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Old
03-08-2011, 07:59 AM
  #51
Legionnaire11
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
May want to ask Columbus, Atlanta, Florida, Minnesota, NYI, STL, etc about that. And any team with a bottom 5 forward group.
Since the lockout (remember how all the rule changes were going to benefit the preds?), all but Florida have also made the playoffs and flamed in the first round, Minnesota has even won their division.

Faltering down the stretch and going out in the first round every season is not a great coaching job. This is as good as it gets with Trotz, he's been useful in the past (or was that a hinderance?), but he cannot motivate his team to the next level when it matters. And Poile's record of mediocrity is three times as long.

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03-08-2011, 08:14 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
People are reading WAY too deep into those comments. He's just trying to light a fire under him. Trotz isn't bad mouthing Wilson or anything. Just trying to get something going. Remember when he called out Erat, Legwand, and Hornqvist? Didn't they ALL score the next game?
Big difference is that all three were still getting top 6 and PP minutes. Wilson has been getting less and less minutes.

Part of the problem with all of this is that Trotz is so insistent that guys take care of all the details in the game that he forgets to cultivate any of their offensive game. I'm not saying any of our forward talent is Ovechkin like but at the same time, other teams draft forwards and develop their talents. We draft defensemen and develop them great. With Korn we have great goalies. With Trotz, we don't develop forwards and don't have a PP. Funny how there's a similarity in that. The man does not know offense. The man does not know how to coach to win but rather to just get by. It's the same story year in and year out.

And to Dulz about coaches, you bring up bottom 5 teams with no talent but what about Phoenix who is eerily similar to us. Gretzky couldn't do a thing with that roster and they bring in Tippett and they've totally changed their outlook. Trotz does a lot with what he's given but a lot doesn't always get it done. I'm over the argument of no one else can do a better job than him with what he's given. Tampa sucked last year with basically the same roster yet they're near the top of the Eastern Conference. Like I said Phoenix has become a pain in the rear for most teams. It can happen if Poile or the owners would make the move. It could also back fire but at least we'd have an answer. This up and down crap we call Preds hockey gets old.

If you're going to talk about going with the kids, then play the freaking kids. If you want more production out of them, they have to be on the ice to do it. Same thing could be said for Dumont, they've complained about his production but give him little ice time and bottom 6 talent to work with. Name me a few players outside of guys like Crosby and top talents that can perform with nobodies and produce on a nightly basis. I think it's a giant **** pull at the end of the day and all this calling out in the press is Trotz in a panic. In years past he wouldn't call out guys like this on a regular basis. Every so often sure but not this many times in a few day span. It's a guy holding on for his job if you ask me.

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Old
03-08-2011, 08:30 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
The man does not know offense. The man does not know how to coach to win but rather to just get by. It's the same story year in and year out.
This too, last week before the Dallas game they were talking to Trotz and he was talking about how important it was that they keep every game close, don't do anything to lose in the final minutes and secure the 1 point for OT... that's his strategy, and it really stinks.


On the Wilson front, I don't remember if it was Wilson himself or someone else talking a week or two ago about how he was still adjusting to the longer NHL season and had to figure out how to push through that wall and down the stretch. Could be a factor, and would fit in with his change in play and Trotz's comments.

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03-08-2011, 08:38 AM
  #54
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Look out Bam Bam your next. Trotz has banished Dumont to the netherlands of riding pine. Then he found a new whipping boy in Wilson. Once he succeeds in taming him Bam will be on the radar. He'll either suck the life out of any offensive game and just not play them. Then he'll say were not seeing any production from them. The move Trotz always makes in desperation is he'll put Tootoo on a scoring line

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03-08-2011, 08:39 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
This too, last week before the Dallas game they were talking to Trotz and he was talking about how important it was that they keep every game close, don't do anything to lose in the final minutes and secure the 1 point for OT... that's his strategy, and it really stinks.


On the Wilson front, I don't remember if it was Wilson himself or someone else talking a week or two ago about how he was still adjusting to the longer NHL season and had to figure out how to push through that wall and down the stretch. Could be a factor, and would fit in with his change in play and Trotz's comments.
So where are the coaches, developmental staff and training staff? Sure he's got to figure some of this out but that's why they have mentors, coaches and all these guys on a staff, to get them thru a long season. And honestly, he played a full season between Milwaukee and Nashville last year so he should've been prepared for it this year.

And I agree if that's our coaches philosophy it stinks. Sure, keep games close. But if you're in a dog fight 82 games a year, you're gonna be burnt out by the time you hit the playoffs.

The other thing we don't do is play playoff hockey until the playoffs. While that may seem like an odd statement, we don't play the body enough and aren't used to that style of a game when it hits. You can't go from a hard forechecking and skating team to a team that finishes checks come the playoffs. It changes the system as guys are getting tied up and allowing more open ice. A team like Anaheim just loaded up on grit. They're going to be a beast to play against if Hiller can come back. They're big, mean and have some top end talent.

Oh well, I'll be up late tonight watching the debacle we call the roller coaster.

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03-08-2011, 09:11 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
This too, last week before the Dallas game they were talking to Trotz and he was talking about how important it was that they keep every game close, don't do anything to lose in the final minutes and secure the 1 point for OT... that's his strategy, and it really stinks.
I was listening to that. The question Tom asked Trotz though called for that answer. It was something like, "coming down the stretch, how important is it to pick up points every game? Do you change your strategy late in games at all?"

Trotz said that you do not change your strategy and you keep playing your game, but...[what's paraphrased above].

FWIW, Wilson has been playing extremely selfish hockey for over a month. He's not a dynamic talent. He needs to use his teammates at this level to reach his potential. Until he matures and realizes that, he'll go through long stretches of inconsistency...

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03-08-2011, 09:43 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
FWIW, Wilson has been playing extremely selfish hockey for over a month. He's not a dynamic talent. He needs to use his teammates at this level to reach his potential. Until he matures and realizes that, he'll go through long stretches of inconsistency...
Do you think it has to do with hitting a wall in a long season? Instead of battling and taking advantage of his physical game, he is doing more coasting and trying to be fancy because he is worn down?

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03-08-2011, 09:57 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I think this makes me have enough too. From the wrap from Trotz:

Its time where we need Colin Wilson who has two points in 11 games. He has to step up here, Trotz said. To me, hes taken a step back here in his last couple of games, because its not about his ability, its about his mindset and hes taken a step back. He has to step forward,
to me, that is trotz telling wilson to get his head in the game. attention to detail. I have no problem with trotz saying it. (other than it being in the media, to which I assume wilson hasn't had it sink in from video or practice) wilson ahs been awful the last month. look at the game winner the other night. legwand working his butt off for the puck in our zone vs 2 guys, wilson standing, watching, flat footed waiting for the game to come to him rather than him taking the game. I am not so much questioning his heart, desire, effort, etc, but his attention to the little things trotz demands. I don't care who he plays with, but until he plays a better two way game he will have limited minutes and be protected by defensivley responsible guys like ward and smithson. trotz is 100% right with what he is saying.

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03-08-2011, 10:12 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
This too, last week before the Dallas game they were talking to Trotz and he was talking about how important it was that they keep every game close, don't do anything to lose in the final minutes and secure the 1 point for OT... that's his strategy, and it really stinks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLake View Post
I was listening to that. The question Tom asked Trotz though called for that answer. It was something like, "coming down the stretch, how important is it to pick up points every game? Do you change your strategy late in games at all?"

Trotz said that you do not change your strategy and you keep playing your game, but...[what's paraphrased above].
Well I didn't hear that particular interview, but if there is some thought that this was simply coach speak in response to the question, this isn't the first time Trotz has said something like this.

I was watching one of the opposition broadcasts in January (can't remember which one), but the announcers were talking about how many one goal games the Preds play and how comfortable they are in those situations. The one guy says they have to be good in those situations because they have trouble scoring and the other guy says something like "yeah, Barry was saying this morning how they play to get that guaranteed one point because they like their chances in the SO". The first guys says something like "I guess so, because they sure aren't trying to score and get the win now." Chuckle, chuckle goes the broadcast crew as Trotz was running grinder after grinder out there trying not to lose, dump and chase, dump and chase.

It stuck with me because we had discussed earlier this season at some length whether Trotz tries to win late or not lose. As I was listening to this, I was thinking, how ridiculously obvious must it be taht these idiots can see that the Preds play well outside the norm of just trying to protect the lead and are actually committed to not winning late?

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03-08-2011, 10:15 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
to me, that is trotz telling wilson to get his head in the game. attention to detail. I have no problem with trotz saying it. (other than it being in the media, to which I assume wilson hasn't had it sink in from video or practice) wilson ahs been awful the last month. look at the game winner the other night. legwand working his butt off for the puck in our zone vs 2 guys, wilson standing, watching, flat footed waiting for the game to come to him rather than him taking the game. I am not so much questioning his heart, desire, effort, etc, but his attention to the little things trotz demands. I don't care who he plays with, but until he plays a better two way game he will have limited minutes and be protected by defensivley responsible guys like ward and smithson. trotz is 100% right with what he is saying.
Is it ok to say that about Wilson but because Fisher and SK may be paying to detail but not scoring they don't get any sort of public lashing? I'm just asking.

While playing a solid two way game is important, you have also have to have guys be able to create offensively. While his play may have taken a nose dive as of late, I think you have to get him out there regardless. We're not winning games because we're not putting the puck in the net. If one guy is going to make that much of a difference defensively we have some bigger fish to fry. There have also been plenty of guys in the NHL who weren't the best two way players but still contributed.

I just think it's Trotz breaking down another young player and we're going to end up with a 40 point a year a guy as opposed to a guy that's going to put up 60-70 points a year. Is the same thing going to happen with Beck when he's here next year or the year after? I sure hope not but Trotz does not develop good offensive players.

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03-08-2011, 10:17 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Preds Partisan View Post
Well I didn't hear that particular interview, but if there is some thought that this was simply coach speak in response to the question, this isn't the first time Trotz has said something like this.

I was watching one of the opposition broadcasts in January (can't remember which one), but the announcers were talking about how many one goal games the Preds play and how comfortable they are in those situations. The one guy says they have to be good in those situations because they have trouble scoring and the other guy says something like "yeah, Barry was saying this morning how they play to get that guaranteed one point because they like their chances in the SO". The first guys says something like "I guess so, because they sure aren't trying to score and get the win now." Chuckle, chuckle goes the broadcast crew as Trotz was running grinder after grinder out there trying not to lose, dump and chase, dump and chase.

It stuck with me because we had discussed earlier this season at some length whether Trotz tries to win late or not lose. As I was listening to this, I was thinking, how ridiculously obvious must it be taht these idiots can see that the Preds play well outside the norm of just trying to protect the lead and are actually committed to not winning late?
And if this is the case then that explains why we can't win in the playoffs because there's no shootout. We have to learn to win in regulation or in OT, not just wait for a shootout. That say a lot to me, yet again.

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03-08-2011, 10:43 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
to me, that is trotz telling wilson to get his head in the game. attention to detail. I have no problem with trotz saying it. (other than it being in the media, to which I assume wilson hasn't had it sink in from video or practice) wilson ahs been awful the last month. look at the game winner the other night. legwand working his butt off for the puck in our zone vs 2 guys, wilson standing, watching, flat footed waiting for the game to come to him rather than him taking the game. I am not so much questioning his heart, desire, effort, etc, but his attention to the little things trotz demands. I don't care who he plays with, but until he plays a better two way game he will have limited minutes and be protected by defensivley responsible guys like ward and smithson. trotz is 100% right with what he is saying.
Here is the play. Legwand carrying the puck over the blue line, hits 33 with a pass waist high on 33 backhand. 33 takes a hit, wins the battle and plays down to Legwand while 33 stays up high. Legwand loses his battle and the Flames come out with the puck. Still two Preds defensemen to deal with, they score. To say Wilson is at fault there, you are grasping.
Do you know how many times in the offensive zone you lose the puck and the team comes out with a odd man rush.Pres still had 2 D back in position.
Honestly, think of how many times this happens in a game.

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03-08-2011, 11:43 AM
  #63
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Here is the play. Legwand carrying the puck over the blue line, hits 33 with a pass waist high on 33 backhand. 33 takes a hit, wins the battle and plays down to Legwand while 33 stays up high. Legwand loses his battle and the Flames come out with the puck. Still two Preds defensemen to deal with, they score. To say Wilson is at fault there, you are grasping.
Do you know how many times in the offensive zone you lose the puck and the team comes out with a odd man rush.Pres still had 2 D back in position.
Honestly, think of how many times this happens in a game.
That play was definitely not Wilson. Legwand coughed it up. And also, was standing behind our goal when the Flames scored. What the heck was he doing back there? Get a GD stick on a player in front of the net at least.

But yes, Wilson is still raw and that's why he's not getting 20 minutes a night.


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03-08-2011, 11:55 AM
  #64
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elop their talents. We draft defensemen and develop them great. With Korn we have great goalies. With Trotz, we don't develop forwards and don't have a PP. Funny how there's a similarity in that. The man does not know offense.
Funny, in 05-06 when we had some decent talent up front, we were top 10 PP and top 10 in Goals scored.

There is a difference between not knowing and not having offense.

As for the Phoenix example, yes they are overachieving with little talent up front, same as us. Same as we've done the past 5 years.

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03-08-2011, 12:37 PM
  #65
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A lot of people point to the Kariya teams and claim that we were an offensive force... Honestly remembering those seasons, while the Preds were able to score, they were never dominant, they were still very inconsistent and had flaws that meant you could never feel comfortable about their chances. And of course, they still crapped out in the playoffs.

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03-08-2011, 02:07 PM
  #66
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A lot of people point to the Kariya teams and claim that we were an offensive force... Honestly remembering those seasons, while the Preds were able to score, they were never dominant, they were still very inconsistent and had flaws that meant you could never feel comfortable about their chances. And of course, they still crapped out in the playoffs.
No, they weren't an offensive force, but we didn't have offensive force talent. Definitely the most talent Trtoz has ever had to work with, but nothing compared to teams like Pitts, Wash, Philly, etc.

Kariya was coming off a horrible season in Colorado and resurrected his career under Trotz. That year, Dumont, Sullivan and Arnott all had career years-- yes, under the offensive no-nothing Barry Trotz. Radulov put up 26g in a supporting role. And, we had a decent PP, and were near the top of the league goals for.

Kosisyten has grown offensively under Trotz. Hartnell reached his potential.

So, as always, it comes down to sour grapes that Legwand didn't turn into the scorer people were hoping for. He just doesn't have those skills, sorry to break the news. Just like many high draft picks that didn't turn out as expected in NHL, he's one-- but at least Trotz has uses his strengths appropriately and turned him into a decent player.

As for Wilson, I see Trotz handling him similar how he handled Hartnell. Slowing grooming him, yet still giving him opportunities at a young age. I think people have too high expectations for Wilson. He's got some skills, but he's never going to be a top-end offensive player in the NHL. As badly as we need it....

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03-08-2011, 04:14 PM
  #67
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Big difference is that all three were still getting top 6 and PP minutes. Wilson has been getting less and less minutes.
That doesn't matter. He still isn't playing all that great with the limited minutes he's getting. Why should he get more?

Rookies have to earn ice time. Been this way forever with Trotz.

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03-08-2011, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
A lot of people point to the Kariya teams and claim that we were an offensive force...
I gotta disagree. I remember getting Tacos on FIVE (yes 5) goals nearly every game. And when we didn't score 5, it seems like we had enough chances to score 7-8. Now, it seems like we struggle to generate enough offense to score 2 goals. And we've only gotten Frostee's a few times this year on four(4) goal games.

The difference in that playoff series is that the Sharks physically man-handled us (especially down the middle -- center position), not because we didn't have our chances to score. Well, that, and we SUCKED on the road that year.

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03-08-2011, 04:38 PM
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I gotta disagree. I remember getting Tacos on FIVE (yes 5) goals nearly every game. And when we didn't score 5, it seems like we had enough chances to score 7-8. Now, it seems like we struggle to generate enough offense to score 2 goals. And we've only gotten Frostee's a few times this year on four(4) goal games.

The difference in that playoff series is that the Sharks physically man-handled us (especially down the middle -- center position), not because we didn't have our chances to score. Well, that, and we SUCKED on the road that year.
Difference is we're much better defensively than we were that year and we didn't have Vokoun to steal games for us in the playoffs. It's either we're good defensively and suck offensively or we're good offensively and ok defensively. I wish we could be good at both. If we were, Rinne can handle the back end just fine for us.

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03-08-2011, 04:57 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by redwhiteandblue View Post
Here is the play. Legwand carrying the puck over the blue line, hits 33 with a pass waist high on 33 backhand. 33 takes a hit, wins the battle and plays down to Legwand while 33 stays up high. Legwand loses his battle and the Flames come out with the puck. Still two Preds defensemen to deal with, they score. To say Wilson is at fault there, you are grasping.
Do you know how many times in the offensive zone you lose the puck and the team comes out with a odd man rush.Pres still had 2 D back in position.
Honestly, think of how many times this happens in a game.
It was Wilson's lazy reaction that has people up in arms, you have to atleast try and on that play he didn't. He's been lazy on more than a few plays lately and we as a team can't afford that.

Right now, Jordin Tootoo is a better hockey player than Colin Wilson.

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03-08-2011, 05:53 PM
  #71
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It was Wilson's lazy reaction that has people up in arms, you have to atleast try and on that play he didn't. He's been lazy on more than a few plays lately and we as a team can't afford that.

Right now, Jordin Tootoo is a better hockey player than Colin Wilson.
The play for Legwand was to get the puck deep. When he first received the puck, he had no one on him. He could have played it down low, but instead decided to look for a Dman coming in, that is when he got checked. Wilson was ready to jump if the puck went deep, which is the usual Pred offensive play. I am guessing, if it was Wilson, not Lewand that lost the puck on the boards, you would be blaming Legwand not Wilson?
The fact is that on every team in every game, teams lose the puck in the offensive zone for many different reasons that result in goals. To even blame Legwand on this play though is a joke. There were still 2 Dmen back that they had to beat before scoring

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03-08-2011, 08:46 PM
  #72
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The thing that jumps out at me with Kariya and company teams is that except for Rads, Legwand and Erat, neither of whom were that great, all the offensive talent was brought in from somewhere else. Poile does not draft forwards well. It's partly the scouts and partly the playing style. I would have loved to have gotten a 20 goal scorer with the Ellis pick for example. I don't care if he has a slapshot like Shea's, he's small for a dman and will get hammered if he makes it to the NHL.

I think Wilson should play more, how much worse can he be than Ward, really? He may make defensive mistakes but he doesn't have hands of stone either. I would rather live with his mistakes than see Ward wiff on another open net. The coaching staff doesn't trust him and that has undermined his confidence. He doesn't play well because is overthinking afraid to make a mistake. I HATE that rookies have to earn ice time. Pittsburgh, Chicago and now Edmonton have played their young guys a ton. Lived with the mistakes and the losses in hopes of improvement. And they got it. I would not be surprised to see Edmonton be right in the mix next season.


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03-08-2011, 09:08 PM
  #73
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No, they weren't an offensive force, but we didn't have offensive force talent. Definitely the most talent Trtoz has ever had to work with, but nothing compared to teams like Pitts, Wash, Philly, etc.

Kariya was coming off a horrible season in Colorado and resurrected his career under Trotz. That year, Dumont, Sullivan and Arnott all had career years-- yes, under the offensive no-nothing Barry Trotz. Radulov put up 26g in a supporting role. And, we had a decent PP, and were near the top of the league goals for.

Kosisyten has grown offensively under Trotz. Hartnell reached his potential.

So, as always, it comes down to sour grapes that Legwand didn't turn into the scorer people were hoping for. He just doesn't have those skills, sorry to break the news. Just like many high draft picks that didn't turn out as expected in NHL, he's one-- but at least Trotz has uses his strengths appropriately and turned him into a decent player.

As for Wilson, I see Trotz handling him similar how he handled Hartnell. Slowing grooming him, yet still giving him opportunities at a young age. I think people have too high expectations for Wilson. He's got some skills, but he's never going to be a top-end offensive player in the NHL. As badly as we need it....
We overcome despite Trotz...Kariya basically was the leader that year after the lockout not because Trotzy spreading around his offensive philosphy. Radulov was under the same scrutiny that Wilson is under now and he left. Hartnell was better after he was traded in another system. Wilson is really playing in his first complete year. Last year he didn't play a full season. Wilson is a top end talent. Just offer him in a trade and you'll GM's see jumping out of their boots to get him. All the talent that comes here like Sully and Kariya and Arnott and Dumont were better early until Trotz sucks the life out of them. Sk just needed an oportunity to get out Mtl. Wilson has 14 goals and he's played on every line and Erat and Legwand have both 11 goals and they have played on consistent lines for most of the season.

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03-08-2011, 10:02 PM
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dulzhok
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We overcome despite Trotz...Kariya basically was the leader that year after the lockout not because Trotzy spreading around his offensive philosphy. Radulov was under the same scrutiny that Wilson is under now and he left. Hartnell was better after he was traded in another system.
I've never seen so much spin in my life. Sully and Dumont had career years under Trotz yet you say he sucked the offense out of them Hartnell's production in Philly has been about the same as Nashville, despite having MUCH better linemates in Philly. Radulov was given plenty of freedom here. Yes, asked to do other things, but scored 26g in a supporting role. Horny scored 30g in his 2nd year. Arnott and Kariya resurrected their career under Trotz. Kosisyten. etc. etc.

When given offensive talent, Trotz' teams have been more offensive. When not (i.e. this year), he adjusts his system accordingly. Wilson has talent, but he's still very raw... more raw than Radulov (and less skilled).

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03-08-2011, 10:37 PM
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I've never seen so much spin in my life. Sully and Dumont had career years under Trotz yet you say he sucked the offense out of them Hartnell's production in Philly has been about the same as Nashville, despite having MUCH better linemates in Philly. Radulov was given plenty of freedom here. Yes, asked to do other things, but scored 26g in a supporting role. Horny scored 30g in his 2nd year. Arnott and Kariya resurrected their career under Trotz. Kosisyten. etc. etc.

When given offensive talent, Trotz' teams have been more offensive. When not (i.e. this year), he adjusts his system accordingly. Wilson has talent, but he's still very raw... more raw than Radulov (and less skilled).
Dumont averaged 60+ points for his first 4 or 5 years here right? He's got 17 points this year? I'd say that he's sucked the offense out of JP.

Didn't Trotz have double standards for Arnott, Sully and Kariya? Since they were vets they didn't have to play a two way game. How often did PK cherry pick? How often did Sully cherry pick? How much did Arnott not skate hard on every shift, especially on line changes? He never called these guys out because they were vets and he wasn't going to rock the boat like that. Even when Sully came back this year from injury and wasn't producing, he didn't call him out. Fisher has been an offensive disappointment since being here but has been given a pass. Anyone that has been with this team from the get go is not free of his wrath. Legwand has always received criticism. Erat has as well. Hartnell and Rads were given criticism and now Wilson is. The only vet that was brought in that's received criticism is Dumont and if I'm JP I'd be ticked beyond belief. Trotz and Poile have said he doesn't produce enough yet he's either scratched lately or gets limited minutes.

You know, the way he uses players is much like his coaching and what he gets out of his team. He only coaches for about 20 minutes and that's the effort on a nightly basis that he gets from them as well. If you want production, you should be given minutes and linemates that suit your skills. I get tired of the Wilson doesn't do this or that. Guess what, as the coach you're supposed to get the most out of your players. Sure, Wilson should motivate himself as a player but he's young and Trotz has been thru this. Teach them what they need to know and get them on the ice. I just see another high draft pick being wasted on a kid with talent who's being told to be a good two way player and has lost all confidence in his offensive game. Barry, put Wilson in a place to succeed, not a place to fear of his mistakes.

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