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Old
03-07-2011, 04:03 PM
  #126
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GM Joe not only lost him for nothing, he gave up having whoever he acquired by trade, from playing as well. Huge rookie mistake, Joe!

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03-07-2011, 04:09 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
There is no rationality in saying Richards would be a mistake, other than missing a few weeks with a minor concussion. He's a 90+ point center who can qaurterback a powerplay. Where else are we getting such a player? Fairy tale land?



*Correct 12 post rant.



They do not have the elite talent. Not nearly enough. This team isn't winning a cup with Brandon Dubinsky as a 1st line LW, and Dan Girardi as a 1st pairing defenseman.

And people need to give the "anything can happen" as rest. The Flyers, for whatever reason, had an underwhelming regular season. Locker room problems. The way they played in the playoffs is what was expected of them all along.
Call me gun shy, I'm just terrified of giving anyone 8 million dollars a year in their late 20's. We've done that 4 times post lockout, Gaborik is the only one that has even panned out. I agree with finding a more suitable Defenseman for Staal though but again we have 4 major Restricted FA's up this year. And honestly I'd rather lock up Cally and Dubinsky for a long time then anything close in the FA market.

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03-07-2011, 04:12 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by PawelW007 View Post
Call me gun shy, I'm just terrified of giving anyone 8 million dollars a year in their late 20's. We've done that 4 times post lockout, Gaborik is the only one that has even panned out. I agree with finding a more suitable Defenseman for Staal though but again we have 4 major Restricted FA's up this year. And honestly I'd rather lock up Cally and Dubinsky for a long time then anything close in the FA market.
I don't think it would take 8 million to lock up Richards.

It'd be more like a Gaborik contract.

And considering we got McDonagh out of it, I consider the Gomez contract one that worked out.

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03-07-2011, 04:18 PM
  #129
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He's making 7. something now, every player wants a raise when they hit Free Agency I can see it getting to Kovalchuk level if there are 2 bidders and the inflation of...well everything....continues.

And its so funny I was just thinking that while typing my last post about the Gomez situation! I think Mcdonaugh-Staal would work and if McIllrath is as "real deal" as people say, we might not even have to go and get a D-man.

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03-07-2011, 04:21 PM
  #130
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we're all a little gun shy as fans of this team

sather **** us pretty hard

but Richards is the type of dude its OK to pay for like that

us singing him would be a case of signing THE guy we want to fix a gaping hole in our lineup...as opposed to signing plan B or C (or both?) and trying to ram a square peg in a round hole

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03-07-2011, 05:22 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Blueblood 2 View Post
GM Joe not only lost him for nothing, he gave up having whoever he acquired by trade, from playing as well. Huge rookie mistake, Joe!
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...cle1131385.ece

Quote:
The deal sent the center and goaltender Johan Holmqvist to the Stars for goalie Mike Smith, forwards Jussi Jokinen and Jeff Halpern and a 2009 fourth-round draft pick.

{and by the end of it all...}

So, what did the Lightning reap from the trade? Smith; Purcell, who is a solid wing; and prospect Beukeboom. (later used in the Brewer trade)
Stars really didn't give up that much to get Richards. And it's not like the past 4 seasons were worth nothing. I remember thinking we could have put together a better offer back then. Granted Jokinen was looking pretty good back then. But that was the year we signed Drury and Gomez so Shanahan-Richards-Jagr would have been crazy delicious! or Dubi-Richards-Jagr, Straka-Richards-Jagr. take your pick.

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03-09-2011, 12:15 PM
  #132
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Head Coach Marc Crawford said that Brad Richards is scheduled to play tonight against Calgary.
https://twitter.com/#!/DallasStars/s...38650007678976

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Old
03-09-2011, 04:02 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
we're all a little gun shy as fans of this team

sather **** us pretty hard

but Richards is the type of dude its OK to pay for like that

us singing him would be a case of signing THE guy we want to fix a gaping hole in our lineup...as opposed to signing plan B or C (or both?) and trying to ram a square peg in a round hole
Gee, I feel like I've heard that before about an upcoming free agent in his 30s who has had a couple of great seasons but has never consistently been an elite player in the NHL. Yeah, I'm not sure but that certainly sounds familiar....

Look, it never matters what I think, and New Yorkers are the dumbest fans in pro sports thanks to the Steinbrenner effect (but, but, but, that guy's a proven pro player, that kid is only potential....!) and Glen Sather has proven himself unable to avoid making stupid signings in the past, but you are all kidding yourselves if you think signing Richards is a good move if the contract is huge and it's a long term deal. What happens when some of these kids do develop into studs and we can't keep them because we are paying huge money to an underacheiving Richards? Even worse, how does this effect some of our other budding young players who will have now one less spot on the roster. Even if Richards works out perfectly, the amount of money and years on a FA contract for him is going make us loose more players in the long run, and so it wont be a good move.

Of course, all this means is that its guaranteed to happen. Sigh, I wish we had Glen Holland and New Yorkers would develop a little bit of patience instead of always needing such instant gratification.

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03-09-2011, 04:17 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by cmdevisser View Post
Gee, I feel like I've heard that before about an upcoming free agent in his 30s who has had a couple of great seasons but has never consistently been an elite player in the NHL. Yeah, I'm not sure but that certainly sounds familiar....

Look, it never matters what I think, and New Yorkers are the dumbest fans in pro sports thanks to the Steinbrenner effect (but, but, but, that guy's a proven pro player, that kid is only potential....!) and Glen Sather has proven himself unable to avoid making stupid signings in the past, but you are all kidding yourselves if you think signing Richards is a good move if the contract is huge and it's a long term deal. What happens when some of these kids do develop into studs and we can't keep them because we are paying huge money to an underacheiving Richards? Even worse, how does this effect some of our other budding young players who will have now one less spot on the roster. Even if Richards works out perfectly, the amount of money and years on a FA contract for him is going make us loose more players in the long run, and so it wont be a good move.

Of course, all this means is that its guaranteed to happen. Sigh, I wish we had Glen Holland and New Yorkers would develop a little bit of patience instead of always needing such instant gratification.
I guess we disagree on a fundamental level on what Richards brings to the team

I understand your point but don't share it

In my opinion, signing Richards is worth not having the space to retain aa or boyle or both....and I've recently made numerous posts about the importance of those guys.

Our biggest need, hands down, is a top level center....I don't see one in our system and I think Richards is exactly that

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Old
03-09-2011, 04:39 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by cmdevisser View Post
Gee, I feel like I've heard that before about an upcoming free agent in his 30s who has had a couple of great seasons but has never consistently been an elite player in the NHL. Yeah, I'm not sure but that certainly sounds familiar....

Sigh, I wish we had Glen Holland and New Yorkers would develop a little bit of patience instead of always needing such instant gratification.
Who are you referring to here? Drury, Gomez, Redden? None of those guys were ever even NEAR the talent level Richards is at. Not to mention this season alone, even with the injury, Richards will likely outscore Drury and Gomez in their BEST years.

Drury was never more than a good 2nd line center. Gomez was always a 1B/C kind of guy. Richards is a legit 1A center when healthy. If you don't know that than you just haven't watched him enough.

To refer to the second statement i highlighted. What patience are you talking about. The 11 years we've waited with Sather as GM. Or the 16 since our last cup? To say Ranger fans are impatient is ridiculous. Also, who do you think will develop into an elite player if we do take the patience route? The only kid in our system right now that has hopes of being a 40-50 goal kinda guy is Kreider and thats not even a definite. After Richards, the FA pool this year and next is extremely weak. By that time Henrik will be 31 going on 32. How long until patience wears thin? I've stood by this team my whole life, and I will for the rest of it, but to say we are impatient is asinine. Rangers fans are actually some of the most patient ones on the planet.

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03-09-2011, 04:40 PM
  #136
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Thanks.

Hope he plays well. But I hope the Stars miss the playoffs, by a wide margin.

I want Richards in a Rangers uniform in September.

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Old
03-09-2011, 06:23 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckface NYR View Post
Who are you referring to here? Drury, Gomez, Redden? None of those guys were ever even NEAR the talent level Richards is at. Not to mention this season alone, even with the injury, Richards will likely outscore Drury and Gomez in their BEST years.

Drury was never more than a good 2nd line center. Gomez was always a 1B/C kind of guy. Richards is a legit 1A center when healthy. If you don't know that than you just haven't watched him enough.

To refer to the second statement i highlighted. What patience are you talking about. The 11 years we've waited with Sather as GM. Or the 16 since our last cup? To say Ranger fans are impatient is ridiculous. Also, who do you think will develop into an elite player if we do take the patience route? The only kid in our system right now that has hopes of being a 40-50 goal kinda guy is Kreider and thats not even a definite. After Richards, the FA pool this year and next is extremely weak. By that time Henrik will be 31 going on 32. How long until patience wears thin? I've stood by this team my whole life, and I will for the rest of it, but to say we are impatient is asinine. Rangers fans are actually some of the most patient ones on the planet.
Yes, well that's not exactly what everyone thought in the years that we brought them in. And check the stats, both Drury and Gomez had very solid years right before we signed them. Consider for a moment the mysterious case of Mr. Gaborik, who may very well rebound to his previous form, but just a year and a half into his tenure as a Ranger we have seen how many threads about trading him and getting out from under his contract?

Point being, they are all always going to be a different story, it is never the same thing as all of the past failures we have had with FA. No one here ever takes into consideration things like whether or not certain players produce points due to their systems, their teammates, their enviornment, etc. And, no one ever seems to take into consideration the total uncertainty each player brings as they advance throughout their careers in terms of injuries, declining skill sets, determination to play at a high level, etc.

Yes of course no one know whether or not we have a 1st line center in the organization, because unless your name is Crosby, Malkin, or Stamkos it tends to take a little bit of time for players to mature.

It is not as if Stepan or Anisimov do not have the talent to develop into 1st line centers, we will simply have to wait and see. To say that Stepan could not be that player for instance is just plain stupid given the fact that he is a rookie. Take a look at the career progession of a player like Marc Savard, Spezza, Staal, Gretzlaf, Statsny, Zetterberg, Datsuyk, Sedin etc. It's not like these players were done developing in their rookie seasons.

It doesn't matter, I've seen these debates long enough to know that nothing I am going to say is going to convince anyone of anything. Rangers fans are notoriously bad at figuring out that players' seasons are not guarenteed to remain consistent from one to the next, and they never learn to think differently about how a high priced free agent is going to look over the length of his contract.

In any event, I personally guarantee that there will be just ad many 'Trade Richards' threads in two or three years as we have seen for Gomez, Redden, Drury, Gaborik, et. al. Learn people, learn!

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Old
03-09-2011, 07:33 PM
  #138
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7-10 year deal?

Maybe when we could get around the cap and sign him for a 4 mil cap hit.
I'm not signing anybody for more than 7 years unless their name starts with an S and ends in a teven Stamkos.

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03-09-2011, 07:55 PM
  #139
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He's making 7. something now, every player wants a raise when they hit Free Agency I can see it getting to Kovalchuk level if there are 2 bidders and the inflation of...well everything....continues.

And its so funny I was just thinking that while typing my last post about the Gomez situation! I think Mcdonaugh-Staal would work and if McIllrath is as "real deal" as people say, we might not even have to go and get a D-man.
The market has definitely changed since he signed that contract, I see him getting around 7 like Joe Thornton did. The concussion definitely curbs the inflation a bit too.

Either way, 7 years is too long in my opinion, if we can lock him up for 5 great, anything beyond that we need to step away.

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03-09-2011, 08:28 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by PawelW007 View Post
He's making 7. something now, every player wants a raise when they hit Free Agency I can see it getting to Kovalchuk level if there are 2 bidders and the inflation of...well everything....continues.

And its so funny I was just thinking that while typing my last post about the Gomez situation! I think Mcdonaugh-Staal would work and if McIllrath is as "real deal" as people say, we might not even have to go and get a D-man.
Richards is not going to get the monster contract and will sign for a cap hit of 7 million dollars tops, you can book the post. As has been posted before in the last two seasons the only player in the nhl who signed a deal with a cap hit over 7 million is rick nash. Not even kovalchuk has a cap hit over 7 million. Richards will take a front loaded deal with a no trade, probably 9 million in the first year, than 8 million, than 7 million, than 4.5 than 4 in the last year. Cap hit is 6.5 million, GMs have to be careful with the contracts they give out not to cripple a team financially. Richards and his agent will understand this if he intends to come here.

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Old
03-09-2011, 08:31 PM
  #141
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Either way, 7 years is too long in my opinion, if we can lock him up for 5 great, anything beyond that we need to step away.
7 years is fine with me, as long as the No Movement Clause expires after the 4th year

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03-09-2011, 08:36 PM
  #142
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7 years is fine with me, as long as the No Movement Clause expires after the 4th year
Yeah, we have had a few rough experiences with NMC's

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03-09-2011, 08:44 PM
  #143
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I can't help but to keep thinking if Brad Richards does become a Ranger, that the chemistry between he and Gaborik may not be there. And, specifically if he doesn't fit with Gaborik, how would he fare with Dubi and Callahan? OK, could work. Some real hard workers centered by a dynamic playmaker. Kinda like it. Or...What kind of chemistry would Brad Richards and Brian Boyle have if Boyle moved to the right side. Bang!...I like that better. Can Boyle ever be a top 6 winger? What would a Rangers top 6 look like with three physical players there. Dubi, Callahan and Boyle? ...Just thinking out loud here but my conclusion was even if he doesn't click with Gaborik there are still a ton of possibilities.

Only one thing scares me. Signing him for too much, for too long, and with a contract that leaves the ball in Brad Richards court.

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03-09-2011, 08:53 PM
  #144
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I can't help but to keep thinking if Brad Richards does become a Ranger, that the chemistry between he and Gaborik may not be there. And, specifically if he doesn't fit with Gaborik, how would he fare with Dubi and Callahan? OK, could work. Some real hard workers centered by a dynamic playmaker. Kinda like it. Or...What kind of chemistry would Brad Richards and Brian Boyle have if Boyle moved to the right side. Bang!...I like that better. Can Boyle ever be a top 6 winger? What would a Rangers top 6 look like with three physical players there. Dubi, Callahan and Boyle? ...Just thinking out loud here but my conclusion was even if he doesn't click with Gaborik there are still a ton of possibilities.

Only one thing scares me. Signing him for too much, for too long, and with a contract that leaves the ball in Brad Richards court.
Honestly I'm far more concerned with this than any potential chemistry issue. The guy is an elite player...he'll put up points. But the last thing we need is to mortgage the future all over again. If we can lock him up for 4 or 5 years max at a 6.5M cap hit I'm down with it....anything more than that and we're asking for trouble.

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03-09-2011, 09:02 PM
  #145
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What if they give him an 8 year contract structured liked
Year 1-10m NMC
Year 2-10m NMC
Year 3-8m NMC
Year 4-8m NMC
Year 5-5m Limited NTC
Year 6-4m Limited NTC
Year 7-2m
Year 8-1m

48/8 6m cap hit. Heavily front loaded, but I don't think the contract does anything to suggest cap circumvention.

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03-09-2011, 09:14 PM
  #146
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i thought cap-hit was the total amount of the contract divided by the number of years?? obviously if that's the case front-loading only makes sense from a GM's perspective. Where you pay top dollar for the high quality years, but later in the contract he's much more reasonably priced for other teams to take his diminishing skills

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03-09-2011, 09:18 PM
  #147
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i thought cap-hit was the total amount of the contract divided by the number of years?? obviously if that's the case front-loading only makes sense from a GM's perspective. Where you pay top dollar for the high quality years, but later in the contract he's much more reasonably priced for other teams to take his diminishing skills
It is.

The front loading just leaves the NYR with options towards the end of the contract. Should a buy-out be necessary, it takes the actual dollars remaining on the contract, so buying out the last two years would cost us essentially nothing. It also gives Richards*-in this situation- more incentive to retire if his career has fallen to that in the last couple years because he would be losing out on only a little of his contract, 1-2m compared to the 8-10 he made during the first 4 years.

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03-09-2011, 09:57 PM
  #148
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It is.

The front loading just leaves the NYR with options towards the end of the contract. Should a buy-out be necessary, it takes the actual dollars remaining on the contract, so buying out the last two years would cost us essentially nothing. It also gives Richards*-in this situation- more incentive to retire if his career has fallen to that in the last couple years because he would be losing out on only a little of his contract, 1-2m compared to the 8-10 he made during the first 4 years.
that's a really good point, t hat I'd never considered about front loaded contracts.

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03-10-2011, 01:29 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
There is no rationality in saying Richards would be a mistake, other than missing a few weeks with a minor concussion. He's a 90+ point center who can qaurterback a powerplay. Where else are we getting such a player? Fairy tale land?



*Correct 12 post rant.



They do not have the elite talent. Not nearly enough. This team isn't winning a cup with Brandon Dubinsky as a 1st line LW, and Dan Girardi as a 1st pairing defenseman.

And people need to give the "anything can happen" as rest. The Flyers, for whatever reason, had an underwhelming regular season. Locker room problems. The way they played in the playoffs is what was expected of them all along.
I agree with you, but I think Duby can be a 1st line LW with Richards.

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03-10-2011, 03:31 AM
  #150
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Rangers aren't offering that type of deal

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/islan...#ixzz1Foz56Piy

5 years/$32.5M/$6.5M would be my highest offer

Arthur Staple from last week

http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infomo...ed:i=1.2717805

There you have it. The hockey scribes with the best Ranger connects are reporting the same thing.

Won't break the bank for Richards. The Rangers told them that.
Great stuff RB as usual!

I've been saying this all along.

Bidding could -- I do not know, I can't read the GM's minds -- but bidding could go nuts for him on July 1st.

You have 6.5m of cap room. You make a offer for Richards. You slot him into your lineup, and you look at the sheet of paper infront of you with the roster and the cap-space -- and it looks great. Then the agent comes back and say, sorry that offer will not do it. What do you do? How do you think? Lets say you have a guy on the 4th line making 1.5m. Suddenly the difference between getting Richards is replacing that guy on the 4th line with someone making 0.5m per, and upping the offer with a mil. Then the above repeats itself.

Or it becomes about years on the contract. Suddenly everyone is offering 7m per. Someone have a 5 year deal on the table. Richards camp asks for 8 years. In 2011, how much value do you put on the season in 2016? Before you know it you have some idiot offering 7 years (Someone who knows that odds are that he will get fired unless he gets Richards and gets his team into the PO's).

If everyone are reasonable, they'll offer 6.5m for 5 years -- and Richards opts to come to NY instead of any other place. Will everyone be reasonable?

Slats won't stop at 6.5m. But I hope that he aint prepaired to break the bank either, and by the reports above thats not the case. If he breaks the bank -- things could get ugly.

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