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Old
03-09-2011, 10:46 AM
  #76
paulica
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Originally Posted by PKC View Post
The real reason for the failing healthcare system in Canada is a fundamental lack of education.

It's a cycle that's been perpetuating itself for decades now.

Patient visits doctor. Doctor has tendency to prescribe medicine for every scenario. Patient gets better (almost exclusively despite medicine). Every time patient gets a cough or has to blow their nose, they clog family practices and emergency rooms with a case of a 24-hour head cold because they know the doctor will prescribe them some kind of medicine.

It's literally astounding how easy it is to be a family doctor because of how little education most have on prevention of sickness, rather than their standard pitch meetings with pharma reps where they sell reactionary measures.

And don't even get me started on the, frankly, gargantuan number of senior citizens who claim a huge percentage of hospital beds.

The system is being bogged down by the "turn no one away" approach that doesn't seem to have an ounce of common sense to it. There's a premium on doing right rather than doing it right.
That is actually something that really pisses me off...when people freak out that they've had a cough for like 4 days, with no substantial fever or any other indicative symptoms of something else, but it's been 4 days!!! I need antibiotics!!!

which of course leads to an entirely different issue of the rise of super-bugs and how doctors should refuse giving antibiotics if a patient really doesn't need it...but of course they can't because patients get all up in their face, saying "i need the antibiotics!!!!"

The public needs to be educated about issues of health so as to a) not have to go to the doctor when they really don't need to and b) how to take care of our bodies so that we don't get sick as often (like diet changes, exercise, etc)

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Originally Posted by DiesIrae View Post
can you guys read? it specifically says "unless it can be found that you will likely live at least 3 more years (plus 18 months if female)" and then I forgot to add: "if not found so, they should pay out of pocket".

annually in ontario BILLIONS of dollars are spent on procedures which the CMA deems "short-term therapeutic treatment". money and time and expertise is wasted when someone gets a hip replacement and then dies 16 months later from a known and present heart condition.

such idiotic treatment shouldn't be given by the taxpayers. Pay for it yourself if you want to have such a surgery. End-of-life treatment is ridiculous waste.
As someone who grew up living with my grandparents in the house, reading this makes me very sad...does that mean you don't believe in palliative care, etc?

And how would you know that the pre-existing medical condition would lead to death 16 months later? The human body and disease doesn't function within set boundaries, unfortunately

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03-09-2011, 10:59 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Edible Empire View Post
Could not agree more. It's really sad how this issue has become nearly impossible to discuss.

Any attempt at change is always met with 'you're trying to bring American style healthcare here!' and that shuts down the discussion.
Most would be open to changing it but when people say people over 65 should be refused care that is what gets people upset.

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03-09-2011, 11:06 AM
  #78
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The American system runs through and for insurance companies, and insurance companies are not known for having low margins of profit

One of the reasons why health care is so expensive everywhere is the maneuverings and lobbying of the big Pharma.

They have found a lot of ways to keep their patents long after they were supposed to have elapsed and are very aggressive with lawsuits. Their explanation
for exorbitant prices is that research and development is costly, however its seems that has been greatly over stated according to recent reports.

They do a lot of lobbying though and so all too often governments are in their pockets rather than standing up to them for the consumer.

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03-09-2011, 11:14 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Most would be open to changing it but when people say people over 65 should be refused care that is what gets people upset.
What? The lowest support for keeping our system public and/or making it more public is over 80%...

This isn't about over 65s.

The reality is it's next to impossible to talk about some privatization because it's seen as heresy by the vast, vast majority of the public.

Politicians know this and so they take advantage "OMG look at that guy! He wants to take away your healthcare and let you rot on the streets".


Last edited by Tubby Tuke: 03-09-2011 at 11:23 AM. Reason: poor word choice
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Old
03-09-2011, 11:20 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's like that when it comes to health care in our country.

It's not even a policy issue anymore.

It's become part of Canadian mythology, which is dangerous, because when things change, people will be unable or unwilling to look at alternatives.
I've read some recent polls suggesting most Canadians favour two-tier health care. And why wouldn't they ? Millions of Canadians can't even find a family doctor - yet to question this orthodoxy is to be painted as some kind of American fifth column by the left.

Clearly the U.S. model is not the one most of us want to adopt, but why is that presented as the only other option?

The system we have is based on the Scandinavian model - but surprise - they dropped this model some years ago. It doesn't work.
The same with Great Britain. Instead, they use a mixed model that allows doctors and patients some choices.

There are so many problems with our health care system that I could go on forever , but I'd like to highlight a few.

Wait times - nothing like being on an 8 week wait list to be treated for cancer.

Poor Treatment - Canada is as far from cutting edge medicine as it is from cutting edge internet. I won't even get into the fact we are still using chemo where in many cases US hospitals use more modern drugs.

Waste - Our system is chock full of it. We pay hospital administrators ridicules salaries - in Thunder bay they are paying one who doesn't even have a hospital !

We also have a massive health care bureaucracy - thousand of administrators/bureaucrats that provide no front-line care. This at a time when we can't afford more nurses or doctors.

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Old
03-09-2011, 11:24 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Edible Empire View Post
What? The lowest support for keeping our system completely public is over 80%...

This isn't about over 65s.

The reality is it's next to impossible to talk about some privatization because it's seen as heresy by the vast, vast majority of the public.

Politicians know this and so they take advantage "OMG look at that guy! He wants to take away your healthcare and let you rot on the streets".
As for beeing over 65 look back some want people who are over 65 refused medical care because its a waist.Most would want private healthc are ina limited amount be it mri clinics etc what people are aginst is a full hopsital beeing private.

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03-09-2011, 11:28 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DiesIrae View Post
can you guys read? it specifically says "unless it can be found that you will likely live at least 3 more years (plus 18 months if female)" and then I forgot to add: "if not found so, they should pay out of pocket".

annually in ontario BILLIONS of dollars are spent on procedures which the CMA deems "short-term therapeutic treatment". money and time and expertise is wasted when someone gets a hip replacement and then dies 16 months later from a known and present heart condition.

such idiotic treatment shouldn't be given by the taxpayers. Pay for it yourself if you want to have such a surgery. End-of-life treatment is ridiculous waste.
Of course. Why pay for medical care for the elderly when we have many perfectly good ice flows at our disposal in this country.

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Old
03-09-2011, 03:01 PM
  #83
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Ah, why does everything have to be a competition? There's always been more than one correct way to do most things and it's no different here.

We don't share the same ideologies. I've had this discussion with an american friend in the past and some of the things he says just baffle me. Canadians, in general, take pride in our social programs. Not because they're the most efficient or the best but because they help people who would otherwise not have access to those services.

Say what you want about wait times, but there is no wait times for emergencies. There are no death panels and there is certainly no class discrimination.

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03-09-2011, 03:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
Ah, why does everything have to be a competition? There's always been more than one correct way to do most things and it's no different here.

We don't share the same ideologies. I've had this discussion with an american friend in the past and some of the things he says just baffle me. Canadians, in general, take pride in our social programs. Not because they're the most efficient or the best but because they help people who would otherwise not have access to those services.

Say what you want about wait times, but there is no wait times for emergencies. There are no death panels and there is certainly no class discrimination.
Yes there is wait time at the er for minor things.

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Old
03-09-2011, 03:30 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Edible Empire View Post
What? The lowest support for keeping our system public and/or making it more public is over 80%...

This isn't about over 65s.

The reality is it's next to impossible to talk about some privatization because it's seen as heresy by the vast, vast majority of the public.

Politicians know this and so they take advantage "OMG look at that guy! He wants to take away your healthcare and let you rot on the streets".
I think defenders of public health care are worried about a slippery slope. There would have to be limits set to ensure there's not a brain drain from the public system, and that politicians won't gut health care budgets with justifications that private clinics are bridging the gap they're creating.

The best solution is to work on the publicly funded (and controlled .. that's by you and me, not some invisible hand) options to reduce elective surgery on knees and hips, and on MRI's. And there are initiatives to reduce those wait times, the problems aren't being ignored.

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Old
03-09-2011, 03:33 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by kyle747 View Post
I've read some recent polls suggesting most Canadians favour two-tier health care. And why wouldn't they ? Millions of Canadians can't even find a family doctor - yet to question this orthodoxy is to be painted as some kind of American fifth column by the left.

Clearly the U.S. model is not the one most of us want to adopt, but why is that presented as the only other option?

The system we have is based on the Scandinavian model - but surprise - they dropped this model some years ago. It doesn't work.
The same with Great Britain. Instead, they use a mixed model that allows doctors and patients some choices.

There are so many problems with our health care system that I could go on forever , but I'd like to highlight a few.

Wait times - nothing like being on an 8 week wait list to be treated for cancer.

Poor Treatment - Canada is as far from cutting edge medicine as it is from cutting edge internet. I won't even get into the fact we are still using chemo where in many cases US hospitals use more modern drugs.

Waste - Our system is chock full of it. We pay hospital administrators ridicules salaries - in Thunder bay they are paying one who doesn't even have a hospital !

We also have a massive health care bureaucracy - thousand of administrators/bureaucrats that provide no front-line care. This at a time when we can't afford more nurses or doctors.
Insurance companies offer uncontrolled bureau-bloat.

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Old
03-09-2011, 03:34 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Yes there is wait time at the er for minor things.
You shouldn't be going to the ER for minor things if there are clinics open.

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03-09-2011, 03:39 PM
  #88
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Unfortunately for us, the vast majority of Americans have access to health care which is a superior quality than ours. Yes many don't have coverage, but way more do.

Waiting for 32 hours in an Ottawa emergency room to see a doctor is not worth bragging about. This system we have will collapse on itself if we do not open up more room for private delivery of health care.

There is a reason why people go to the states for cancer treatment and MRI scans.

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03-09-2011, 03:43 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
You shouldn't be going to the ER for minor things if there are clinics open.
I don't but people do the queens way carleton has a long wait most days.

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03-09-2011, 03:48 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by blahblah3 View Post
Unfortunately for us, the vast majority of Americans have access to health care which is a superior quality than ours. Yes many don't have coverage, but way more do.

Waiting for 32 hours in an Ottawa emergency room to see a doctor is not worth bragging about. This system we have will collapse on itself if we do not open up more room for private delivery of health care.

There is a reason why people go to the states for cancer treatment and MRI scans.
I don't know if i would go as far saying they have superior health care its easier to access thats about it.As for the vast majoirty have medical care in the states thats not true yes some do but not most in any way.Again people go to the states beacuse of the long wait and why is that because everyone has a right to medical care in canada the same can not be said about the states.As for private health care with in reason yes we need that but more then anything we need to invest into our current medical system.

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Old
03-09-2011, 04:26 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by blahblah3 View Post
Unfortunately for us, the vast majority of Americans have access to health care which is a superior quality than ours. Yes many don't have coverage, but way more do.

Waiting for 32 hours in an Ottawa emergency room to see a doctor is not worth bragging about. This system we have will collapse on itself if we do not open up more room for private delivery of health care.

There is a reason why people go to the states for cancer treatment and MRI scans.
Using the exception and not the rule to try and get your point across is a telltale sign that you don't have much of an argument.

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03-09-2011, 04:29 PM
  #92
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again, canadian-american politics is non-kosher. Stick to arguments about the health care systems themselves.

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03-09-2011, 04:56 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
Using the exception and not the rule to try and get your point across is a telltale sign that you don't have much of an argument.
This stuff happens every week, and normal waiting times are roughly 8 hours now.


Last edited by danishh: 03-09-2011 at 05:52 PM.
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03-09-2011, 05:51 PM
  #94
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The major issue with the health care system is just lack of funding. The US pays 50% more then us. The wait time for MRI machines is ridiculous (over 3 months in downtown TO, which is ridiculous when your doctor is saying that depending on the results, you should have surgery in a month!) and it could easily be fixed if we spent a bit more on our healthcare system.

And for those griping about people wasting doctors time with little sicknesses, the opposite can also be true. I waited a while before going to my doctor once and found out that I had pneumonia.

We are a rich country and our human capital is at a premium. We should spend alot on keeping that capital going.

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03-09-2011, 10:29 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by blahblah3 View Post
Unfortunately for us, the vast majority of Americans have access to health care which is a superior quality than ours. Yes many don't have coverage, but way more do.

Waiting for 32 hours in an Ottawa emergency room to see a doctor is not worth bragging about. This system we have will collapse on itself if we do not open up more room for private delivery of health care.

There is a reason why people go to the states for cancer treatment and MRI scans.
I wouldn't say the Quality is better. The speed is better (IF YOU HAVE MONEY), but not the quality.

I am honestly shocked to hear that someone would wait 32 hours in an ER. That's quite rare.

Longest I've ever waited was about 6 hours, and I've had times when I have spent no longer than 10 min waiting.

I am a nurse, I've worked in an ER (although I don't anymore). But our system is pretty good.

Considering we don't have to pay for most things, and people get fair treatment.

Things that are not as great in Canada are the organization of where the money goes. Honestly, we could create a fabulous system that would save money by using Nurse Practitioners and other people to deal with smaller issues. Things like ear infections, basic immunizations, UTI's can all be dealt by someone other than a doctor. This would save huge amounts of money, and cut back on wait times.

But all in all, things are pretty good. Yes, you will get triaged if you go to the ER. So if you do go on a day where there are very serious things happening, you get stuck waiting.

Recently, I had this discussion with a family at work. Half of the family lived in the states, and they came down and were absolutely amazing at the care the patient received. The one uncle was like "Wait till I tell them what I've seen here!".

The major problem is the wait times. Waiting for things like gall-bladder surgeries, or tonsilectomy, MRI's, CT scans and the like will take time if not urgent. And the major difference in the states would be, if you had the money - you would get the care quickly, if not - you'd be in a worse position than an American.

On the flip side, a huge problem in the states is post op care. There is a huge pressure for doc's to make sure that after a surgery a patient doesn't spend long in the hospital. Often after surgery, you will go home very shortly, with IV's, chest tubes and all of that. Simply getting a check up once or twice a day by a nurse.

People will ALWAYS complain about our healthcare system in canada. But when you have a heart attack or some form of real big emergency, or a child of yours does, and they get rushed immediately to the OR or for help, you will be glad you won't be getting a bill in the mail later.

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03-09-2011, 10:42 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by paulica View Post

The public needs to be educated about issues of health so as to a) not have to go to the doctor when they really don't need to and b) how to take care of our bodies so that we don't get sick as often (like diet changes, exercise, etc)

This is why we need to use other forms of "health" care. Like the health-phone line (telehealth). People constantly assume they are the "MOST" sick person there. Also then getting upset when they have to wait 8 hours in ER (not realizing that they will probably get more sick, waiting in the ER).

I don't think this problem will get better though. People are just getting more "me me me"/"drugs drugs drugs". People KNOW how to live a healthy life-style. Everyone knows eating good food, exercise and things like not smoking is GOOD for you. People know, the government needs to use other forms of health care (other than docs), to deal with the smaller issues. Like when someone has a cold and wants drugs. Why does a doc need to be bothered with a virus which won't be cured by anti-biotics?

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03-09-2011, 10:49 PM
  #97
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People will ALWAYS complain about our healthcare system in canada. But when you have a heart attack or some form of real big emergency, or a child of yours does, and they get rushed immediately to the OR or for help, you will be glad you won't be getting a bill in the mail later.
Yeah I don't think people realize just how expensive healthcare is in the US, even for people who are insured. Insured people are often bankrupted by having to pay the insurance premiums.

In fact medical bills and medical insurance bills are a leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States. A lot of people lose everything because they get a serious but treatable illness and just can't afford the medical bills or insurance premiums.

Also most insurance companies will fight tooth and nail not to pay for expensive procedures. Many Americans with insurance coverage have to wait for some bureaucrat to sign off before they can get a medical procedure done.

The main difference between Canada and the US is that in Canada if you have a serious illness, you get treated for it no matter who you are and you won't pay for it out of pocket. In the US you're SOL if your insurance company can exploit some loophole in the policy, because they don't care about you or your family. They want to collect your insurance payments without having to pay your bills if they can help it.

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03-09-2011, 10:58 PM
  #98
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Yeah I don't think people realize just how expensive healthcare is in the US, even for people who are insured. Insured people are often bankrupted by having to pay the insurance premiums.

In fact medical bills and medical insurance bills are a leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States. A lot of people lose everything because they get a serious but treatable illness and just can't afford the medical bills or insurance premiums.

Also most insurance companies will fight tooth and nail not to pay for expensive procedures. Many Americans with insurance coverage have to wait for some bureaucrat to sign off before they can get a medical procedure done.

The main difference between Canada and the US is that in Canada if you have a serious illness, you get treated for it no matter who you are and you won't pay for it out of pocket. In the US you're SOL if your insurance company can exploit some loophole in the policy, because they don't care about you or your family. They want to collect your insurance payments without having to pay your bills if they can help it.
The funny thing is, as far as our own taxes, we don't pay much more in tax than American's. And we get care, REGARDLESS.

It does suck that you might not get an MRI immediately, or you may wait in ER for 6 hours when you have a broken foot. But in the end of it all, I am thankful EVERYDAY that I live in Canada.

Although, when it does come to kids, most insurance companies won't say no to kids needing things, in the states. But even so, the families still have to pay a chunk from their own pocket.

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03-10-2011, 01:51 AM
  #99
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I was once waited 4 hours at the ER with a kidney stone. I had another one 5 years earlier in France, and was helped immediately.

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03-10-2011, 01:57 AM
  #100
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The waits are the biggest problem, like Danishhh said. I had a staph infection in my knee a few years ago, and I had to wait 2 months to see a specialist. Needless to say, I have a scar on my knee the size of a asteroid crater on the moon. I've also been through a lot of doctors, as I find many of them here stink. I dunno if it's easier to get jobs as a doctor in Canada so they hire anybody, or what have you. Not to say there aren't any good ones, you just have to look around a bit, or be really lucky. My current family doctor is a life-saving goddess.


I do find that hospital doctors, though, on a whole are really good and friendly here. I don't know what it's like in the states.


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