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Kings vs. Blue Jackets - 03/11/11 - POSTGAME THOUGHTS & TIDBITS

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:05 PM
  #51
William H Bonney
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
How sweet was that backdoor play to Johnson on the first PP? Imagine if the Kings used that play all season with Johnson and Doughty.

Hopefully they will get more practice with it before the playoffs and get the PP going.
It was beautiful and the sweet thing about it is that it simply opens up options. If a d-man shoots in for the backdoor play and isn't noticed? You get stuff like tonight. If the PK catches on and has to collapse down it opens up a guy in the slot or the point shot.

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03-11-2011, 09:06 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
To be fair, Westgarth didn't play against Detroit.
I wasn't referring to the Kings. Murray has actually been pretty not bad with picking and choosing Westy for certain games. Other teams dress theirs against the Wings though and the Wings have gone how many seasons without one? They realize what the rest of the league does not. An enforcer the far majority of the time limits offensive and defensive options.

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03-11-2011, 09:06 PM
  #53
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So many exciting things from this game. The prospect of second place being within reach if we continue on our course, Kopitar officially being back on a greater than point-per-game pace, Doughty's game rebounding and being within 5 points of Johnson with 6 less games played, Williams' big game and his overall production on the season being just what the club needed, two solid goaltending options, my brain just exploded...

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
I know this is an A B discussion so excuse my intrusion.

I will only state that if Westgarth did not fight, he would never play a single game in the NHL and possibly AHL.

if Clifford did not fight, he would still be in the NHL.

Fighting adds a small component to Clifford's game that makes him more attractive. It's like a hot chic with a nice personality that can also cook.

Westgarth's entire merit is based on fighting. That's like an ugly chic whose only worth is...well, you get the point.
I agree somewhat but again, they are players who are given two entirely different responsibilities, amounts of ice time, direction and have two entirely different levels of expectation.

Again Westgarths job seems to be what is being overlooked. He is like a goalie, he is supposed to be used as an enforcer and is given 2mins per game as a rookie to go out and try to make something happen. Making it all the more difficult for him to bring any other skills that he might possibly have to the table.

Give Clifford two mins a game and he would also be underwhelming, thank goodness that he has been given the time needed to develop so far and he has absolutely seized that time and opportunity and made the most of it.

Two mins per game (a little more) makes it difficult but Westgarths stats are pretty solid for this being his rookie year. I contend that it appears that TM is a large part of the problem with Westgarth but will add that he is better than Ivanans during his first year and I see improvement.

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03-11-2011, 09:07 PM
  #55
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Old
03-11-2011, 09:08 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad View Post
...so, what's your take on this whole Westy - Cliffy thing?
Murray sucks.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
NHL.com has a column for regulation wins now. Makes it much easier to see where everyone falls and why.
Yeah I'm liking the ROW column. It does add another column to an already messy standings, but it helps

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03-11-2011, 09:08 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
It was beautiful and the sweet thing about it is that it simply opens up options. If a d-man shoots in for the backdoor play and isn't noticed? You get stuff like tonight. If the PK catches on and has to collapse down it opens up a guy in the slot or the point shot.
Henceforth why it is critical for Murray to key in and elevate the topic of movement and creativity on the PP. Quick passes, quick shots, feet moving. The Kings got away from it a little in the second period and it's something that has to constantly be pounded in their head. That is how Murray can kill the bad habits he instilled

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:09 PM
  #59
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WTF?

It was a conspiracy to lure me of the boards and I bought it.

Reffing was almost as awful as the commentators.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:09 PM
  #60
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HELL YES! 2 POINTS! 5th Place! Kopitar hat trick! Production from Penner! Man I am stoked! Just what the doctor ordered! Onto the next game, it is time we get revenge against the Stars! GO KINGS!
WILL BE IN ATTENDANCE!!

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:10 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Well, until I hear Bob and Jim call it, the game hasn't even started yet.

But, fair enough...

...so, what's your take on this whole Westy - Cliffy thing?
Ah I probably shouldn't bite. You're drawing me into this conversation. Honestly I think Clifford is better at picking his time to fight, where Westy always seems to fight when it doesn't matter. I find the team gets a bigger boost from Cliffy because of this. I would also play Richie over Westy any day, but I love Richie's hustle.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:11 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by KingsKnight View Post
Can we stop talking about Westy and Clifford at least for a day and just enjoy a well earned win? You may or may not like TM's decision, but you can't argue with a 4-2 win.
Who's not enjoying the win? I'm elated with the win. Westgarth didn't directly affect the game in a negative manner. That said, we'd have been better off having a well-rounded guy like Richie dressed in his role but it doesn't matter, we won.

It's just games like tonight that illustrate that no one on other team's starts shivering in their boots when they see Westgarth dressed. It didn't stop them from taking runs at Doughty and it won't in the future. There's nothing wrong with debating the goon ideology of our head coach.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:13 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I agree somewhat but again, they are players who are given two entirely different responsibilities, amounts of ice time, direction and have two entirely different levels of expectation.

Again Westgarths job seems to be what is being overlooked. He is like a goalie, he is supposed to be used as an enforcer and is given 2mins per game as a rookie to go out and try to make something happen. Making it all the more difficult for him to bring any other skills that he might possibly have to the table.

Give Clifford two mins a game and he would also be underwhelming, thank goodness that he has been given the time needed to develop so far and he has absolutely seized that time and opportunity and made the most of it.

Two mins per game (a little more) makes it difficult but Westgarths stats are pretty solid for this being his rookie year. I contend that it appears that TM is a large part of the problem with Westgarth but will add that he is better than Ivanans during his first year and I see improvement.
This assumes Westgarth would do anything with his minutes.

His is slow, has no first step, is average on defense and has zero offensive upside except for surprisingly being an above average passer for a pylon.

So, what would he do with the minutes except waste them. Not much. Clifford has earned his minutes. The boy can skate, pass, shoot, hit and has a tough fighting component as well. If Clifford had Westgarth's skill set, he wouldn't be Kyle Clifford and he would get 4-9 minutes per game as well.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:15 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
Who's not enjoying the win? I'm elated with the win. Westgarth didn't directly affect the game in a negative manner. That said, we'd have been better off having a well-rounded guy like Richie dressed in his role but it doesn't matter, we won.

It's just games like tonight that illustrate that no one on other team's starts shivering in their boots when they see Westgarth dressed. It didn't stop them from taking runs at Doughty and it won't in the future. There's nothing wrong with debating the goon ideology of our head coach.
Agreed. I just think we gravitate instantly towards a negative after a win. It would be nice to just talk about what went well and save the negative conversation for tomorrow. But it doesn't really matter I guess. That's what the boards are for.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:16 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Ok, I'll bite.

Who is Detroit's enforcer?
You gotta help me out here zad, in regards to what? I don't understand where the question is coming from.

If your asking who is Detroit's enforcer in the context of my point that every team will have an enforcer then I will have to say the wings use three different cliffords to do their enforcing more than simply one.

That said, if you take a look around the league or heck, even in our division you will find most every team has an enforcer.

Maybe if Simmonds and Brown played a more physically intimidating game or a game that is more similar to Cliffords we would have a team that is closer to Detroit but they don't and until we have a team that has more Cliffords on it we will need to have our nuc as well.

I would ask you this, who of the Wings checking line types don't drop the gloves with anyone at any time?

Which of them won't fight at the drop of a hat? Cleary? Nope, he's a gamer?

My point is that give us more Cliffords and we won't have even the slightest need for a single Westgarth.

I come from the old days of the game so the idea of the game not having or needing heavies is a difficult thing for me to comprehend but like I have said in other posts on the subject, regardless of the need Westgarth is a rookie and his individual stats aren't bad for a guy who is given a little more than 2mins a game and told to go out and try and chance the momentum.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:16 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by KingsKnight View Post
Agreed. I just think we gravitate instantly towards a negative after a win. It would be nice to just talk about what went well and save the negative conversation for tomorrow. But it doesn't really matter I guess. That's what the boards are for.
We are being very positive. Westgarth positively sucks and Clifford is the bee's knees.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:17 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by KingsKnight View Post
Agreed. I just think we gravitate instantly towards a negative after a win. It would be nice to just talk about what went well and save the negative conversation for tomorrow. But it doesn't really matter I guess. That's what the boards are for.
Well, I agree but that also happens because the good things don't really generate a ton of debate. If I say things like "Kopitar was awesome!" there's not much else to add. We all know he was great and agree.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:19 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
You gotta help me out here zad, in regards to what? I don't understand where the question is coming from.

If your asking who is Detroit's enforcer in the context of my point that every team will have an enforcer then I will have to say the wings use three different cliffords to do their enforcing more than simply one.

That said, if you take a look around the league or heck, even in our division you will find most every team has an enforcer.

Maybe if Simmonds and Brown played a more physically intimidating game or a game that is more similar to Cliffords we would have a team that is closer to Detroit but they don't and until we have a team that has more Cliffords on it we will need to have our nuc as well.

I would ask you this, who of the Wings checking line types don't drop the gloves with anyone at any time?

Which of them won't fight at the drop of a hat? Cleary? Nope, he's a gamer?

My point is that give us more Cliffords and we won't have even the slightest need for a single Westgarth.

I come from the old days of the game so the idea of the game not having or needing heavies is a difficult thing for me to comprehend but like I have said in other posts on the subject, regardless of the need Westgarth is a rookie and his individual stats aren't bad for a guy who is given a little more than 2mins a game and told to go out and try and chance the momentum.
By enforcer, I referred to the Heavy. That Ivanans, Westgarth type. A couple of more Cliffords on the Kings? Nobody would want to play us. We would have to call it the 187 line.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:20 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Henceforth why it is critical for Murray to key in and elevate the topic of movement and creativity on the PP. Quick passes, quick shots, feet moving. The Kings got away from it a little in the second period and it's something that has to constantly be pounded in their head. That is how Murray can kill the bad habits he instilled
Yep. It'll take some time, if they actually stick with it, to get rid of the stationary habits they preached all year. I just hope they're now giving Doughty, Johnson, and Kopitar the green light to go all out. We've been winning in spite of the PP. It'll be great when it starts contributing again.

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03-11-2011, 09:21 PM
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I love how on the last goal, Williams and Penner play it cool in a celebration, then Kopi gives them both a big hugh, then as they go to skate away, Doughty comes in with a big jumping hugging celebration.

I also love how i could have potted Brassards chance in the last couple of minutes
I'm not so sure he missed it on his own. On my DVR, it looks alot like Mitchell saved that goal.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:21 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
This assumes Westgarth would do anything with his minutes.

His is slow, has no first step, is average on defense and has zero offensive upside except for surprisingly being an above average passer for a pylon.

So, what would he do with the minutes except waste them. Not much. Clifford has earned his minutes. The boy can skate, pass, shoot, hit and has a tough fighting component as well. If Clifford had Westgarth's skill set, he wouldn't be Kyle Clifford and he would get 4-9 minutes per game as well.
But I have to right back at you zad and say that who's to say that he wouldn't? He is given two minutes a game and even then doesn't play every game, how can we say that he wouldn't continue to develop his game given the opportunity. He was significantly better in the AHL then he has been in the NHL but even with his limited time I have seen minor improvement.

He isn't slow but he isn't the guy that I want trying to carry the puck out of his own end anyways.

It just isn't fair in my opinion to argue that he wouldn't be able to do something without being able to provide any facts to support the statement.

It is your opinion and I believe probably allot of other peoples opinion as well that he wouldn't be able to do anything with more time but it is my opinion he would. In the end it is all only opinion so there can be no absolute.


Also, GREAT WIN and I agree that if we want to debate the whole enforcer subject in the NHL then we absolutely should start a thread and not ruin a tidbits with it. I for one apologize for my part in this.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:21 PM
  #72
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We are being very positive. Westgarth positively sucks and Clifford is the bee's knees.
Ok ok, agreed.

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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
Well, I agree but that also happens because the good things don't really generate a ton of debate. If I say things like "Kopitar was awesome!" there's not much else to add. We all know he was great and agree.
Kopi got lucky...three times

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:21 PM
  #73
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So, Mods, can I start another GDT now? Please?

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03-11-2011, 09:22 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I agree somewhat but again, they are players who are given two entirely different responsibilities, amounts of ice time, direction and have two entirely different levels of expectation.

Again Westgarths job seems to be what is being overlooked. He is like a goalie, he is supposed to be used as an enforcer and is given 2mins per game as a rookie to go out and try to make something happen. Making it all the more difficult for him to bring any other skills that he might possibly have to the table.

Give Clifford two mins a game and he would also be underwhelming, thank goodness that he has been given the time needed to develop so far and he has absolutely seized that time and opportunity and made the most of it.

Two mins per game (a little more) makes it difficult but Westgarths stats are pretty solid for this being his rookie year. I contend that it appears that TM is a large part of the problem with Westgarth but will add that he is better than Ivanans during his first year and I see improvement.
I hate going all JT on you, but Westgarth gets 5:27 per game and Clifford gets 9:17. Not as much of a difference as you make it sound. Murray does a good job protecting Westgarth from himself by limiting his exposure. I just don't see Westgarth ever being good enough to get 9 minutes per game, he just can't keep up with the play. He's probably awesome in the AHL with the slower game, but I don't see him ever getting NHL speed.

Richardson with 8 minutes > Westgarth with 5 minutes.

The kings actually have the potential to ice four solid lines and Murray just won't keep it going. He has to tinker.

If Murray switches up the top line to "balance" the scoring, I will flip out. That is what scares me. He will start messing with the top three lines again.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:23 PM
  #75
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So, Mods, can I start another GDT now? Please?
Can we also start another FGOTG thread...please??

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