HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Ottawa Senators
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Canada's Health Care System

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-08-2011, 11:36 PM
  #51
arglebargle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 1225
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiesIrae View Post
wrote a paper on this in public policy class last year. my thesis was this:

^CMAJ September, 2002
How does denying healthcare to anyone over 65 improve the healthcare system? That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. The elderly are always going to be the biggest users of healthcare. If you take it away from them you might as well not even have a public healthcare system because the vast majority of people aged 15-55 rarely need medical care.

arglebargle is offline  
Old
03-08-2011, 11:43 PM
  #52
Do Make Say Think
Soul & Onward
 
Do Make Say Think's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,491
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiesIrae View Post
wrote a paper on this in public policy class last year. my thesis was this:

61%^ of the people who seek medical treatment in this province are (1) aged persons [beyond age 64], (2) persons who have lifestyle disease, and (3) persons with injuries resulting from negligence. To reduce the burden on Ontarian therapeutic institutions, each must be reasonably addressed with a legislated policy,

(i) If you are over 65 you shouldn't receive medical treatment unless it can be found that you will likely live at least 3 more years (plus 18 months if female),

(ii) Lifestyle disease sufferers should have to pay out of pocket for treatment,

(iii) negligence resulting in medical necessity should be paid out of pocket by the persons liable.

^CMAJ September, 2002
Holy crap, good thing we don't do things your way!!

Do Make Say Think is offline  
Old
03-08-2011, 11:46 PM
  #53
obsenssive*
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Alfredstown
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,740
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to obsenssive*
can you guys read? it specifically says "unless it can be found that you will likely live at least 3 more years (plus 18 months if female)" and then I forgot to add: "if not found so, they should pay out of pocket".

annually in ontario BILLIONS of dollars are spent on procedures which the CMA deems "short-term therapeutic treatment". money and time and expertise is wasted when someone gets a hip replacement and then dies 16 months later from a known and present heart condition.

such idiotic treatment shouldn't be given by the taxpayers. Pay for it yourself if you want to have such a surgery. End-of-life treatment is ridiculous waste.

obsenssive* is offline  
Old
03-08-2011, 11:49 PM
  #54
obsenssive*
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Alfredstown
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,740
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to obsenssive*
Quote:
Originally Posted by arglebargle View Post
How does denying healthcare to anyone over 65 improve the healthcare system? That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. The elderly are always going to be the biggest users of healthcare. If you take it away from them you might as well not even have a public healthcare system because the vast majority of people aged 15-55 rarely need medical care.
theres a difference between elderly, and likely to die within 3/4.5 years.

obsenssive* is offline  
Old
03-08-2011, 11:52 PM
  #55
Proust
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiesIrae View Post
can you guys read? it specifically says "unless it can be found that you will likely live at least 3 more years (plus 18 months if female)" and then I forgot to add: "if not found so, they should pay out of pocket".

annually in ontario BILLIONS of dollars are spent on procedures which the CMA deems "short-term therapeutic treatment". money and time and expertise is wasted when someone gets a hip replacement and then dies 16 months later from a known and present heart condition.

such idiotic treatment shouldn't be given by the taxpayers. Pay for it yourself if you want to have such a surgery. End-of-life treatment is ridiculous waste.
You sound like a post-grad student. One day you will look back on your "novel and brilliant views" and laugh, like we are now.

Canadians are Canadians and are entitled to their rights until the day they die. And putting that much stock into a doctor's life projection is naive.

Proust is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 12:00 AM
  #56
Nedved
Registered User
 
Nedved's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,756
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proust View Post
You sound like a post-grad student. One day you will look back on your "novel and brilliant views" and laugh, like we are now.

Canadians are Canadians and are entitled to their rights until the day they die. And putting that much stock into a doctor's life projection is naive.
just offended hf grad students.

Nedved is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 05:21 AM
  #57
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,044
vCash: 500
DiesIrae
Wow so anyone over 65 should pay for there own medical care really?

wjhl2009fan is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 05:29 AM
  #58
senatoilers*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 415
vCash: 500
why do women get +18 months? wtf is a lifestyle disease? Are STDs lifestyle diseases for having a promiscuous lifestyle? How do you get the "people that are liable" to pay? So if some homeless guy negligently hits me with his shopping cart and breaks my leg i have to wait for him to pony up to get my leg fixed?

That must have been a truly horribly paper.

senatoilers* is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:29 AM
  #59
Herc Man
AmandaHugincis
 
Herc Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nepean
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,794
vCash: 500
I love this whole Us vs Them mentality when it comes to heath care. I have had this debate many times with Americans on my many travels; usually brought up by the American.

What it all boils down to is the Canadian heath care system is a non-profit system, whilst the US system is for generating profit for share holders. Plain and simple. Most people I talked to in the US either really, really want our health care or they absolutely hate that socialist system.

I wonder which ones have stocks in the health care industry.

On a side note, try and take away my "socialist" health care and I take up arms to keep it; thats how strongly I believe in our system.

Eat your heart out Sarah! Oh, wait, you are rich and own a large portfolio....

Herc Man is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:29 AM
  #60
Tuna99
Registered User
 
Tuna99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,263
vCash: 50
The truth is like it or not that somehting crazy like 75% of health care costs goes to people over the gae of 75 and in their last 6 months of life, and by 2025 the rise in heath care costs, the Provinces will be spending close to 100% of their provinacial budgets on health care.

Things like people over the age of 65 can't get knee replacement surgery might sound evil, but it is coming because we can't afford the costs - no choice

The good news - they can always go to the States and pay to get a new knee

Tuna99 is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:35 AM
  #61
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
The truth is like it or not that somehting crazy like 75% of health care costs goes to people over the gae of 75 and in their last 6 months of life, and by 2025 the rise in heath care costs, the Provinces will be spending close to 100% of their provinacial budgets on health care.

Things like people over the age of 65 can't get knee replacement surgery might sound evil, but it is coming because we can't afford the costs - no choice

The good news - they can always go to the States and pay to get a new knee
Sure thats some of the cost however the bigger issue is the so called new canadians that abuse the system not all but a fair amount do.It could get worse the toronto health board is pushing ontario to drop the 3 month wait for new canadians so new canadians soon as they come get full medical care this will cost us millions of dollars if it happens.

wjhl2009fan is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:42 AM
  #62
Hossa
Registered User
 
Hossa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Abroad
Posts: 9,223
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proust View Post
You sound like a post-grad student. One day you will look back on your "novel and brilliant views" and laugh, like we are now.
Ha. I'd be disappointed if somebody passed a high school civics class with a paper like that. Good luck convincing people to pay taxes for a service they will not be allowed to access when they need it most.

Hossa is online now  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:42 AM
  #63
Tuna99
Registered User
 
Tuna99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,263
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Sure thats some of the cost however the bigger issue is the so called new canadians that abuse the system not all but a fair amount do.It could get worse the toronto health board is pushing ontario to drop the 3 month wait for new canadians so new canadians soon as they come get full medical care this will cost us millions of dollars if it happens.
How do you abuse the system if you have access to it? What do you force Doctors to give you massages, I don't understand how that would work. Do you get lie an extra leg to take home with you by filling out paper work illegally?

If you are in, you're in, new Canadian or not.

If you want to be A.M. talk radio about it, that's something different, it's called vailed racism and that's for a different thread.

Tuna99 is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:48 AM
  #64
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
How do you abuse the system if you have access to it? What do you force Doctors to give you massages, I don't understand how that would work. Do you get lie an extra leg to take home with you by filling out paper work illegally?

If you are in, you're in, new Canadian or not.

If you want to be A.M. talk radio about it, that's something different, it's called vailed racism and that's for a different thread.
How some abuse it is they become canadians go back to there homeland and when they need treatment they come to canada to get it done.Is it a large number no but it is a bit of a issue and if we don't fix the system it more then likely it will get worse.To be clear i am not aginst immergration at all i am aginst people who abuse canada social services and yes people who do abuse the system.


Last edited by wjhl2009fan: 03-09-2011 at 07:43 AM.
wjhl2009fan is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:51 AM
  #65
OgieO
Registered User
 
OgieO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruled By Secrecy View Post
I have the...unfortunate luck to be friends with a pair of hard core right wingers from the States and they have the notion that our system is socialist and thus, evil. Their views have been irritating me as of late and one friend starting saying we have "death panels" up here. Don't ask me where she got that idea from because I have no clue.

So I gotta ask this: What are some truly negative aspects about our system? And would rather have ours or the American system?
First thing you should know (maybe you already sense it) is that a lot of Americans get crazy when it comes to politics. I have a lot of American friends (both Dem and Rep) and for otherwise very normal and rational people, they turn into loons when it comes to politics. It's very black and white to them - i.e. the American way is right and every other way is wrong.

OgieO is online now  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:58 AM
  #66
NyQuil
Setec Astronomy
 
NyQuil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 42,808
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OgieO View Post
It's very black and white to them - i.e. the American way is right and every other way is wrong.
It's like that when it comes to health care in our country.

It's not even a policy issue anymore.

It's become part of Canadian mythology, which is dangerous, because when things change, people will be unable or unwilling to look at alternatives.

NyQuil is online now  
Old
03-09-2011, 06:59 AM
  #67
OgieO
Registered User
 
OgieO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
If you want to be A.M. talk radio about it, that's something different, it's called vailed racism and that's for a different thread.
Is that like the Colorado style of Racism or something?? Probably John Denver's fault.

OgieO is online now  
Old
03-09-2011, 07:07 AM
  #68
OgieO
Registered User
 
OgieO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's like that when it comes to health care in our country.

It's not even a policy issue anymore.

It's become part of Canadian mythology, which is dangerous, because when things change, people will be unable or unwilling to look at alternatives.
No doubt, health care is a sacred thing to many Canadians - a sense of pride and many (most?) get pretty irrational about it. Changes are coming in the near future to our health care system and I suspect you are right - it won't go over well with the population, but there's no choice as health care costs are rising too fast to be sustainable in the current environment.

OgieO is online now  
Old
03-09-2011, 09:01 AM
  #69
Proust
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's like that when it comes to health care in our country.

It's not even a policy issue anymore.

It's become part of Canadian mythology, which is dangerous, because when things change, people will be unable or unwilling to look at alternatives.
I agree that we need to get over ourselves and realize that our healthcare system is not great in comparison to other non-American first world countries. However, DesIraes' policy change is just dumb.

Canada would benefit from moving to a semi-private system like in Germany. Basic healthcare will remain a right for every citizen, but if you can afford it, you can buy your own care. Once we get over the blasphemous nature of a multi-tiered system, we will realize that it actually improves the lowest level of care by lessening the burden upon it.

Proust is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 09:07 AM
  #70
2CHAINZ
@EverythingPawg
 
2CHAINZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: We global Son
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,487
vCash: 177
So you pay tax your entire life and when you are young and working you probably are healthy and not using the health care system, but when you get older even after having paid thousands upon thousands and when you actually need it you should be denied ? Cool theory bro

2CHAINZ is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 09:21 AM
  #71
Asher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herc Man View Post
I love this whole Us vs Them mentality when it comes to heath care. I have had this debate many times with Americans on my many travels; usually brought up by the American.

What it all boils down to is the Canadian heath care system is a non-profit system, whilst the US system is for generating profit for share holders. Plain and simple. Most people I talked to in the US either really, really want our health care or they absolutely hate that socialist system.

I wonder which ones have stocks in the health care industry.

On a side note, try and take away my "socialist" health care and I take up arms to keep it; thats how strongly I believe in our system.

Eat your heart out Sarah! Oh, wait, you are rich and own a large portfolio....
Great points, sir. I would say that the Americans who are vehemently against single payer are the ones who have been brainwashed by the Sarah's and dummy lobby groups set up by the Koch brothers with their lies. The same ones who have been told by phonies like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck that the government trying to stop industry from putting lead in our paint is a slippery slope that will end with the Commies taking over. It's sad to see the common folks getting duped so badly, but I guess that's what eventually happens when you strip the education system down to its bare bones and replace it with FOX News.

Asher is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 09:40 AM
  #72
OgieO
Registered User
 
OgieO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proust View Post
I agree that we need to get over ourselves and realize that our healthcare system is not great in comparison to other non-American first world countries. However, DesIraes' policy change is just dumb.

Canada would benefit from moving to a semi-private system like in Germany. Basic healthcare will remain a right for every citizen, but if you can afford it, you can buy your own care. Once we get over the blasphemous nature of a multi-tiered system, we will realize that it actually improves the lowest level of care by lessening the burden upon it.
haha, I work in government, and we've tried to steer people to that direction but politicians feel (they're right) it's a non-starter with the public. Canadians definitely get weird when it comes to health care.

OgieO is online now  
Old
03-09-2011, 09:44 AM
  #73
Tubby Tuke
Drafting my Overalls
 
Tubby Tuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,601
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's like that when it comes to health care in our country.

It's not even a policy issue anymore.

It's become part of Canadian mythology, which is dangerous, because when things change, people will be unable or unwilling to look at alternatives.
Could not agree more. It's really sad how this issue has become nearly impossible to discuss.

Any attempt at change is always met with 'you're trying to bring American style healthcare here!' and that shuts down the discussion.

Tubby Tuke is online now  
Old
03-09-2011, 10:16 AM
  #74
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patizzie View Post
So you pay tax your entire life and when you are young and working you probably are healthy and not using the health care system, but when you get older even after having paid thousands upon thousands and when you actually need it you should be denied ? Cool theory bro
What i don't get is a couple say it would save millions of dollars ok then should people have to pay health premiums etc if you can't access it down the road.

wjhl2009fan is offline  
Old
03-09-2011, 10:46 AM
  #75
enviro61
Registered User
 
enviro61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,175
vCash: 500
Health care is one of those things that you have to experience it from a few different angles firsthand before you can truly comment intelligently on it. Most people just rehash sound bites they have been fed from various media sources without even knowing it.

Personally having seen the Canadian system first hand having talked at length with a friend who resides in the US, I think neither offers the perfect solution but provides some working pieces for a better one.

It would take me a long time to lay out the framework of the discussions we had or my ideas so I merely want to state that a lot of people are just rehashing sound bites which is exactly what they want you to do.

enviro61 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.