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Old
03-08-2011, 12:36 PM
  #26
JT Dutch*
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
1. The 1975 Fliers had one of the worst power plays of all time but won the cup.
... Huh???

In 74-75, the Flyers were 5th in the league on the PP (out of 18 teams) with a 24.9 PP%.

In 73-74, the Flyers were 3rd in the league (out of 16 teams) with a 22.3 PP%.

THAT's one of the worst power plays of all time???

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03-08-2011, 12:44 PM
  #27
Ollie Weeks
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Our penalty killing has improved, our goaltending has improved, and our faceoff percentage has remained slightly above average. All of these are fantastic. Our ES goal differential is also better, even though we're technically scoring fewer goals per game, demonstrating how improved our overall defense actually is.

It all falls on the PP, which has drastically fallen off since last year. If we were scoring at the clip we did last year, we would have scored 7 or 8 more PPG to date. With those 7 or 8 extra goals, everything changes. Doughty's production returns to normal, and Kopitar and Johnson's skyrockets. More importantly, of course, is that these goals potentially secure us 2 or 3 wins we really could have used, Vancouver and Dallas being the perfect examples. In a race this tight, it's a critical shortcoming. It can't be stressed how necessary it is for our anemic PP to be this team's #1 priority during practice.

Our system is frustrating to watch, I agree, but its arguably quite effective 5v5 and 4v5. What's hindering us is the Kings simply aren't receiving sufficient 5v4 support that would elevate our goal totals to where we'd like them to be.

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03-08-2011, 12:56 PM
  #28
Josh Deitell
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Getting upset at this team for not having a high-powered offense is like yelling at your dog for not being a cat.

Going back to January 22, this team is on a 12-3-4 run. I don't think there's a coach in the world that could get better results with this team over that span, and that's with a stagnant power play, which realistically has nowhere to go but up.

I mentioned it in the PGT but our power play has been better this year than Philadelphia's and Washington's, who are also top PK teams. There's more than one way to win hockey games.

I'll take the team that grinds out wins over the post-LAPD era Kings who had to score 4+ a night every night for a chance to win.

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03-08-2011, 01:11 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
So, you believe that Murray is getting the most out of the Kings players? This is as good as they get?
No, I'm not saying that at all. But I do think TM's shortcomings are exaggerated, and the criticism of his system inaccurate.

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03-08-2011, 01:18 PM
  #30
Josh Deitell
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
No, I'm not saying that at all. But I do think TM's shortcomings are exaggerated, and the criticism of his system inaccurate.
I agree with you. I think the discrepancies between "systems" don't have as drastic of an effect on players as often gets implied. People said Minnesota's trap system suffocated Gaborik's ability and yet his 42 goals from last year with the Rangers match his total from 2007-08 with the Wild.

A lot of player issues get chalked up as systematic problems, when at the end of the day, maybe they're just not playing that well.

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03-08-2011, 01:20 PM
  #31
Andrew Knoll
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
How is it not true? Were they not scouted last year?



http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...wName=goalsFor

And as of right now, statistically speaking, they're better than they were last year.



There's the problem. The Kings aren't an elite team. Is Doughty playing at an elite level? Is Kopitar? If Murray is all about shoot first, someone should let Kopitar know. Would whatever is wrong with Doughty this season be fixed by some incredible offensive system?

The system would look much better if the Kings could connect on a pass or two. If players can't do that, it doesn't matter what system they play. If the players didn't turn the puck over, in their own zone, at the blue line, at the red line, consistently, the system would look much better. Blame the coaches for who is or isn't on the ice at a given time. But the players have plenty to figure out, since they're not executing on the ice the way they need to in order to be an elite team.
All good points but the Kings still need work at even strength, too. They've gotten a little deeper (mainly a healthy Williams) up front and had some big-scoring stretches early to carry them but they still lack consistency there.

Kopitar is more comfortable on the half wall than down in the slot but Forsberg he ain't (who is?), time to shoot the puck more coming off the wall and certainly he's got to be the trigger man in the umbrella. More positional shifts would be good, start out with a 2-3 and move into the umbrella on the fly rather than only when the puck is recovered off a failed sequence perhaps.

Doughty, he's doing OK, none of those guys can shake loose on the blue line. The pinnacle of Drew and Jack's success on the PP was probably the first four games of the Vancouver series last year and since then teams have vowed to not get beat from up high against the Kings. They run a man right at Drew and shade him with a forward most of the time, get him to move the puck quickly. Force the puck out of his hands before he can work in lower or walk the blue line to create an opening seems to be the conventional wisdom and it's working.

You hit the nail on the end, a great power play is filled with great PASSERS. Next year with Schenn I'd be curious to see how it would work out with Schenn at center and Kopi as a wing, turn Kopi loose and let Schenn be the trigger man off the half wall. He's got the passing ability, it just might be too much to ask from a guy adjusting to the speed and reads of the NHL for essentially the first time.

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03-08-2011, 01:25 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Coaching. Look no further than the coaching. Take out the free shootout points ( you can thank quick), and this team is a .500 team at best. The offense relies on lucky bounces period.
this. TM is a vagina

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03-08-2011, 01:34 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad View Post
1. Name the last Stanley Cup winning team with a poor and inconsistent power play and 5 on 3.
Currently LA has 16.8% power play that is ranked 19th in the NHL. Here are the last 6 Stanley Cup winners with their regular season PP% and rankings:

2010 Chicago 17.7% (16th)
2009 Pittsburgh 17.2% (20th)
2008 Detroit 20.7% (3rd)
2007 Anaheim 22.4% (3rd)
2006 Carolina 17.9% (17th)
2004 Tampa 16.2% (16th)

4 of the last 6 Stanley Cup champions were ranked in the bottom-half of the league in terms of power play. But to answer your question: Tampa in 2004.

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03-08-2011, 01:39 PM
  #34
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Perhaps those teams, with their unique makeups, systems and mentalities, can function with a powerplay in the bottom half of the league, but I think its safe to say that we can't.

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03-08-2011, 01:48 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Slippery Moses View Post
Perhaps those teams, with their unique makeups, systems and mentalities, can function with a powerplay in the bottom half of the league, but I think its safe to say that we can't.
... Please elaborate on this. It's "safe to say" that because ...?

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03-08-2011, 01:50 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad View Post
1. Name the last Stanley Cup winning team with a poor and inconsistent power play and 5 on 3.

2. Name a post lockout Stanley Cup winning team that relied on a cycle along the boards – to the point as its offensive system.

3. Are Anze Kopitar, Justin Williams, Dustin Brown, Jarret Stoll, Drew Doughty and Jack Johnson excellent skaters? If yes, is speed really lacking in our top 6 forwards or top 4 defense or does our system stifle speed?

4. Are Anze Kopitar, Dustin Penner, Justin Williams, Jarret Stoll, Dustin Brown and Ryan Smyth a top 6 line on 25 out of 30 NHL teams out there? If yes, are the problems really with the forwards’ skill level or does the system suppress offensive skill?

5. Are Drew Doughty, Jack Johnson, Willie Mitchell and Rob Scuderi a top 4 defensive group on 25 out of 30 NHL teams? If yes, are the problems really with the defensive core?

6. Is Jonathan Quick a legitimate number 1 goalie on 25 out of 30 NHL teams? If so, is the problem goaltending?

Last question…

7. When the LA Kings’ players do what the coaches ask and the offense and powerplay still consistently fail, is it execution by the players or the system to which they must adhere the problem?

Just questions. You decide.
1. If it has happened, it happened prior to "Todays NHL." You absolutely have to have at LEAST a decent power play.

2. I don't believe that "cycling the puck" is a problem at all with us. Every team in the NHL "cycles." Its a part of everybodys system, but perhaps with us it is a main point. That doesn't mean it is a problem.

3. I think yes, they are all good skaters. Good skaters doesn't just mean speed. Mattias Norstrom was a GREAT skater; he did not have to be a fast one. Our team simply isn't built on speed, but as far as the guys you named in Stoll, Kopi, Willy, Drew, and Jack, I would say that their speed is definitely good enough.

4. Yes, they absolutely are and while the system may stifle their offensive abilities, we are not built to be an offensive team. We aren't going to light up the scoreboard and I'm sure that every player in that locker room knows that and has bought into Terry Murrays defense first system. This team is designed to win 2-1, 3-2 hockey games and I firmly believe that we are also designed for the playoffs.

5. Simply put, yes. There are no problems with the defensive core. I still think Voynov/Hickey/Muzzin are better players than Alec Martinez, but thats a small detail that might be irrelevant.

6. Yes, but he is sketching me out lately much like he did last year. But yes.

7. We aren't bad at all even strength. The problem lies solely with the power play. The power play is such a crucial part of the system, and its really hurting us right now. We earn our power plays with that exact offensive system when we are cycling, and wearing down the opposing teams defense. We're supposed to stick to them by burying on the power play, but instead all the momentum we gain by cycling and maintaining possession goes for not because our power play is just so awful at the moment.

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03-08-2011, 01:58 PM
  #37
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somehow strange........... i'm flamed since 3 years for asking these questions.
Now it seems like a serious topic.

- Stoll, Smyth have no buisness on a top 6 spot.

- Richardson is a playmaking center not a 4th line grinder.

- You can't score goals from the boards.

- Same for behind the goal

- A PP doesn't work when the shooters are forced to the boards and shoot from there.

- PP need a plan and movement.

- Offense needs a game plan and trained moves.

- Defense needs mobility and a strong position play. JUst park 5 guys in front of the goal isn't a defense system it just leads to staying defenders who are easy to pass around.


There are so many other things who jump into my eye............... but it's not my buisness to judge that anymore.
Most of the people here seem happy with our "improvement" and just point to the fact that we have improvement doesn't matter how slow or decreasing it is.

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03-08-2011, 02:38 PM
  #38
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Very credible questions, analytical instead of overly emotional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad View Post
1. Name the last Stanley Cup winning team with a poor and inconsistent power play and 5 on 3.
Chicago, 2009/2010. Only 29th best PP at home, 4th best on the road --> definitely inconsistent. Overall they had only 0.9% better PP than Kings have now.

Quote:
2. Name a post lockout Stanley Cup winning team that relied on a cycle along the boards – to the point as its offensive system.
I don't know enough to give a good answer.

Quote:
3. Are Anze Kopitar, Justin Williams, Dustin Brown, Jarret Stoll, Drew Doughty and Jack Johnson excellent skaters? If yes, is speed really lacking in our top 6 forwards or top 4 defense or does our system stifle speed?
Apart from Stoll and Brown, the rest are above average. I would their ability just slightly under excellency.

Kings don't have top speed, however usually more size means less speed. When Anaheim won the Cup, everyone said it's because of their size. Kings were one of the smallest teams and now Kings are one of the biggest teams in the league. You can't have everything, but speed IMO is not a problem.

Quote:
4. Are Anze Kopitar, Dustin Penner, Justin Williams, Jarret Stoll, Dustin Brown and Ryan Smyth a top 6 line on 25 out of 30 NHL teams out there? If yes, are the problems really with the forwards’ skill level or does the system suppress offensive skill?
25/30 yes. On top 10 teams Stoll and Smyth IMO don't make it.

I have doubts about how efficient Kings offensive system is, but the players are good enough to run any offensive system.

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5. Are Drew Doughty, Jack Johnson, Willie Mitchell and Rob Scuderi a top 4 defensive group on 25 out of 30 NHL teams? If yes, are the problems really with the defensive core?
Yes. No problem.

Quote:
6. Is Jonathan Quick a legitimate number 1 goalie on 25 out of 30 NHL teams? If so, is the problem goaltending?
Yes. No problem.

Quote:
7. When the LA Kings’ players do what the coaches ask and the offense and powerplay still consistently fail, is it execution by the players or the system to which they must adhere the problem?
Knowing what needs to be done is not enough. I will give a simple example. Coaches know that Kings need to win. So they say : "You need to win."

The coaches would be perfectly correct and if team doesn't win, can the players be blamed, that they were told to win and they didn't?

I doubt that players are given good enough instructions, even if they sound good in theory.

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03-08-2011, 05:16 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Please elaborate on this. It's "safe to say" that because ...?
We're a good team in our own way, but a cut below others. We can hang with the best, no question, but not without everything firing on all cylinders.

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03-08-2011, 06:43 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
somehow strange........... i'm flamed since 3 years for asking these questions.
Now it seems like a serious topic.

- Stoll, Smyth have no buisness on a top 6 spot.

- Richardson is a playmaking center not a 4th line grinder.

- You can't score goals from the boards.

- Same for behind the goal

- A PP doesn't work when the shooters are forced to the boards and shoot from there.

- PP need a plan and movement.

- Offense needs a game plan and trained moves.

- Defense needs mobility and a strong position play. JUst park 5 guys in front of the goal isn't a defense system it just leads to staying defenders who are easy to pass around.


There are so many other things who jump into my eye............... but it's not my buisness to judge that anymore.
Most of the people here seem happy with our "improvement" and just point to the fact that we have improvement doesn't matter how slow or decreasing it is.
I agree with a lot of this but a lot of the game today is played behind the net, in fact in talking to older players (hell not even THAT old in some cases) you hear that all the time, so much of the game now is behind the net. It's where you go with the puck from there that matters.

Also I think that's an unfair evaluation of Smyth, his skating is a liability much less often than his hands and smarts are assets. He's been very good for the Kings this year overall.

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03-08-2011, 07:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Getting upset at this team for not having a high-powered offense is like yelling at your dog for not being a cat.

Going back to January 22, this team is on a 12-3-4 run. I don't think there's a coach in the world that could get better results with this team over that span, and that's with a stagnant power play, which realistically has nowhere to go but up.

I mentioned it in the PGT but our power play has been better this year than Philadelphia's and Washington's, who are also top PK teams. There's more than one way to win hockey games.

I'll take the team that grinds out wins over the post-LAPD era Kings who had to score 4+ a night every night for a chance to win.
Winning 12 games out of 19 is not really that impressive.

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03-08-2011, 07:22 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
...I doubt that players are given good enough instructions, even if they sound good in theory.
This is a very interesting point. Please elaborate on this, if possible.
And welcome...

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03-08-2011, 07:25 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
Winning 12 games out of 19 is not really that impressive.
Not impressed? Isn't that like a 60% winning percentage?

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03-08-2011, 07:46 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
Winning 12 games out of 19 is not really that impressive.
74% of the possible points (28/38) isn't impressive?

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03-08-2011, 08:37 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
This is a very interesting point. Please elaborate on this, if possible.
And welcome...
Thanks. Hard to elaborate on that, because I meant it in a more general way. I don't know what kind of instructions they get in the locker room. It's just thoughts that I sometimes get during the games. I can't explain some of the bad sides of the Kings performance either, so I am looking for explanations anywhere I can find them.

I believe anyone can recognize Chicago and Kings power play without any numbers and without teams being revealed. Chicago because it's fast and they utilize each player's strengths. And Kings because the puck is with Kopitar for so long and he is not in a dangerous position often. However I don't blame the players for that because it is OBVIOUS that they are playing system decided by someone else. Kopitar also doesn't just decide to switch the sides, he has instructions to do so. Kings PP looks very robotic to me, players just follow some book and try too hard to execute the ideas from coaching staff. If they would take PP in their own hands and just improvise, I believe it would be much better. On the other hand PP was better last season and Kompon was in charge of it. The only explanation I have is, that teams have studied Kings PP well and Kompon as a career video coach doesn't have enough imagination to create something new. Career video coaches are usually better at studying the opponent and adapting to THEM and I haven't seen any good team adapting their PP to the opponent on a regular basis. Kings PP is not below average, however I believe that Kings have a top 5 PP team talent and that PP instructions are not good.

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