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Old
03-10-2011, 06:22 AM
  #101
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I suffered a retinal detachment last year, and received treatmentbthe same day. No wiating. Unfortunately, there were complications and I needed four more surgeries including a lens implant. My cost for all of his in Canada? Nothing, not a cent! In the US, I,m pretty sure I wouldn't be using that eye anymore, because of the cost for treatment.

Also, I believe that under the NAFT agreement, if we privatize our health system then it falls under the trade competition rules, and government subsidized care health care will then be considered as anti-competitive practice. This could lead to higher costs in Canada.

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03-10-2011, 06:37 AM
  #102
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I wouldn't say the Quality is better. The speed is better (IF YOU HAVE MONEY), but not the quality.

I am honestly shocked to hear that someone would wait 32 hours in an ER. That's quite rare.

Longest I've ever waited was about 6 hours, and I've had times when I have spent no longer than 10 min waiting.

I am a nurse, I've worked in an ER (although I don't anymore). But our system is pretty good.

Considering we don't have to pay for most things, and people get fair treatment.

Things that are not as great in Canada are the organization of where the money goes. Honestly, we could create a fabulous system that would save money by using Nurse Practitioners and other people to deal with smaller issues. Things like ear infections, basic immunizations, UTI's can all be dealt by someone other than a doctor. This would save huge amounts of money, and cut back on wait times.

But all in all, things are pretty good. Yes, you will get triaged if you go to the ER. So if you do go on a day where there are very serious things happening, you get stuck waiting.

Recently, I had this discussion with a family at work. Half of the family lived in the states, and they came down and were absolutely amazing at the care the patient received. The one uncle was like "Wait till I tell them what I've seen here!".

The major problem is the wait times. Waiting for things like gall-bladder surgeries, or tonsilectomy, MRI's, CT scans and the like will take time if not urgent. And the major difference in the states would be, if you had the money - you would get the care quickly, if not - you'd be in a worse position than an American.

On the flip side, a huge problem in the states is post op care. There is a huge pressure for doc's to make sure that after a surgery a patient doesn't spend long in the hospital. Often after surgery, you will go home very shortly, with IV's, chest tubes and all of that. Simply getting a check up once or twice a day by a nurse.

People will ALWAYS complain about our healthcare system in canada. But when you have a heart attack or some form of real big emergency, or a child of yours does, and they get rushed immediately to the OR or for help, you will be glad you won't be getting a bill in the mail later.

The quality is better, the US does the vast majority of medical research through its universities, therefore cutting edge treatments are more readily available. They also have far more tools at their disposal. Also, our doctors are chronically underplayed for what they do, many talented doctors go to the US.

The quality is definitely better. I am not saying their system is the solution, but don't try and spread this myth that it is even fathomable that our system has an equal quality. That is simply impossible and ridiculous.

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03-10-2011, 07:18 AM
  #103
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The quality is better, the US does the vast majority of medical research through its universities, therefore cutting edge treatments are more readily available. They also have far more tools at their disposal. Also, our doctors are chronically underplayed for what they do, many talented doctors go to the US.

The quality is definitely better. I am not saying their system is the solution, but don't try and spread this myth that it is even fathomable that our system has an equal quality. That is simply impossible and ridiculous.
Maybe to a degree its better as with research we do a fair amount in canada and have some of the best labs etc in the world.There system is not the answer people go bankrupt getting medical treatment and lots can't even afford medical care do you really want that in canada.As for equal quality its close canadas biggest issues in lack of funding and everyone has access to care if everything had that right in the states there system would be back logged much like in canada.

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03-10-2011, 07:52 AM
  #104
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The wait times argument for the US system is a complete canard. The only reason they're shorter in the US is that healthcare and even insurance is prohibitively expensive. If they made any attempt to treat everyone who actually needed medical care they'd probably have horrific wait times.

Also quality of care isn't uniformly better in the US than in Canada. If you're wealthy and can afford it, there are really nice hospitals which are better than Canadian ones. If you don't have the money to pay for those there are a lot of places that aren't as good and have long wait times.

BTW the wait time complaint is legitimate, but keep in mind that you're not waiting because the hospital staff is all taking a 3 hour smoke break, it's because there's someone with an immediate life threatening injury who needed treatment before you. If you are taken to the ER with a heart attack or collapsed lung or whatever you're going to get treated right away.

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03-10-2011, 07:54 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SensGal View Post
I wouldn't say the Quality is better. The speed is better (IF YOU HAVE MONEY), but not the quality.

I am a nurse, I've worked in an ER (although I don't anymore). But our system is pretty good.

Considering we don't have to pay for most things, and people get fair treatment.


The major problem is the wait times. Waiting for things like gall-bladder surgeries, or tonsilectomy, MRI's, CT scans and the like will take time if not urgent. And the major difference in the states would be, if you had the money - you would get the care quickly, if not - you'd be in a worse position than an American.

On the flip side, a huge problem in the states is post op care. There is a huge pressure for doc's to make sure that after a surgery a patient doesn't spend long in the hospital. Often after surgery, you will go home very shortly, with IV's, chest tubes and all of that. Simply getting a check up once or twice a day by a nurse.

People will ALWAYS complain about our healthcare system in canada. But when you have a heart attack or some form of real big emergency, or a child of yours does, and they get rushed immediately to the OR or for help, you will be glad you won't be getting a bill in the mail later.
Let me tell you my story about gallbladder surgery since I just had it out on January 19, 2011. I first went in with pains in June 2010. 8 months and that is only because I took matters into my own hands and gae up waiting for 'the system' to get it done, otherwise I would still be waiting for my next appointment with the Gastrospecialist on April 25, 2011 at which time he would then make a referral for more testing and perhaps a surgeon at some point. I had so many attacks that when they pulled it out the surgeon said it was extremely scarred and I had other complications as a result of it taking so long.

I gave up on the system and decided to control it to the best of my own ability. No longer letting my family Dr. book appointments for me but rather giving me a referral and letting me book them myself. I learned that if you let your family Dr. book you ultrasounds, upper GIs and HIDAs they will not search for the best or quickest place but will make one call, two max and that is it. I spoke with a couple of people who had an attack and went into ER and got it out the next day (yeah the system is that brutually inconsistent and the squeaky wheel always gets the grease). I tried not to say the pain was a 10 when they asked because I didn't want to bump other people who were dealing with more severe issues but I learned you have to take charge for yourself because noone else will.

Eventually I just got so damn frustrated I asked them to send my results to a surgeon and who ran a HIDA scan which I booked and called repeatedly to get on cancellation lists. Eventually I get it done showing a 0% functioning gallbladder and they tell me 4 more months till surgery. Fek that I say and call every surgeon at every hospital within 4 hrs away. I find one and get it done in 2 weeks for a total elapsed time of 8 months and would have been well over a year if I didn't take charge.

Don't get me going on my mother's cancer and her loss of life. Yeah our system is great if you compare it to the worst out there but to bury your head in the sand and say it is fine just shows you have never dealt with anything significant and are talking out of your azz.

Family Drs are glorified administrators who become middle men and do nothing but slow down the process to being properly diagnosed and treated. Need a test, go through them. Want to know the results of said tests, book an appointment with the family Dr. Everyone gets their cut of the pie.


Last edited by enviro61: 03-10-2011 at 08:19 AM.
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Old
03-10-2011, 09:00 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SensGal View Post
This is why we need to use other forms of "health" care. Like the health-phone line (telehealth). People constantly assume they are the "MOST" sick person there. Also then getting upset when they have to wait 8 hours in ER (not realizing that they will probably get more sick, waiting in the ER).

I don't think this problem will get better though. People are just getting more "me me me"/"drugs drugs drugs". People KNOW how to live a healthy life-style. Everyone knows eating good food, exercise and things like not smoking is GOOD for you. People know, the government needs to use other forms of health care (other than docs), to deal with the smaller issues. Like when someone has a cold and wants drugs. Why does a doc need to be bothered with a virus which won't be cured by anti-biotics?
Which is sad because a majority of healthcare money today goes to treating lifestyle related diseases

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03-10-2011, 09:12 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by enviro61 View Post
Let me tell you my story about gallbladder surgery since I just had it out on January 19, 2011. I first went in with pains in June 2010. 8 months and that is only because I took matters into my own hands and gae up waiting for 'the system' to get it done, otherwise I would still be waiting for my next appointment with the Gastrospecialist on April 25, 2011 at which time he would then make a referral for more testing and perhaps a surgeon at some point. I had so many attacks that when they pulled it out the surgeon said it was extremely scarred and I had other complications as a result of it taking so long.

I gave up on the system and decided to control it to the best of my own ability. No longer letting my family Dr. book appointments for me but rather giving me a referral and letting me book them myself. I learned that if you let your family Dr. book you ultrasounds, upper GIs and HIDAs they will not search for the best or quickest place but will make one call, two max and that is it. I spoke with a couple of people who had an attack and went into ER and got it out the next day (yeah the system is that brutually inconsistent and the squeaky wheel always gets the grease). I tried not to say the pain was a 10 when they asked because I didn't want to bump other people who were dealing with more severe issues but I learned you have to take charge for yourself because noone else will.

Eventually I just got so damn frustrated I asked them to send my results to a surgeon and who ran a HIDA scan which I booked and called repeatedly to get on cancellation lists. Eventually I get it done showing a 0% functioning gallbladder and they tell me 4 more months till surgery. Fek that I say and call every surgeon at every hospital within 4 hrs away. I find one and get it done in 2 weeks for a total elapsed time of 8 months and would have been well over a year if I didn't take charge.

Don't get me going on my mother's cancer and her loss of life. Yeah our system is great if you compare it to the worst out there but to bury your head in the sand and say it is fine just shows you have never dealt with anything significant and are talking out of your azz.

Family Drs are glorified administrators who become middle men and do nothing but slow down the process to being properly diagnosed and treated. Need a test, go through them. Want to know the results of said tests, book an appointment with the family Dr. Everyone gets their cut of the pie.
While the health care is not perfect and yes its has its flaws at the same time its not even close to the worst out there and to say is good if you compare it to the worse is 100% false.Its a good system far better then some people give it credit for and its not even close to eeing a ad system.

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Old
03-10-2011, 09:16 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
While the health care is not perfect and yes its has its flaws at the same time its not even close to the worst out there and to say is good if you compare it to the worse is 100% false.Its a good system far better then some people give it credit for and its not even close to eeing a ad system.
That's your opinion, what have you based it upon. Share with me your experiences.

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03-10-2011, 09:21 AM
  #109
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Don't get me going on my mother's cancer and her loss of life. Yeah our system is great if you compare it to the worst out there but to bury your head in the sand and say it is fine just shows you have never dealt with anything significant and are talking out of your azz.
Sorry that your mother and you went through that. Cancer patients need timely and current treatment, and I imagine that sometimes you'd feel like you're fighting a bureaucracy as well as the disease.

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03-10-2011, 09:51 AM
  #110
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Sorry that your mother and you went through that. Cancer patients need timely and current treatment, and I imagine that sometimes you'd feel like you're fighting a bureaucracy as well as the disease.
If there are lessons to be learned it is this, do not expect anyone else to act as your advocate. Do not place your trust in 'the system' to figure it out. Noone knows your body as well as you do and if you think there is an issue do not relent until you are satisfied if ever.

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03-10-2011, 10:46 AM
  #111
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That's your opinion, what have you based it upon. Share with me your experiences.
I have had many cases wee have needed treatment and i did get the care i needed was fast no but i did get the care.I have sad over and over the system has its flaws and yes major fixes are needed but its not the worse not even close to beeing the worse.


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03-10-2011, 10:47 AM
  #112
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Over 50 years I went in and out of hospitals for relatively small injuries or illness I or my kids had. I saw both of them born in the Civic Hospital and all the treatment we received was always pretty darn good, no complaints. I don't have a lot of knowledge about all the other treatments you might get in the hospital but I can only speak for my experience. I did learn a lot about cancer recently though.

I aways kept in shape and had a healthy lifestyle but next thing I knew Cancer came out of nowhere. I got brain cancer and there is no known cause for it. I've had brain surgery, radiation and chemo and the doctors and staff have all been wonderful. The treatment I've received, and am still going through, has been 1st rate.

Obviously I'm a little interested in what kind of cancer treatment I was getting and I would like to know if I'm getting as good as it gets, and there isn't any better. You might haveta travel and look for some experimental treatment but if there is any treatment available that has some value it is under testing now. There are statistics readily available with regard as to what country, and what kind of cancer is being treated, and where the different countries fit in the ratings.

If the Canadian medical treatment for Cancer is as good as it is I don't imagine all other medical treatment is taking a back seat. I'm also pretty pleased with the cost of my treatment, although the gas prices to drive to and from the treatment could be better


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Old
03-10-2011, 12:32 PM
  #113
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Over 50 years I went in and out of hospitals for relatively small injuries or illness I or my kids had. I saw both of them born in the Civic Hospital and all the treatment we received was always pretty darn good, no complaints. I don't have a lot of knowledge about all the other treatments you might get in the hospital but I can only speak for my experience. I did learn a lot about cancer recently though.

I aways kept in shape and had a healthy lifestyle but next thing I knew Cancer came out of nowhere. I got brain cancer and there is no known cause for it. I've had brain surgery, radiation and chemo and the doctors and staff have all been wonderful. The treatment I've received, and am still going through, has been 1st rate.

Obviously I'm a little interested in what kind of cancer treatment I was getting and I would like to know if I'm getting as good as it gets, and there isn't any better. You might haveta travel and look for some experimental treatment but if there is any treatment available that has some value it is under testing now. There are statistics readily available with regard as to what country, and what kind of cancer is being treated, and where the different countries fit in the ratings.

If the Canadian medical treatment for Cancer is as good as it is I don't imagine all other medical treatment is taking a back seat. I'm also pretty pleased with the cost of my treatment, although the gas prices to drive to and from the treatment could be better
Hope you have a speedy recovery and overcome your illness. How did you find the family Dr and initial diagnosis? Was that up to par or were there things in hindsight that could have and should have been done differently. With cancer, I find once you are in the system, they know what it is etc. they move pretty quick on it. Unfortunately once it is very advanced, you have new Drs and nurses every other day and keeping them all informed and brought up to speed can be a challenge.

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03-10-2011, 12:46 PM
  #114
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Don't get me wrong i fee for you and what did happen is wrong and yes i have had some bad experences such as waiting a year for gall bladder surgery.My point is the system the way its set up is good now the time people get the treatment etc that is no question the big issue.

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03-10-2011, 01:29 PM
  #115
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Hope you have a speedy recovery and overcome your illness. How did you find the family Dr and initial diagnosis? Was that up to par or were there things in hindsight that could have and should have been done differently. With cancer, I find once you are in the system, they know what it is etc. they move pretty quick on it. Unfortunately once it is very advanced, you have new Drs and nurses every other day and keeping them all informed and brought up to speed can be a challenge.
I only saw the family Dr every year for a quick check-up and then I was off for another year. Always healthy and good to go, there was no way he could have seen the brain cancer coming. The symptoms that something was wrong was immediate and I went off to the emergency. I had an MRI that night and was admitted. It all happened so fast. In my case, there's nothing the Dr or I could have done differently.

In the Hospital I was seeing different nurses and some Dr's every day. The surgeon however was just the one. After I was off to be treated at the Cancer centre it was just one Dr for the radiation and one as my oncologist and the oncologist will be the only one.

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03-10-2011, 05:49 PM
  #116
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The quality is better, the US does the vast majority of medical research through its universities, therefore cutting edge treatments are more readily available. They also have far more tools at their disposal. Also, our doctors are chronically underplayed for what they do, many talented doctors go to the US.

The quality is definitely better. I am not saying their system is the solution, but don't try and spread this myth that it is even fathomable that our system has an equal quality. That is simply impossible and ridiculous.
Funny thing is, its not actually true.

When it comes to specialists, many docs from the states come to Canada.

They do get paid less, but they can do more in Canada.

I work in a hospital, with 2 of the top 5 pediatric cardiovascular surgeons in the WORLD. Both from the states, chose to come to canada to work. The reason why... because they are able to do more research. Many of surgeries they do on people, are not 100% a cure for something, and in the States, if its not a cure, often people can't afford to do it. So these two surgeons have developed and almost perfected surgeries that are not as frequently done in the US.

And I do agree that the quality may be better IF (and only IF) you have the money. If you don't have the money, or have great insurance. They quality in the states falls drastically.

And frankly, someone shouldn't receive bad health care because they work a factory job to make ends meet.

So yeah, many family docs go to the states for the money, but research done in Canada is actually pretty good. And docs are allowed to do more here, simply because everyone gets the same care, not just those who can afford it.

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03-10-2011, 05:57 PM
  #117
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That's your opinion, what have you based it upon. Share with me your experiences.
I've constantly had great experiences. I've never had an issue going to emerge or what not. None of my family has ever had issues either. My dad fell off a ladder a few years ago, and I've never seen such amazing care in my life. And my family lived in the states for a while, when I was little, and my mom says its the worst care she's ever seen. No one would even see her or the kids, simply because my parents were not making good money. I was supposed to be born in the states, but my parents drove 18 hours back to Canada when my mom went into early labour, simply so she could ensure I was going to be ok, and not bankrupt my family.

I do agree, that there are some places in Europe that have better health care, and thats because of where they allocate the money. They have better triage, they have better public health care, and they have better incentives. For example, in Milan they gave nurses/docs a bonus for good hand hygiene. They ended up cutting back their hospital acquired infections by about 65%. So they saved HUGE! Not saying that nurses should get bonuses for doing their job. But thats simply an example.

As well as some countries having doc's aids to help with things. So they can deal with little things, while the docs take all serious issues.

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03-10-2011, 06:02 PM
  #118
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UN Declaration of Human Rights Article 25:

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Kind of scary how capitalist the US has gotten when this basic and essential human right can only be achieved by paying for it.

Just my 2 cents... (no pun intended)

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03-10-2011, 06:30 PM
  #119
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Funny thing is, its not actually true.

When it comes to specialists, many docs from the states come to Canada.

They do get paid less, but they can do more in Canada.

I work in a hospital, with 2 of the top 5 pediatric cardiovascular surgeons in the WORLD. Both from the states, chose to come to canada to work. The reason why... because they are able to do more research. Many of surgeries they do on people, are not 100% a cure for something, and in the States, if its not a cure, often people can't afford to do it. So these two surgeons have developed and almost perfected surgeries that are not as frequently done in the US.

And I do agree that the quality may be better IF (and only IF) you have the money. If you don't have the money, or have great insurance. They quality in the states falls drastically.

And frankly, someone shouldn't receive bad health care because they work a factory job to make ends meet.

So yeah, many family docs go to the states for the money, but research done in Canada is actually pretty good. And docs are allowed to do more here, simply because everyone gets the same care, not just those who can afford it.

Do you realize that such premium jobs offered by walmart and cosco give great health insurance? All you do here is perpetuate a myth that the average American does not have coverage, which is totally false.

And no, their hospitals are drastically better maintained and operated, I get the feeling you live in a cave. Canadian politicians and citizens don't regularly travel to the US for operations because we have better surgeons and technology.

You probably also believe that Cuba gives great health care to it's citizens.

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03-10-2011, 06:39 PM
  #120
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Do you realize that such premium jobs offered by walmart and cosco give great health insurance? All you do here is perpetuate a myth that the average American does not have coverage, which is totally false.

And no, their hospitals are drastically better maintained and operated, I get the feeling you live in a cave. Canadian politicians and citizens don't regularly travel to the US for operations because we have better surgeons and technology.

You probably also believe that Cuba gives great health care to it's citizens.
Its really not true to say all avg americans have health care as that is not true in any way do alot have insurance yes but there is aslo alot that don't..As for american hospitals are better kept up as a rule yes that is true part of the reason is the money hospitals get from insurance companys etc the other reason is there is less of a demand on them as there are in canada because as said before you don't have a right to care in the states in canada you do.

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03-10-2011, 07:11 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by blahblah3 View Post
Do you realize that such premium jobs offered by walmart and cosco give great health insurance? All you do here is perpetuate a myth that the average American does not have coverage, which is totally false.

And no, their hospitals are drastically better maintained and operated, I get the feeling you live in a cave. Canadian politicians and citizens don't regularly travel to the US for operations because we have better surgeons and technology.

You probably also believe that Cuba gives great health care to it's citizens.
right on the money bro. I'm not about to buy any of the garbage that health care professionals and doctors will try to feed me on the subject.

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03-10-2011, 07:20 PM
  #122
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Do you realize that such premium jobs offered by walmart and cosco give great health insurance? All you do here is perpetuate a myth that the average American does not have coverage, which is totally false.

And no, their hospitals are drastically better maintained and operated, I get the feeling you live in a cave. Canadian politicians and citizens don't regularly travel to the US for operations because we have better surgeons and technology.

You probably also believe that Cuba gives great health care to it's citizens.
Are you kidding me? This is either a troll job or someone so partisan that when someone says there's clouds in the sky he'll go: "no, there are not - the sky is blue".

You probably also believe the earth is 6000 years old STRAW MAN!

This is without getting into the rest of the post where you just make stuff up to support your position.

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03-10-2011, 07:27 PM
  #123
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Are you kidding me? This is either a troll job or someone so partisan that when someone says there's clouds in the sky he'll go: "no, there are not - the sky is blue".

You probably also believe the earth is 6000 years old STRAW MAN!

This is without getting into the rest of the post where you just make stuff up to support your position.
I am not sure what is difficult for you to grasp here. Basic jobs in the US have health coverage, 85% of Americans have access to the greatest health care the world can offer, and Canadian politicians would agree with me. Reference Danny Williams.

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03-10-2011, 08:02 PM
  #124
ShotDownCrosby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah3 View Post
Do you realize that such premium jobs offered by walmart and cosco give great health insurance? All you do here is perpetuate a myth that the average American does not have coverage, which is totally false.

And no, their hospitals are drastically better maintained and operated, I get the feeling you live in a cave. Canadian politicians and citizens don't regularly travel to the US for operations because we have better surgeons and technology.

You probably also believe that Cuba gives great health care to it's citizens.
What I'm saying is EVEN decent health coverage in the states, still doesn't cover as much as it does in Canada.

I have many friends who live in the states. My one good friend just had a baby, and not including her prenatal care, the labour itself cost about $4000. That's a good chunk of money. She has good health care as well, considering she works in the health care system.

As far as hospitals being better maintained. Thats not entirely true. Some are, yes. Some are not.

And a huge reason people go to the states (who have money) is because they can get it now and on their own schedule.

I work in health care, and I've probably been less impressed with Canadian health care system as I go about it, but I've also worked in the states. To say I don't understand health care, is ridiculous. I get the differences, and see the differences. Maybe its simply where I work that is extra ordinary right now, but the care that is given at the hospital I work at, versus the hospital I worked at in the states, is incredibly better run, with incredibly better care (and stats for mortality/morbidity).

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03-10-2011, 08:16 PM
  #125
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My buddy who is self employed in the States and makes enough money but opts not to have insurance told me of his recent experience. He needed to have something removed from his leg and to do so he looked up several Doctors on Yelp and actually priced shopped the operation. He told them he was going to pay cash and just bartered the price and researched the Dr. Kinda funn

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