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John Tortorella Discussion (Update: Torts extended 3 years)

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Old
03-08-2011, 02:01 PM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
to try and say that our #6 d-man is the reason we didn't win 5 more games is what's hilarious.
Did I say that? All I did was say that anyone who thinks 10 points isn't significant is pretty crazy.

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03-08-2011, 03:16 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't see firing Torts to be any real solution to this team's problems. That said, this team is playing exactly the same kind of hockey they did the first season after the lockout.
That is flat out not true. The first season after the lockout we were loaded with veterans with very few young players, and Jagr carrying us on his back with a monster season. The moment he went down the team imploded.

This team is MUCH younger with a clearly defined identity and direction -- a grinding, in-your-face group of workaholics that relies on teamwork and balanced scoring to win games.

Just because their point totals are similar doesn't mean they're playing exactly the same kind of hockey. Do you really not see that??

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03-08-2011, 03:23 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
That is flat out not true. The first season after the lockout we were loaded with veterans with very few young players, and Jagr carrying us on his back with a monster season. The moment he went down the team imploded.

This team is MUCH younger with a clearly defined identity and direction -- a grinding, in-your-face group of workaholics that relies on teamwork and balanced scoring to win games.

Just because their point totals are similar doesn't mean they're playing exactly the same kind of hockey. Do you really not see that??
Loaded with veterans? The team rode Jagr and Lundqvist but they played hard, night in and night out.

I'm not talking about point totals. And I'm not comparing the two teams. I'm comparing the style of play.

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03-08-2011, 03:35 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Loaded with veterans? The team rode Jagr and Lundqvist but they played hard, night in and night out.

I'm not talking about point totals.
Jagr, Straka, Rucchin, Rucinsky, Nylander, Sykora, Roszival, Malik, Poti, Strudwick, Kaspar, Ozolinsh -- you don't call that loaded with veterans? Our only top 6 player under 30 was Prucha.

Lundqvist only played 53 games, so you can't claim they rode him. That team was being carried by the best player in the world at the time and a supporting crew of his compatriots.

How can you even begin to compare the two teams is beyond me. And yes, comparing style of play = comparing the two teams, at least one aspect of what a team is. Moreover, even with style of play you're way off. The 2005-06 Rangers were a East-West team that catered to the Czechs' main strength -- puck possession, cycling, passing, sniping. The 2010-11 Rangers are a grinding, South-North team whose bread and butter are forechecking and garbage goals.

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03-08-2011, 03:43 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Jagr, Straka, Rucchin, Rucinsky, Nylander, Sykora, Roszival, Malik, Poti, Strudwick, Kaspar, Ozolinsh -- you don't call that loaded with veterans? Our only top 6 player under 30 was Prucha.

Lundqvist only played 53 games, so you can't claim they rode him. That team was being carried by the best player in the world at the time and a supporting crew of his compatriots.

How can you even begin to compare the two teams is beyond me. And yes, comparing style of play = comparing the two teams, at least one aspect of what a team is. Moreover, even with style of play you're way off. The 2005-06 Rangers were a East-West team that catered to the Czechs' main strength -- puck possession, cycling, passing, sniping. The 2010-11 Rangers are a grinding, South-North team whose bread and butter are forechecking and garbage goals.
It was said the team is "playing a style of hockey that we haven't seen them play in a long time in NY." You want to harp on personnel. I see a similar team in that they aren't going to win without outworking the opposing team on a nightly basis.

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03-08-2011, 03:49 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
It was said the team is "playing a style of hockey that we haven't seen them play in a long time in NY." You want to harp on personnel. I see a similar team in that they aren't going to win without outworking the opposing team on a nightly basis.
Which is flat out not true. The 2005-06 team won games not because they outworked the opposing team on a nightly basis, it was because the best player in the world was taking full advantage of the post-lockout rule changes on a nightly basis.

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03-08-2011, 03:51 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Jagr, Straka, Rucchin, Rucinsky, Nylander, Sykora, Roszival, Malik, Poti, Strudwick, Kaspar, Ozolinsh -- you don't call that loaded with veterans? Our only top 6 player under 30 was Prucha.

Lundqvist only played 53 games, so you can't claim they rode him. That team was being carried by the best player in the world at the time and a supporting crew of his compatriots.

How can you even begin to compare the two teams is beyond me. And yes, comparing style of play = comparing the two teams, at least one aspect of what a team is. Moreover, even with style of play you're way off. The 2005-06 Rangers were a East-West team that catered to the Czechs' main strength -- puck possession, cycling, passing, sniping. The 2010-11 Rangers are a grinding, South-North team whose bread and butter are forechecking and garbage goals.
I dont see anywhere where he compared the 2 teams, other than saying they both play hard.

but if I were to compare the 2005-2006 team to the 2010-2011 squad, Im inclined to say the 05-06 team would beat this current team head to head more often that not.

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03-08-2011, 03:52 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Which is flat out not true. The 2005-06 team won games not because they outworked the opposing team on a nightly basis, it was because the best player in the world was taking full advantage of the post-lockout rule changes on a nightly basis.
Our bottom 6 was pitiful and our D was mediocre. we had

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Rucinsky-Rucchin-Sykora
Prucha-Betts-Ward
Hollweg-Moore-Ortmeyer
Orr

Malik-Rozsival
Tyutin-Kasparitus
Ozolinch-Poti
Strudwick

I say thats a lineup that needs hard work to get the 100 points that we got. Outside of a first line and a goaltender we were a below average team.

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Old
03-08-2011, 04:04 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
You contradict yourself. If coaching is minor thing (to which I disagree in general, but may agree in particular) then Torts departure is not so important compare to Sather's one. Sather stepping down could be a huge difference. Tortotella's - not so much. In Sullivan we could see the continuation of the same (plus will have a man able to finish sentence at press conferences).
No. The last paragraph is my personal feelings.

The main part of my post is that the Rangers have begun to form a philosophy as a team that is defensively responsible (similar to the Devils) but is able to take average offensive talent and win games by keeping it close. The difference between the Rangers and the Devils is high end talent.

Parise, Kovalchuk, Elias vs Gaborik.

Clearly the Rangers believe that Tortorella is the best man to execute this philosophy. I do not believe they expected Renney to be this guy -- merely someone who could help bring the kids along early (and Renney should get a lot of credit for that - being involved in player development) -- but with Tortorella they are inching closer to realizing the clubs philosophy -- they are some offensive talent away from realizing it.

They won't fire Tortorella unless they feel he shows he is incapable of taking a complete roster and competing (this is not one). Next year will be the first year the Rangers truly judge John imo.

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03-08-2011, 04:07 PM
  #285
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I agree, fire Tortorella so that the rangers have a slimmer chance to grab Richards...

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Old
03-08-2011, 04:17 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Our bottom 6 was pitiful and our D was mediocre. we had

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Rucinsky-Rucchin-Sykora
Prucha-Betts-Ward
Hollweg-Moore-Ortmeyer
Orr

Malik-Rozsival
Tyutin-Kasparitus
Ozolinch-Poti
Strudwick

I say thats a lineup that needs hard work to get the 100 points that we got. Outside of a first line and a goaltender we were a below average team.

Didn't Jagr have 120-something points that season?

That Rangers team won a lot of games because of how dominating that line was. Also remember that the PK was top 3 in the league (IIRC) and Prucha had a monster season. All of course because of those new rules.

That team was offensively gifted, but was not built for the playoffs.

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Old
03-08-2011, 04:23 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Our bottom 6 was pitiful and our D was mediocre. we had

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Rucinsky-Rucchin-Sykora
Prucha-Betts-Ward
Hollweg-Moore-Ortmeyer
Orr

Malik-Rozsival
Tyutin-Kasparitus
Ozolinch-Poti
Strudwick

I say thats a lineup that needs hard work to get the 100 points that we got. Outside of a first line and a goaltender we were a below average team.

Bolded statements like that really make me LOL. That's like saying outside of Kane, Toews, Keith and Hossa the Blackhawks are a below average team.

Jagr at 123 pts, Nylander and Straka are PPG players, Lundqvist is a Vezina finalist, and you discount them as though they're some redundant, inconsequential element of the team?

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03-08-2011, 10:07 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Bolded statements like that really make me LOL. That's like saying outside of Kane, Toews, Keith and Hossa the Blackhawks are a below average team.

Jagr at 123 pts, Nylander and Straka are PPG players, Lundqvist is a Vezina finalist, and you discount them as though they're some redundant, inconsequential element of the team?
Really? Talk about looking for something to be appalled by. He clearly meant those guys were the whole team, with everything below them being mostly inconsequential.

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Old
03-08-2011, 11:26 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
Really? Talk about looking for something to be appalled by. He clearly meant those guys were the whole team, with everything below them being mostly inconsequential.
How is that different from saying the Blackhawks are a below average team without Kane, Toews, Keith and Hossa? Yeah, of course that team was below average without 3 of their best forwards (2 of them PPG players and one Hart finalist) and their Vezina finalist goalie. Remove 4 of any good team's best players and you're left with something below average. How is that even an argument?

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03-09-2011, 09:20 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
They won't fire Tortorella unless they feel he shows he is incapable of taking a complete roster and competing (this is not one). Next year will be the first year the Rangers truly judge John imo.
I've never insisted they will fire Torts. All I was saying was he should be fired because he failed short term. You came back saying he is valuable long term. That is not so. Torts is a short term fellow that was supposed to get us over the hump, something Renney was not able to accomplish. Now, when he failed there, the excuse is let him be around for this young group longer. I don't mind that, but that was not the original plan Torts must still be held accountable for. Plus Torts is not known for any long term success. It is a risky proposition to give him such opportunity.

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03-09-2011, 09:30 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Our bottom 6 was pitiful and our D was mediocre. we had

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Rucinsky-Rucchin-Sykora
Prucha-Betts-Ward
Hollweg-Moore-Ortmeyer
Orr

Malik-Rozsival
Tyutin-Kasparitus
Ozolinch-Poti
Strudwick

I say thats a lineup that needs hard work to get the 100 points that we got. Outside of a first line and a goaltender we were a below average team.
That is very accurate. We had a bunch of plumbers then and now (although our bottom 6 are better now than then). First line cannot play more than 1/3 of time. That is the reason both teams play similar style of hockey. Shadow is wrong for a change... . Jagr and his Czechs effected the end result of the season only. The style of play is similar.

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03-09-2011, 11:09 AM
  #292
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Firing Torts is the worst Idea one could think of. The only reason we're even in a playoff contention is because of Coach Tortorella. This team will end up with over 300 man games lost to injury, it's leading scorer, its second leading scorer, its captain, and its assistant captain from last year have all missed the majority of the season yet they've maintained a playoff standing all season and the coach should be fired? That's lunacy and demonstrates a complete out of touch of what's going on from year to year.

For those who expect a high level of excellence and domination every night, night after night just doesn't understand a young team. Sure we dominated a poorly performing Philly team, but no matter how Philly was performing, this Team still needed to execute and they did, excellently. They smelled blood and they went for the kill and they didn't let up. Next game they may play completely oppositely and may play completely terribly. But that's what a young team does. They play inconsistently. Consistency is the difference between a veteran and a young team.

I understand this is NY and we're not used to the development of a team. We're not used to the slow process of drafting, juniors, college, or European play, then maybe playing in the WJC signing their first pro contract. We hear about them a little bit a year later they're playing in the minors. Years later we see them on the Rangers for a couple games. Its years later before they're a regular and even years later before they're a real impact player and a leader. We jump all over slumping sophmores screaming, "Trade him, Trade him now" rather than staying the course. Do we really want to make the same mistakes that were made in the past? Ulf Samuelson was a very good defenseman but he was no where near the level that Sergie Zubov produced for Dallas over the years. Trading picks doesn't make much sense either. Pavel Bure was nice to have but wouldn't it be nicer to have Alexander Semin right now? Truth is NY's lack of patience and rush to put a wining team on the ice has always lead it to squander it's youth in favor of proven veterans. In 2004 after a long and painful playoff drought that philosophy finally changed.

TO BE CONTINUED...


Last edited by vipernsx: 03-09-2011 at 11:31 AM.
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03-09-2011, 11:28 AM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94now View Post
That is very accurate. We had a bunch of plumbers then and now (although our bottom 6 are better now than then). First line cannot play more than 1/3 of time. That is the reason both teams play similar style of hockey. Shadow is wrong for a change... . Jagr and his Czechs effected the end result of the season only. The style of play is similar.
Sorry, but that makes no sense.

1. Quality of talent is NOT the same as style of play. You can argue that less talented teams are forced to play a more grinding game, but the two have nothing in common otherwise.

2. It boggles my mind how you can call the 2005-06 team a bunch of plumbers when the 1st line combined for about 300 points.

3. Are you saying they were similar because neither team was elite? Well, you can say the same about 90% of NHL teams EVERY SEASON, so that's not an argument either.

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Old
03-09-2011, 11:30 AM
  #294
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...CONTINUED

In 2004 all overpaid-under-performing veterans were purged. Including Brian Leetch, who some people have hated Sather for and never forgiven him, no matter what he does. This was done for the good of the organization to restock the coffers with youth and picks.

At the same time the organization made the decision to acquire a scorn superstar playing poorly and build around him. Friends from his native Country would be his teammate to try to make him happy and the gamble worked. The team became a winner.

However Rebuilding the farm, wasn't going so well. The prospects acquired weren't panning out. Rachunek, Umberger, Balej, Immonen, Kondratiev, etc weren't turning out to work out with the Rangers organization and Rangers draft picks in 02, 03, and 04, were struggling to turn out as well. The guys in charge of prospect developing and drafter were Don Maloney and Tom Renney. Due to the Rangers being unable to develop internal candidates they had no other choice but to rely on UFA where you pay high prices. In the Rangers cases, exorbitantly high prices.

So over the years Glen Sather works closely with his Coach Tom Renney and fills his needs by signing UFAs to inflated contracts like Scott Gomes, Wade Redden, and Chris Drury.

Eventually Don Maloney moves off to Phoenix(2007) Tom Renney becomes Coach(2005) and Jim Schoenfeld and Gordie Clark become prominent figures in the prospect development and drafting. When Shoeny and Clark take over the Ranger organization begins producing its own players and no longer relies on free agents as its primary source. Nor does it rely on other teams as its source of talent.

The Rangers now regularly draft quality players and Schoenfeld capably develops them in CT. The Rangers have a quality farm system stocked with solid prospects. They take time to develop. Sather is now in a position where he can use UFAs to augment his staff rather than fill gaping needs like he needed to before.

Torts is a quality coach and we need to let this team finish progressing it's development cycle. We're almost there.

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03-09-2011, 11:38 AM
  #295
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...CONTINUED

In 2004 all overpaid-under-performing veterans were purged. Including Brian Leetch, who some people have hated Sather for and never forgiven him, no matter what he does. This was done for the good of the organization to restock the coffers with youth and picks.

At the same time the organization made the decision to acquire a scorn superstar playing poorly and build around him. Friends from his native Country would be his teammate to try to make him happy and the gamble worked. The team became a winner.

However Rebuilding the farm, wasn't going so well. The prospects acquired weren't panning out. Rachunek, Umberger, Balej, Immonen, Kondratiev, etc weren't turning out to work out with the Rangers organization and Rangers draft picks in 02, 03, and 04, were struggling to turn out as well. The guys in charge of prospect developing and drafter were Don Maloney and Tom Renney. Due to the Rangers being unable to develop internal candidates they had no other choice but to rely on UFA where you pay high prices. In the Rangers cases, exorbitantly high prices.

So over the years Glen Sather works closely with his Coach Tom Renney and fills his needs by signing UFAs to inflated contracts like Scott Gomes, Wade Redden, and Chris Drury.

Eventually Don Maloney moves off to Phoenix(2007) Tom Renney becomes Coach(2005) and Jim Schoenfeld and Gordie Clark become prominent figures in the prospect development and drafting. When Shoeny and Clark take over the Ranger organization begins producing its own players and no longer relies on free agents as its primary source. Nor does it rely on other teams as its source of talent.

The Rangers now regularly draft quality players and Schoenfeld capably develops them in CT. The Rangers have a quality farm system stocked with solid prospects. They take time to develop. Sather is now in a position where he can use UFAs to augment his staff rather than fill gaping needs like he needed to before.

Torts is a quality coach and we need to let this team finish progressing it's development cycle. We're almost there.

A voice of reason, where did you come from?!

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03-09-2011, 11:39 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Loaded with veterans? The team rode Jagr and Lundqvist but they played hard, night in and night out.

I'm not talking about point totals. And I'm not comparing the two teams. I'm comparing the style of play.
"Blue collar" and "hard working" are the terms that announcers that don't work for MSG use to describe the Rangers, especially guys that work for TSN. Other things that they say with those words is "haven't seen in a really long time". And just to be clear, those aren't my opinions.

You can be pro-Renney all you want, but the truth is the truth, this is a hard working team and damn hard work and come from behind wins is what kept them in a 6th place playoff spot during those injuries with a ton of Hartford call-ups.

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03-09-2011, 11:40 AM
  #297
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A voice of reason, where did you come from?!
Well lemme tell you about this story about this birdie and this bee.

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03-09-2011, 11:44 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Firing Torts is the worst Idea one could think of. The only reason we're even in a playoff contention is because of Coach Tortorella. This team will end up with over 300 man games lost to injury, it's leading scorer, its second leading scorer, its captain, and its assistant captain from last year have all missed the majority of the season yet they've maintained a playoff standing all season and the coach should be fired? That's lunacy and demonstrates a complete out of touch of what's going on from year to year.

For those who expect a high level of excellence and domination every night, night after night just doesn't understand a young team. Sure we dominated a poorly performing Philly team, but no matter how Philly was performing, this Team still needed to execute and they did, excellently. They smelled blood and they went for the kill and they didn't let up. Next game they may play completely oppositely and may play completely terribly. But that's what a young team does. They play inconsistently. Consistency is the difference between a veteran and a young team.

I understand this is NY and we're not used to the development of a team. We're not used to the slow process of drafting, juniors, college, or European play, then maybe playing in the WJC signing their first pro contract. We hear about them a little bit a year later they're playing in the minors. Years later we see them on the Rangers for a couple games. Its years later before they're a regular and even years later before they're a real impact player and a leader. We jump all over slumping sophmores screaming, "Trade him, Trade him now" rather than staying the course. Do we really want to make the same mistakes that were made in the past? Ulf Samuelson was a very good defenseman but he was no where near the level that Sergie Zubov produced for Dallas over the years. Trading picks doesn't make much sense either. Pavel Bure was nice to have but wouldn't it be nicer to have Alexander Semin right now? Truth is NY's lack of patience and rush to put a wining team on the ice has always lead it to squander it's youth in favor of proven veterans. In 2004 after a long and painful playoff drought that philosophy finally changed.

TO BE CONTINUED...
Viper that was well said. Only thing you got wrong about this was that the Panthers selected Petr Taticek with the first rounder we sent them.... haha had to correct you. Great post though and i share the same thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowrunner View Post
Sorry, but that makes no sense.

1. Quality of talent is NOT the same as style of play. You can argue that less talented teams are forced to play a more grinding game, but the two have nothing in common otherwise.

2. It boggles my mind how you can call the 2005-06 team a bunch of plumbers when the 1st line combined for about 300 points.

3. Are you saying they were similar because neither team was elite? Well, you can say the same about 90% of NHL teams EVERY SEASON, so that's not an argument either.
You dont get what he means by the plumbers comment. He's not talking about the first line. We had an Awesome first line, in which 2 of the 3 played above what they've ever done before. The REST of the lineup were filled with a bunch of guys who were role players. Most of those guys were bottom line players for a reason. They are by definition "plumbers". You keep ignoring the rest of the team with every reply you make. The only other guys on that roster who were 2nd line players were Rucinsky (even though he was slowing down), Sykora (older vet picked up mid-season) and Prucha (fell off his horse after his knee went before the olympic break). the rest of the team was filled with hard working 4th liners. Dom Moore became more of a 3rd liner later in his career.

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03-09-2011, 11:57 AM
  #299
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
"Blue collar" and "hard working" are the terms that announcers that don't work for MSG use to describe the Rangers, especially guys that work for TSN. Other things that they say with those words is "haven't seen in a really long time". And just to be clear, those aren't my opinions.

You can be pro-Renney all you want, but the truth is the truth, this is a hard working team and damn hard work and come from behind wins is what kept them in a 6th place playoff spot during those injuries with a ton of Hartford call-ups.
I can't believe that what I thought was a fairly innocuous comment has been so controversial.

It has nothing to do with being pro-Renney. The comment has nothing to do with the coaches at all.

Both teams played a hard working style. That's all I was saying. Anybody who wants to jump all over that comment, feel free.

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03-09-2011, 12:00 PM
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vipernsx
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Originally Posted by Hockey2000nyr View Post
Viper that was well said. Only thing you got wrong about this was that the Panthers selected Petr Taticek with the first rounder we sent them.... haha had to correct you. Great post though and i share the same thoughts
The Rangers traded their first round pick to Florida. Florida Then traded the pick to Calgary who used it to draft Eric Nystrom at the #10 slot.

I figure there's no way the Rangers would have drafter the son of Bobby Nystrom former Islander and Semin was drafted at #13, so who knows.

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2002

http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=698&hubname=nhl

I think the #9 pick was their own pick.

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