem it is under the "business as usual" situation. Maclean is an aberration to their philosophy and clearly did not work out because when watching them -- the players seemed confused, disjointed, etc. They are "trained" by the Devils to play within their team philosophy. It's why people who prognosticate their demise are foolish.

The drafting, signings, trades, etc seem to be more focused toward building a future with John Tortorella as head coach. He was brought here because Sather felt that his coaching style would fit with the organizational philosophy going forward. Obviously results will matter down the road -- when Sather feels John has the pieces to be an upper echelon team. If Tortorella fails to achieve these results, possibly next season (doubtful) or the year after he will likely be dismissed.

Note also that you are talking to me about coaching and I believe coaching is about 10% of the picture. The talent on the roster and its ability to execute the scheme and the overall management of the team (scouting, GM, development, etc) constitute about 90% of a teams success.

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03-08-2011, 01:41 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
Note also that you are talking to me about coaching and I believe coaching is about 10% of the picture. The talent on the roster and its ability to execute the scheme and the overall management of the team (scouting, GM, development, etc) constitute about 90% of a teams success.
You contradict yourself. If coaching is minor thing (to which I disagree in general, but may agree in particular) then Torts departure is not so important compare to Sather's one. Sather stepping down could be a huge difference. Tortotella's - not so much. In Sullivan we could see the continuation of the same (plus will have a man able to finish sentence at press conferences).

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03-08-2011, 01:49 PM
  #274
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So out of curiosity for the people who want Torts gone...who is gonna replace him? Cuz I really don't see many promising candidates. The team is moving in the right direction and playing a style of hockey that we haven't seen them play in a long time in NY. Let Torts keep working with the core. I certainly think he is a big reason why Sather hasn't given up any young players. While the GM makes the decisions, the coach has alot of weight in those discussions. Keep him.

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03-08-2011, 01:51 PM
  #275
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So out of curiosity for the people who want Torts gone...who is gonna replace him? Cuz I really don't see many promising candidates. The team is moving in the right direction and playing a style of hockey that we haven't seen them play in a long time in NY. Let Torts keep working with the core. I certainly think he is a big reason why Sather hasn't given up any young players. While the GM makes the decisions, the coach has alot of weight in those discussions. Keep him.
I don't see firing Torts to be any real solution to this team's problems. That said, this team is playing exactly the same kind of hockey they did the first season after the lockout.

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