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Can Brown Really Lead This Team To The Cup?

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Old
03-08-2011, 12:38 PM
  #26
Cutty Sarkn3ss*
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Being one of the most critical posters of Brown, I actually like his attitude change since the road trip. He's been involved in the scrums & post whistle activities more in the past 2 weeks then the past 2 years. If anything, this thread had come a little late.

Now, do I think he can lead this team to the cup? Honestly . . No but if he keeps playing with this new found edgy attitude, Maybe.

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03-08-2011, 12:50 PM
  #27
Andrew Knoll
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The idea lurking behind that question is that they should strip him of the C and award to someone else.

That would be unfair and ineffective.

Last year there were murmurs of stripping Mike Richards of his captaincy because he was too young, he had disappeared for stretches, the team was on the playoff bubble, etc. How did it work out for the Flyers to ignore that BS and stick with him?

Brown is not Mike Richards but he's the closest thing the Kings have and they don't have a Pronger-type guy waiting in the wings either. Smyth is the only guy I'd consider giving the captaincy to really and I don't see that as a productive change at this point or even next year.

Brown is a solid leader by example and even though he's not a rah-rah guy (I never liked those type of guys when I played or coached organized sports anyway). He makes smart decisions, he takes the body and he is a class guy about it. You rarely see a guy deliver that many hits who never leads with his elbows, targets the head, nails guys who are defenseless, etc. He's still molding himself as a player but he's got a ton of guts and as far as the captaincy goes he is making a solid effort. I think it's worth sticking with him.

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03-08-2011, 12:52 PM
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A good captain does nothing more than lead by example. He goes out and does the exact things that he requests of his teammates. From what I can see, Brown isn't lazy. He doesn't float out there. He brings it pretty much every night, every shift.

He's a good hockey player, not a great hockey player. I think too many people think he's a bad captain just because he's not a great hockey player.

As far as I know, there is no one in this discussion who is privvy to anything more than what we all see on the ice. Therefore to even have a discussion about whether he's any good is a useless cause - too much of the absoultely critical information is missing.

Can Brown lead the Kings to a Cup? Definitely. Once a coaching staff is hired that knows how to take this team to the next level offensively, and utilize the true talent this teams already has.

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03-08-2011, 12:57 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLang View Post
A good captain does nothing more than lead by example. He goes out and does the exact things that he requests of his teammates. From what I can see, Brown isn't lazy. He doesn't float out there. He brings it pretty much every night, every shift.

He's a good hockey player, not a great hockey player. I think too many people think he's a bad captain just because he's not a great hockey player.

As far as I know, there is no one in this discussion who is privvy to anything more than what we all see on the ice. Therefore to even have a discussion about whether he's any good is a useless cause - too much of the absoultely critical information is missing.

Can Brown lead the Kings to a Cup? Definitely. Once a coaching staff is hired that knows how to take this team to the next level offensively, and utilize the true talent this teams already has.
I've never called him out as being a bad Captain because of points . . it's always been his willingness to get involved emotionally & psychologically in the game that has been questioned

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03-08-2011, 01:09 PM
  #30
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With a grain of salt, lets compare Brown's captaincy to Brendan Morrow. Morrow was 26 when he replaced Modano as the Stars captain, shortly after signing a six year commitment to the organization. He had, at the time, 5 seasons and 50+ playoff games under his belt, on a franchise steeped in success from the mid-90s onward. He learned from some of the best how to win, and handles himself accordingly.

Brown had none of this. He was 3 years younger than Morrow and with nowhere near the NHL experience Morrow possessed, in terms of either quantity or quality. The Kings sucked and were going through a rebuilding phase, and he accepted the responsibility of leading it.

Brown is undoubtedly still learning how to assert himself in this position, which will come in due time. Hopefully we're seeing him develop that edge he could desperately use. He is what he is as a player, with his pros and cons, but he as our captain is not a huge deal for this team.

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03-08-2011, 01:17 PM
  #31
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I said before that the only way Brown is replaced is if Lombardi could find a Brindamour or a Messier to take his place. A character player, a leader where there is no doubt that the C belongs on that sweater rather than Browns. Looking around the league I don't see anybody with that pedigree available to trade for. I accept Brown's faults as a hockey player. He's not going to lead the league in scoring and he's going to go in slumps as well as go on hot streaks. The only thing that absolutely has to change is the willingness to skate away from scrums as though they aren't happening on the ice. Get involved, you're the leader, if you have to grab a guy just to make it look like you're involved then do it but don't turn your back on your teammates.

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03-08-2011, 01:24 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutty Sarkn3ss View Post
I've never called him out as being a bad Captain because of points . . it's always been his willingness to get involved emotionally & psychologically in the game that has been questioned
That's good because to do so would be unfair. It seems to me that so much of what might make him a good captain could be done behind the scenes, away from the eyes in the stands and the TV cameras.

The truth is the only ones that matter are Brown, his teammates, and the team's coaching and management.

So much of what will make this team successful relies on maturity and experience. I think Brown's actually in the right place at the right time to mature as a captain alongside the overall team's maturity level.

I wonder what Brown said to Doughty last night after he flubbed that pass and cost the Kings a goal? You know something was said, but what it was will never become public knowledge.

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03-08-2011, 01:27 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippery Moses View Post
With a grain of salt, lets compare Brown's captaincy to Brendan Morrow. Morrow was 26 when he replaced Modano as the Stars captain, shortly after signing a six year commitment to the organization. He had, at the time, 5 seasons and 50+ playoff games under his belt, on a franchise steeped in success from the mid-90s onward. He learned from some of the best how to win, and handles himself accordingly.
And, ironically, the Stars have been mostly mediocre since Morrow became Captain.

I thought taking away the C from Modano was one of the most classless things I've ever seen an organization do.

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03-08-2011, 01:32 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
And, ironically, the Stars have been mostly mediocre since Morrow became Captain.

I thought taking away the C from Modano was one of the most classless things I've ever seen an organization do.
... Yeah, it was total crap. Modano was the MVP of the team when they won their only Cup. Until someone else did something like that or better, the C should have stayed on Modano.

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03-08-2011, 02:01 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutty Sarkn3ss View Post
I've never called him out as being a bad Captain because of points . . it's always been his willingness to get involved emotionally & psychologically in the game that has been questioned
How on earth do you know any of that?

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03-08-2011, 02:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
And, ironically, the Stars have been mostly mediocre since Morrow became Captain.

I thought taking away the C from Modano was one of the most classless things I've ever seen an organization do.
The Stars struggles in recent years has more to do with the dismantling of an aging defense core, the decline-then-collapse of Marty Turco, and the fiscal noose knotted around management's neck by lenders during this ownership limbo.

And the Stars didn't do anything worth noting in the postseason under Modano's captaincy. nor the years proceeding since shipping off Nieuwendyk and Langebrunner. Modano was not a good captain. Not every player makes a good captain.
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Yeah, it was total crap. Modano was the MVP of the team when they won their only Cup. Until someone else did something like that or better, the C should have stayed on Modano.
Nieuwendyk MVP, Hatcher Captain, Hull GWG.

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03-08-2011, 02:12 PM
  #37
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i went back and checked, and it literally hasn't even been two months since almost the exact same thread was created. my views haven't changed since then, so i'll repost what i wrote then. the context is that people were talking about how brown was invisible, points-wise and game-changing hits wise:

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Originally Posted by Alternate Jersey View Post
i can understand the frustration, but i really disagree with the "lack of game-changing hits" part. definitely saw at least one in the last two games.

also, kind of ironic that a "lack" of this kind of hit is being brought up, because i distinctively remember other posters complaining that he was showing no accountability, specifically by dealing out the kind of hits we're talking about. it seems as if when he is hitting, he's drawing too much ire from other teams that he won't step up and answer, and when he isn't, he's not showing leadership.

we have NO idea what is being said in the locker rooms. someone on Hammond's blog mentioned that swearing by Brown publicly--that is to say, in an interview--is a big deal, because he doesn't usually do that. and i try to think of him as a person prior to a hockey captain before i judge his "lack of passion". it may be entirely speculation, but he is a father, and i don't think he wants to be seen as a guy that flies off the handle at his team when they are losing (i.e. ovechkin after his fight, as we saw on HBO). it's just not a very respectable way to act (and please spare me the "but this is hockey, it's bloody and violent and angry" argument, because i'm sure that effective captains are respected ones). but that doesn't mean he's not giving them what for in the locker rooms, and it doesn't mean he's not saying anything on the bench.
DB HAS been getting involved in the scrums after the play much much more recently. and let's not forget that a lot of us are currently not happy with the fact that all doughty does is freak out and complain and whine, and are hoping that he grows up. well, maybe DB represents what it means to be "grown up." he gets involved in the scrums, but doesn't go bat-**** insane every time a call doesn't go his way. i have faith that he's doing stuff on the bench and in the locker room that we don't know about.

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03-08-2011, 02:14 PM
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Funny....I actually made this a couple years ago

i may steal that for my avatar. cool?

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03-08-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
Nieuwendyk MVP, Hatcher Captain, Hull GWG.
... Who led the Stars in goals and assists and plus-minus during that regular season? Who led them in scoring during the playoffs? Which forward had the most ice time in the season and in the playoffs?

Count just the points scored on goals in the third period or overtime that either tied the game, gave Dallas the lead, or gave Dallas a two-goal lead (empty-netters excluded) in the '99 playoffs and what do you have?

Modano: 3 goals, 7 assists, 10 points
Nieuwendyk: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points
Langenbrunner: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points
Lehtinen: 5 goals, 1 assist, 6 points

I can't believe a Stars fan who saw that season would even dispute who was their MVP. That's a bit shocking to me.

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03-08-2011, 02:45 PM
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His consistency is the only thing that really bugs me.

5G 6A in the last 31 games, really makes you wonder how good he could be if he stayed hot all season.

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03-08-2011, 03:36 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
How on earth do you know any of that?
What do you mean how do I know that? The past 2 years, Brown has increased his diving, refuses to get involved with players . . whether its a facewash, a push, a cross check in the post-whistle activities, takes runs at players but refuses to fight when he's challenged . . those are all aspects of a emotional/psychological game that he hasn't been apart of until recently.

Also, those actions should be standard procedure for a Captain. Hell, even Sidney Crosby fights


EDIT: Can we get something clear here, I love the way Brown has played in the last few weeks . . . I'm not writing this up to complain about his current play . . was just a statement on my complaints about him in the past

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03-08-2011, 04:00 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Ask Mark Messier about who influenced him the most about being a captain and a leader and he will tell you it was Wayne Gretzky.

Hardly fits in with your description of the ideal captain, doesn't it?
Link me up on this one. That is quite a statement to make when in his own words Messier says that his greatest influence was Gordie Howe.

And so does 99 and that is also well documented.

Hardly supports what your implying, does it?

So show me a link, quote or whatever else besides your opinion to back this one up and then I will do the same. Other than that its just opinion, isn't it?

Here is one of several quotes on the subject right out of Messier's mouth

"My favorite player of all time? There's two Gordie Howe and Wayne Gretzky. Gordie because that is who I tried to model myself after as Captain and Wayne because he was the greatestt player of all time, he just never gave up. Wayne was the greatest player of all time hands down.

Here's a quote from Mess where he talks about what he thinks the responsibilities are for being a captain.

"As a captain, I think it`s important that the players really know who you are and what you stand for, what your beliefs are, and to be consistent in those if things are going good or things are going bad.

There are tons of them but I chose this one because it supports what I have written regarding my beliefs of what a captain should be as well.

By the way, I haven't said that DB is a bad captain just not my perfect choice.


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03-08-2011, 04:22 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killermiller View Post
His consistency is the only thing that really bugs me.

5G 6A in the last 31 games, really makes you wonder how good he could be if he stayed hot all season.
He doesn't have the hands to be a consistent scorer. Somebody said before that his shot trajectory is exactly the same each shot and I agree with that. He shoots right in the crest of the goalie-no matter where he is on the ice the puck will travel along that line almost every time. Maybe he should switch curves to be able to pick more corners? Maybe he sticks with that curve and shot so he doesn't miss the net, a very basic approach of getting the puck on net which is lost on a few other Kings. Dustin Brown should thank his lucky stars he doesn't play in Canada or another major NHL market because he would be getting shredded in the papers and on TV-CONSISTENTLY.

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03-08-2011, 04:41 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
He doesn't have the hands to be a consistent scorer. Somebody said before that his shot trajectory is exactly the same each shot and I agree with that. He shoots right in the crest of the goalie-no matter where he is on the ice the puck will travel along that line almost every time. Maybe he should switch curves to be able to pick more corners? Maybe he sticks with that curve and shot so he doesn't miss the net, a very basic approach of getting the puck on net which is lost on a few other Kings. Dustin Brown should thank his lucky stars he doesn't play in Canada or another major NHL market because he would be getting shredded in the papers and on TV-CONSISTENTLY.
I'm thinking it has something to do with confidence. During his hot streaks he gets into the right shooting lanes, actually drives to the net for rebounds and such. Lately he's been doing the same old "attempt" at getting the puck through the defenders skates and being either stripped or pushed off the puck. He kinda seems lost to where he should be when he doesn't have possession.

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03-08-2011, 05:50 PM
  #45
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So show me a link, quote or whatever else besides your opinion to back this one up and then I will do the same. Other than that its just opinion, isn't it?
"His genuineness really kind of rubbed off on the team, and he became a leader because of the way he treated people. He was so much more mature as a hockey player and as a person than we were at the same age."

... In this video, about 7 1/2 minutes in, Messier says that about Gretzky.

You have to remember that when Messier came up to the NHL, he was the kind of player who needed guidance and direction. Sure, he may have idolized Gordie Howe (and which player from that era didn't) but he shared a locker room and a friendship with Gretzky. It's no contest who would have the bigger impact on his evolution as a player and a leader, is it?

Messier was a different type of leader because he was a different type of person - loud, physical, intimidating. But there's no question in my mind that the biggest influence in Mark's ability to one day be a leader of an NHL team was Gretzky.

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03-08-2011, 06:09 PM
  #46
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I hope Brown will show up the rest of the season so you can get your chuckle and I can be happy that our Kings are doing well.
Don't get me wrong. I don't hate Brown. I just don't think he is a captain material. Being a captain is more than just hitting or scoring. You need to be more involved mentally and vocally. You have to and know when to step in or step up. Brown seems to timid as a captain.
I understand Kopitar, Doughty and some other players have had some issues as well. But the topic here is "Can Brown Really Lead This Team to the Stanley Cup?"
My answer is no. You can sugar coat or show me all the stats but the bottom line is he doesn't posses the talent nor the Mental Domination as a captain should be.


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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Since February began.

Top producers on team.

Kopitar: 4g 12A 16 pts +4

Williams 2g 8a 10pts -4

Drew 6g 8a 14 pts -4

Brown 4g 3a 7pts +2 50 Hits most in the NHL for February.

If Brown is playing poorly you should be about ready to lynch the rest of the team about now.

Still in the top producers on the team since February began.

Anymore?

You really need to look at some stats before you toss Brown under the bus.

I am going to have a small chuckle when Brown explodes again (Cause he will, Streaky player). And all of you are on his jock again .

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03-08-2011, 06:42 PM
  #47
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That's not what you said, is it?

You said "Ask Mark Messier about who influenced him the most about being a captain and a leader and he will tell you it was Wayne Gretzky".

You then said "Hardly fits in with your description of the ideal captain, doesn't it?".

Your response was clearly made to target my opinion of what makes a great captain and in that response you claimed it was Gretzky who was Messier's greatest influence in an effort to claim that my opinion of what makes someone a great captain was somehow wrong. Messier's own words contradict your allegation so your initial response wasn't actually entirely right, was it?

So your response is either not very well thought out or simply wrong, either way it hasn't anything to do with my opinion of Messier as being one of my favorite captains of all time.

Messier says that he modeled himself as a captain after Howe and that he feels that 99 is the greatest player of all time so again, your initial response to my original posting simply isn't supported at all by your response but that's alright.

Had you asked me if I thought that Gretzky was a major influence on his friend Messier I would have laughed and said clearly, of course and told you that it was a silly question.

But that wasn't what you said or what we were talking about. You implied that my opinion of what it takes to be an exceptional captain was flawed because Messier would say that it was Gretzky who was his greatest influence on how to be a captain and that wasn't the case.

I would also say that Gretzky was an exceptional leader who left everything on the ice and lead by example so even in that I disagree with your response. Messier was more of a throwback like I said but it doesn't mean that I don't think that 99 was also an exceptional leader. The two aren't close to being mutually exclusive.

Messier said that it was Howe who he modeled himself after as a captain and not 99 so to answer your initial question my answer again is no, it doesn't have anything to do with my position because what you are saying simply isn't the case.


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