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Old
03-08-2011, 01:35 PM
  #1
Sovereign
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Canada's Health Care System

I have the...unfortunate luck to be friends with a pair of hard core right wingers from the States and they have the notion that our system is socialist and thus, evil. Their views have been irritating me as of late and one friend starting saying we have "death panels" up here. Don't ask me where she got that idea from because I have no clue.

So I gotta ask this: What are some truly negative aspects about our system? And would rather have ours or the American system?

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03-08-2011, 01:38 PM
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There's off topic, and then there's off topic.

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruled By Secrecy View Post
I have the...unfortunate luck to be friends with a pair of hard core right wingers from the States and they have the notion that our system is socialist and thus, evil. Their views have been irritating me as of late and one friend starting saying we have "death panels" up here. Don't ask me where she got that idea from because I have no clue.

So I gotta ask this: What are some truly negative aspects about our system? And would rather have ours or the American system?
Out of curiousity, how old are these friends?

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:42 PM
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you have to wait in line for some procedures that in the US, there is little wait as long as you or your insurance has the money.

that's the negative.


the positive is that two patients with the same problem both get the same treatment, rather than one being told they cant afford it so you will die instead.

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03-08-2011, 01:44 PM
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Alpostrophe
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In America, those without health insurance are left without treatment or with debilitating bills to pay for treatment. In Canada everyone just has to wait months or years to get treatment. Both systems are failing. If you can afford insurance you are going to get infinitely better care in the U.S. than here in Canada. If pathetic care for all is better than go socialized medicine. If discriminatory superior care is better than go private medicine. I think house pets have access to better care than most people in Canada. I'm not particularly conservative, Big 'C' or small, but I am a libertarian and saying that I would prefer more options in Canada. If the wealthy could buy private care that would open public hospital beds and speed up the less burdened public system. Take that lefties.

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:46 PM
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Waiting lines for procedures, not enough family doctors.

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpostrophe View Post
In America, those without health insurance are left without treatment or with debilitating bills to pay for treatment. In Canada everyone just has to wait months or years to get treatment. Both systems are failing. If you can afford insurance you are going to get infinitely better care in the U.S. than here in Canada. If pathetic care for all is better than go socialized medicine. If discriminatory superior care is better than go private medicine. I think house pets have access to better care than most people in Canada. I'm not particularly conservative, Big 'C' or small, but I am a libertarian and saying that I would prefer more options in Canada. If the wealthy could buy private care that would open public hospital beds and speed up the less burdened public system. Take that lefties.
The wealthy have that option now, they just have to go to the US.

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:48 PM
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Death panels?

Tell your friends that there are people in the American health insurance industry whose job is to deny people health care for errors on their applications that have no bearing on their condition requiring treatment. And they only look for these errors when a claimant starts to need expensive health care.

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:51 PM
  #9
Sovereign
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigleaf View Post
Out of curiousity, how old are these friends?
One is 25 and a Mormon (lol) and one is 35.


My buddy and I are trying to talk some sense into her, but at this point it's like talking to a brick wall.


"Overall yours is less efficient and less innovative. Otherwise your I
VIPs wouldn't come to the USA for their health care."

"Well, first of all, let me preface my response. America's healthcare system
is not completely capitalistic. Although I believe it should be, that is not
the current state of things. Nobody can be denied treatment. We have many
social programs like Medicare and Medicaid that provide healthcare and prescriptions. On the state and federal level. However, capitalism is about
the individual. Even though individualism has been warped into a bad word, individualism is good. Individuals, acting in their own self interest,
promote the good of society. That is the concept that Adam Smith, the
renowned Scottish economist, taught us. The same applies to the industry of healthcare. No, I don't want my family members to die because they don't
have access to basic healthcare and prescriptions. But you know what? My
family members wouldn't. They wouldn't, because our entire family would
ensure that their health care expenses are obtained and paid for. Now, of
course you'll say, "Then you must hate poor people, because their families
can't afford it either." That isn't true, I don't hate poor people. I
believe that the family is the first line of defense and the most important
form of government. The second most important is charity. Millions of
dollars are donated every year to charities. Local organizations, funded by charitable dollars, should be the next stop for welfare, including
healthcare. Now, if the government took less of my money to inefficiently
manage healthcare (among almost every other federal program), I'd have more
to give to people! And so would everyone else."

"Well, first of all, let me preface my response. America's healthcare system
is not completely capitalistic. Although I believe it should be, that is not
the current state of things. Nobody can be denied treatment. We have many
social programs like Medicare and Medicaid that provide healthcare and prescriptions. On the state and federal level. However, capitalism is about
the individual. Even though individualism has been warped into a bad word, individualism is good. Individuals, acting in their own self interest,
promote the good of society. That is the concept that Adam Smith, the
renowned Scottish economist, taught us. The same applies to the industry of healthcare. No, I don't want my family members to die because they don't
have access to basic healthcare and prescriptions. But you know what? My
family members wouldn't. They wouldn't, because our entire family would
ensure that their health care expenses are obtained and paid for. Now, of
course you'll say, "Then you must hate poor people, because their families
can't afford it either." That isn't true, I don't hate poor people. I
believe that the family is the first line of defense and the most important
form of government. The second most important is charity. Millions of
dollars are donated every year to charities. Local organizations, funded by charitable dollars, should be the next stop for welfare, including
healthcare. Now, if the government took less of my money to inefficiently
manage healthcare (among almost every other federal program), I'd have more
to give to people! And so would everyone else."

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:51 PM
  #10
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A negative is that the way it's set up, the majority of our top doctors will go to the states to get way more money. The quality of care in the states is also better.

The problem is, you have to pay more for it through insurance or what not.

But this all makes sense. I mean, who would have thought that you have to pay more to get better service.

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:51 PM
  #11
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Yeah, I'm a conservative and death panels are more of a US Health Insurance thing. Insurance companies can deny claims on the basis that potentially life saving treatments are experimental in nature among other things.

The best system is a combination of private and public, I think we arrived at that 5-10 years ago so this debate is dead in my opinion.

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:56 PM
  #12
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The American health care system costs more per person then Canada's does, and a massive part of their popualtion doesn't get coverage - so that's a starting point to debunct the myth Aemricans aren;t paying for crae (and this is per head and not the final $$$ obviously).

And it bleeds into racism and class division. Basically, rich white people get care, urban poor and immigrant communities don't.

Health Care in the U.S. is also one of the major expenses for Corporations (they buy the insurance) and after the massive manufacturing move from the north east United States that created the rust belt (see Detroit) - Canada did a study to see why it happened in the U.S. and not in Canada. The Corporations cited escaping major health care expenses in the U.S. as a reason to move and the Canadian health care system (Government funded) and how it doesn;t have to pay for care in Canada as a major reason for staying - basically paying for health care cut into profits in the U.S. - this also leads into other arguments like healthy productive workers and motivation (canada has the most productive workers in the world) and Unionization arguments but that is the fundamental reason, they left because they got sick of paying the health care bill, and they will move again wehn it gets to expensive - The book on this is called "Industrial Sunset"

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:56 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
The wealthy have that option now, they just have to go to the US.
I want them to be able to get a check up and bring their kids with scraped knees in. Nobody is going to leave the country for that. I want to keep people out of the public hospitals entirely. The mundane family physician visits and unnecessary emergency room visits bog down hospitals (by volume) more than MRI waiting lists and such. There are some private options which exist in Quebec for scanning tests and such. Provincial law is civil in Quebec which has allowed for this difference. I applaud them.

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:58 PM
  #14
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And really the only death panel in the U.S. is the Defense Ministry and JCOS who "apologize" for murdering 11 scholl chidren - that is a real panel of death...but let's stick to thee issues

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Old
03-08-2011, 01:59 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
And really the only death panel in the U.S. is the Defense Ministry and JCOS who "apologize" for murdering 11 scholl chidren - that is a real panel of death...but let's stick to thee issues
I smell an anarchist.

Smells like burnt toast.

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:00 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruled By Secrecy View Post
I have the...unfortunate luck to be friends with a pair of hard core right wingers from the States and they have the notion that our system is socialist and thus, evil. Their views have been irritating me as of late and one friend starting saying we have "death panels" up here. Don't ask me where she got that idea from because I have no clue.

So I gotta ask this: What are some truly negative aspects about our system? And would rather have ours or the American system?
Ask them what they think of their Social Security System & whether they think that is a socialist program or not? Or Medi-care which is similar to our system. Both systems have good points & bad points, I had some blood work done the other day & I had to pay $30 for one of the tests that OHIP doesn't cover. This happens from time to time where OHIP doesn't quite cover "everything" but it's still better than not having coverage at all. Whether you buy Insurance from an Insurance company for your health care as most Americans do or you have it deducted from your pay cheque as most Canadians do to me isn't a huge difference. From what I understand American hospitals have shorter wait periods because fewer people have Health coverage or extensive health coverage & Canadian hospitals have longer wait lists because so many have health coverage. OHIP doesn't cover everything & we have wait lists that can be up to several months long for some non-life-threatening surgeries.

Personally, I would like to see more Private Clinics in Canada that do specialized work such as knee replacements, hip repacements etc.. things that are repetitive & not too complicated. This IMO would cut down on wait times for major operations, OHIP could continue to pay the cost & the individual would pay anything extra that the clinic would charge for. The patient would know up front what OHOP covers & what he would have to pay. Those who could afford it could go to the private clinic & those who couldn't would go to the hospital which should have shorter wait times with more people going to private clinics. I would pay a private clinic extra for a knee replacement next week rather than wait 6 to 8 months but not everyone can afford to do that.

P.S. - we do not have death panels in Canada, OMG I can't believe that they would believe Sara Palin. They really should visit Canada to see what a wonderful friendly place it is & watch a lot less Fox TV.

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aragorn View Post

Personally, I would like to see more Private Clinics in Canada that do specialized work such as knee replacements, hip repacements etc.. things that are repetitive & not too complicated. This IMO would cut down on wait times for major operations, OHIP could continue to pay the cost & the individual would pay anything extra that the clinic would charge for. The patient would know up front what OHOP covers & what he would have to pay. Those who could afford it could go to the private clinic & those who couldn't would go to the hospital which should have shorter wait times with more people going to private clinics. I would pay a private clinic extra for a knee replacement next week rather than wait 6 to 8 months but not everyone can afford to do that.
Exactly the kind of augmentation I am getting at. Very good points.

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03-08-2011, 02:09 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Blind Faith View Post
I smell an anarchist.

Smells like burnt toast.
burnt toast!! - that's a sign of Alzheimers, better call your doctor because it might take a while to get an appointment

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:10 PM
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Let's settle this debate tonight with a hockey game between an American and a Canadian team.

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:12 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruled By Secrecy View Post
I have the...unfortunate luck to be friends with a pair of hard core right wingers from the States and they have the notion that our system is socialist and thus, evil?
Ask them what they call a 1 trillion dollar Government bail out?? If that is not socialism - government sponsoring private business - then they can go get their guns and shoot me dead...

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:16 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
Let's settle this debate tonight with a hockey game between an American and a Canadian team.
Winner gets health coverage & loser has to sew their own stitches!

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:17 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpostrophe View Post
In America, those without health insurance are left without treatment or with debilitating bills to pay for treatment. In Canada everyone just has to wait months or years to get treatment. Both systems are failing. If you can afford insurance you are going to get infinitely better care in the U.S. than here in Canada. If pathetic care for all is better than go socialized medicine. If discriminatory superior care is better than go private medicine. I think house pets have access to better care than most people in Canada. I'm not particularly conservative, Big 'C' or small, but I am a libertarian and saying that I would prefer more options in Canada. If the wealthy could buy private care that would open public hospital beds and speed up the less burdened public system. Take that lefties.
You proposition would be all well and good if we assumed that the quality of service delivered by the public system would remain the same after the introduction of private system, but that would simply not be the case.

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:22 PM
  #23
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The wait times for optional procedures is probably the big thing. Getting a family doctor can be fairly difficult.

Another problem is living next to America and speaking the same language - our doctors can leave quite a bit easier than say - Japanese, German, Swiss, etc... doctors.

I don't really care either way the American and Canadian systems both have flaws.

I think there's room for some private practice in Canada - an expanded role from what we have now.

I think it's unfortunate that we have a political environment where everybody is afraid to talk about this...

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:24 PM
  #24
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They pay more money to push the poor people out of line at the hospital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
Death panels?

Tell your friends that there are people in the American health insurance industry whose job is to deny people health care for errors on their applications that have no bearing on their condition requiring treatment. And they only look for these errors when a claimant starts to need expensive health care.
Exactly. Insurance companies are the only death panels in either of our countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Faith View Post
Yeah, I'm a conservative and death panels are more of a US Health Insurance thing. Insurance companies can deny claims on the basis that potentially life saving treatments are experimental in nature among other things.
Yeah, or your insurance company is sketchy and it turns out that you're not covered for cancer treatments after all. Bear attacks on Thursday mornings, yep... but not cancer. All that matters is what is in the contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
The American health care system costs more per person then Canada's does, and a massive part of their popualtion doesn't get coverage - so that's a starting point to debunct the myth Aemricans aren;t paying for crae (and this is per head and not the final $$$ obviously).

And it bleeds into racism and class division. Basically, rich white people get care, urban poor and immigrant communities don't.

Health Care in the U.S. is also one of the major expenses for Corporations (they buy the insurance) and after the massive manufacturing move from the north east United States that created the rust belt (see Detroit) - Canada did a study to see why it happened in the U.S. and not in Canada. The Corporations cited escaping major health care expenses in the U.S. as a reason to move and the Canadian health care system (Government funded) and how it doesn;t have to pay for care in Canada as a major reason for staying - basically paying for health care cut into profits in the U.S. - this also leads into other arguments like healthy productive workers and motivation (canada has the most productive workers in the world) and Unionization arguments but that is the fundamental reason, they left because they got sick of paying the health care bill, and they will move again wehn it gets to expensive - The book on this is called "Industrial Sunset"
This is good.
Also, dig up the google US vs. Canada healthcare systems page. Read it and follow the links to newspaper websites etc. IIRC, when you start putting the dollar figures together --> they pay as much as we do for our universal healthcare through taxes/per capita for their limited healthcare programs like Medicare and Medicaid. Is that clear? ... They pay just as much as we do through taxation for healthcare, but get a fraction of the service and most are forced to buy private insurance.

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:58 PM
  #25
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Just some recent personal experience, I was sent for an MRI in January by an ortho surgeon for my shoulder. Nothing too severe, certainly nothing life threatening by any means. I had to wait 2 weeks. Granted, it was at 2:30 am, but two weeks wait for non-urgent MRI. I could live with this, considering my visits to my GP, referral to the specialist and MRI are paid through OHIP.

More importantly, OHIP will not try to kick me off because I am costing them too much money.

Why Americans have so much faith in unadulterated capitalism after all the Enrons, Wall St. meltdown, insurance rip offs after disasters like Katrina, corporations outsourcing off all their jobs while profits and CEO renumeration sore, is beyond me.

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