HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Notices

Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-13-2011, 01:45 PM
  #76
Huis Clos*
Creamy Hamstrings
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ballarado
Country: United States
Posts: 6,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
How quickly times, and therefore grades, change.

Deadline's coming up. I imagine Sherman's very job might be on the line depending on what he does (or does not) do.

He's already given up two prospects, one trade worked out (O'Byrne), the other of course has been just about the worst I can remember the Avs ever doing. Seriously, I think only the Vrbata-for-Battaglia swap ranks worse than this one. Hopefully Sherman can parlay this fail for a valuable asset, much like Lacroix packaged a 1st round bust and Battaglia's useless carcass for Konowalchuk.
Cohen remains incredibly overrated here.

Huis Clos* is offline  
Old
02-13-2011, 02:40 PM
  #77
54toscore
Registered User
 
54toscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 709
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
But at the same time we will be quite unattractive to other UFAs (perhaps ours too). Meaning we have to overpay to get them to come to Denver.
Maybe. When I think of teams that have to overpay, I think of Edmonton (because players don't like living there for whatever reason), the Islanders (because the perception is that their organization is run horribly), or Florida (because they haven't made the playoffs in forever).

I think free agents still would find Colorado an attractive place to play. Denver a good city, the level of media exposure is about right, the organization is loyal (both to current players and past ones--look at how many former Avs are in coaching or management positions). And let's face it, if you look at the list of injuries for the Avs this year, it's easy to rationalize why they had trouble this season.

Because a lot of contract negotiations are done by "comparables," that is, comparing stats and value to the team to other NHL players, if people like Galiardi, Jones, and Fleischmann had continued their prior scoring pace, then it would have been really tough to get them under contract at a cap-friendly rate. Same deal with Stewart and Duchene for 2012-2013. $6 mln/year for each would not have been out of the question.

Take for example, a team like Columbus. They had one successful season and next thing you know Derick Brassard is making $3.2 mln/year for four years. Or take Edmonton's Stanley Cup run: Horcoff and a lot of other people got ridiculous dollars soon after.

54toscore is offline  
Old
02-13-2011, 10:44 PM
  #78
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 10,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hek View Post
Cohen remains incredibly overrated here.
Where did I even "rate" Cohen? You can argue the value of Cohen all you want, in the end he likely won't be retained and so that prospect was dealt for nothing. Trade fail no matter how you look at it.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-14-2011, 10:51 AM
  #79
mustela
Registered User
 
mustela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: Sweden
Posts: 279
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
How quickly times, and therefore grades, change.

Deadline's coming up. I imagine Sherman's very job might be on the line depending on what he does (or does not) do.

He's already given up two prospects, one trade worked out (O'Byrne), the other of course has been just about the worst I can remember the Avs ever doing. Seriously, I think only the Vrbata-for-Battaglia swap ranks worse than this one. Hopefully Sherman can parlay this fail for a valuable asset, much like Lacroix packaged a 1st round bust and Battaglia's useless carcass for Konowalchuk.
you really think one trade in which the avs lost one marginal prospect who they have been evaluating since 2007 will cost sherman his job? cohen has yet to even play in the nhl since the trade, you cant say thats the worst trade the avs have ever done.

lets see, since sherman has come in he's dropped granato, arnason, clark, salei, tucker, durno, smyth, hannan, wolski, raycroft, etc

and they've been replaced by (last years jack adams finalist which people seem to forget) sacco, duchene, o'reilly, winnik, quincey, fleischmann, mueller, porter, anderson, forsberg, and prospects hishon, elliot, barrie, pickard, etc.

this season is turning out to be very disappointing but anyone who cannot see that this team is exponentially better than it was when sherman took over is not looking at the big picture.

mustela is offline  
Old
02-14-2011, 11:15 AM
  #80
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 10,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldawg View Post
you really think one trade in which the avs lost one marginal prospect who they have been evaluating since 2007 will cost sherman his job? cohen has yet to even play in the nhl since the trade, you cant say thats the worst trade the avs have ever done.

lets see, since sherman has come in he's dropped granato, arnason, clark, salei, tucker, durno, smyth, hannan, wolski, raycroft, etc

and they've been replaced by (last years jack adams finalist which people seem to forget) sacco, duchene, o'reilly, winnik, quincey, fleischmann, mueller, porter, anderson, forsberg, and prospects hishon, elliot, barrie, pickard, etc.

this season is turning out to be very disappointing but anyone who cannot see that this team is exponentially better than it was when sherman took over is not looking at the big picture.
Not saying Sherman should be fired, mind you, just saying I wouldn't put it past Lacroix for doing something impetuous and trying once again to woo Roy. And you won't find a bigger Sacco supporter on these boards than me.

But I stand by my statement about the trade. Again, not ranking it on Cohen's relative value (or lack thereof), but rather the return. Hunwick has been a complete and utter disaster since coming over, much like Battaglia was. Overall most would argue the Regehr-for-Fleury deal was probably the worst Avs trade ever, but at the VERY least the Avs got a worthwhile rental out of it.

Sherman IMO has done an exemplary job. But no bones about it, the Hunwick trade is his first major ****-up.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-16-2011, 06:59 PM
  #81
Freudian
Patty likes beef
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 28,427
vCash: 50
I'm starting to think not re-signing Hendricks may be a bigger mistake than the Hunwick trade.

We have no one that energizes the team. In theory McLeod should be that kind of guy but he more often than not sucks the energy out with a penalty.

If the only reason Avs weren't resigning him was because he wanted a one-way contract, then . He as much as any bottom six player on the Avs deserved one.

Freudian is offline  
Old
02-17-2011, 12:30 AM
  #82
R S
Renegade Stylings
 
R S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,600
vCash: 4250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I'm starting to think not re-signing Hendricks may be a bigger mistake than the Hunwick trade.

We have no one that energizes the team. In theory McLeod should be that kind of guy but he more often than not sucks the energy out with a penalty.

If the only reason Avs weren't resigning him was because he wanted a one-way contract, then . He as much as any bottom six player on the Avs deserved one.
The Avs have always been picky about who they keep as energy/role players and who they let go. Many times I don't like their decisions either.

A few years ago they let Guite go, I thought he filled his role to a tee and was a great fit for us.

Last year Hendricks was the same way.

Lappy was in a similar situation before he left too.

R S is offline  
Old
02-19-2011, 11:50 AM
  #83
Helton4Hall
Internet Charlatan
 
Helton4Hall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Storming the Gates
Country: South Korea
Posts: 18,387
vCash: 69
Ladies and Gentlemen

The legacy of Greg Sherman has been solidified over the last year. Who will he be remembered as? The genius who re-built the Avs, or the second coming of Mad Mike Millbury??? I'm serious. He has made a lot of boom-or-bust trades, and he could either destroy or build this franchise. Either one is a real possibility.

Did he give up Ryan Smyth for a quality d-man in KQ, or an NHL turnstile?

Did he give up a quality player in Colby Cohen for Matt Hunwick, or was it a lateral move?

Did he give up a good prospect in Bournival for a bottom pairing guy in O'Byrne, or a quality defenseman?

Did he give up a #1 in Anderson for a career backup?

Did he sell the farm for an average D-man, or a superstar?

Did he keep Sacco around too long?

Any one of these moves could still come back to blow up in our faces. The jury on Sherman is very much still out.

Helton4Hall is offline  
Old
02-19-2011, 11:56 AM
  #84
S E P H
@Krzysztof_WHL
 
S E P H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Avs Country!
Country: Poland
Posts: 4,095
vCash: 50
I still see Sherman doing business before the deadline. A lot of these question can be slighly answered after Feb 28. I believe he's still trying to get a goaler.

S E P H is online now  
Old
02-19-2011, 12:31 PM
  #85
R S
Renegade Stylings
 
R S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,600
vCash: 4250
I will give the guy credit for one thing, having a massive pair of cajones jingling around down there.

R S is offline  
Old
02-19-2011, 12:35 PM
  #86
WarriorOfGandhi
Was saying Boo-urns
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Country: Scotland
Posts: 13,247
vCash: 142
Please explain to me how Anderson is a #1 goalie.

WarriorOfGandhi is offline  
Old
02-19-2011, 12:37 PM
  #87
Helton4Hall
Internet Charlatan
 
Helton4Hall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Storming the Gates
Country: South Korea
Posts: 18,387
vCash: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
Please explain to me how Anderson is a #1 goalie.
He could be in the future. He's certainly better than he has shown this year.

Helton4Hall is offline  
Old
02-19-2011, 12:43 PM
  #88
NWAvsFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailbait View Post
He could be in the future. He's certainly better than he has shown this year.
Like Stewie though he only showed it for stretches. Consistency is what differentiates players in this league. You just don't know what you have until a guy puts it up for years. That is one thing we have to give Stastny. Casper garbage aside he has given us the same thing pretty much every year he has been in the league. That has real value.

NWAvsFan is offline  
Old
02-24-2011, 12:27 PM
  #89
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 10,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailbait View Post
The legacy of Greg Sherman has been solidified over the last year. Who will he be remembered as? The genius who re-built the Avs, or the second coming of Mad Mike Millbury??? I'm serious. He has made a lot of boom-or-bust trades, and he could either destroy or build this franchise. Either one is a real possibility.

Did he give up Ryan Smyth for a quality d-man in KQ, or an NHL turnstile?

Did he give up a quality player in Colby Cohen for Matt Hunwick, or was it a lateral move?

Did he give up a good prospect in Bournival for a bottom pairing guy in O'Byrne, or a quality defenseman?

Did he give up a #1 in Anderson for a career backup?

Did he sell the farm for an average D-man, or a superstar?

Did he keep Sacco around too long?

Any one of these moves could still come back to blow up in our faces. The jury on Sherman is very much still out.
Nice summary.

Again, the Smyth trade was a salary dump, nothing more. Quincey is a capable, but very flawed defenseman, but the fact we got an actual player in the deal and not all crap (Preissing was definitely crap) is just a bonus. The Smyth signing was a mistake to begin with and Sherman did a good job of rectifying that mistake.

There's no way the Cohen-for-Hunwick deal could be lateral because Hunwick has actually made the team WORSE, while Cohen, whether he booms or busts, was not hurting the team. No, there's no silver lining here...this was a full on unmitigated FAIL, and Sherman needs to admit it, cut his losses, and move on. I maintain that I see what logic drove him to make the deal, but it still would have failed even if Quincey had remained healthy. I think he got a little cocky to be honest and swooped into a situation where Boston needed to shed salary but fast to make room for Marc Savard. He should have at the very least played hardball since Chiarelli was in no position to bargain. Kind of ironic Hunwick returned to Boston and took care of Savard's cap hit for the remainder of the season.

O'Byrne was (and still is despite his recent clutch-and-grab play of late) a solid pickup, and unfortunately cost us a guy who may yet turn out to be a good NHL player. In the end the team had too many talented, undersized players, so Bournival's loss in the long run will be minimal IMO, unless he wildly surpasses expectations and becomes a star in Montreal.

I'll save the Andy/Elliott trade for last.

I'm still willing to give GMGS the benefit of the doubt on the Johnson trade. I don't think EJ will be as complete a defender as we would like, but if he turns out to be the next Ed Jovanovski I'll be okay with that. The key is to build a defense right...I look to Vancouver, who doesn't really have a true #1 guy but a lot of very good defenders. I still think we could yet have a very good blueline corps...but was it worth the price? We'll see.

As for Sacco, I don't know at this point. Certainly someone should have sat our coach down to warn him that his approach wasn't working and he either better shape up or ship out. At the same time it's management's OWN fault and some really rotten luck that has left Sacco and the team in the position they're in. I won't cry if Sacco is fired anytime soon, but I still won't back such a move.

Okay, lastly, Andy/Elliott. This deal infuriates me like no other. Make no mistake, I still think there was some behind-the-scenes stuff we still don't know about and may never know about, but to leave this team with two career backups is worse than what Giguere tried to do with Andrew Raycroft. At least Raycroft at one time was a proven starter...Elliott has NEVER been that guy. Either he was arrogant/stupid enough to believe he'd found another diamond in the rough or this was a prelude to a second deal that got hung up or never materialized. Either way, he got caught with his pants down, and to leave the goaltending situation in such dire straits is, in my opinion, a fireable offense. Yes, I'm saying it now, I'd be perfectly okay with the team firing Greg Sherman right now.

Overall, he would have come away with a C had it not been for the Hunwick and Elliott deals, but those two trades bring his current mark all the way down to an F. Either get a real goalie, or sell whatever you can sell and write off this season. What's going on right now just smacks of indecision, and that, more than anything, is completely unacceptable.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-24-2011, 12:35 PM
  #90
KHaosActual
Registered User
 
KHaosActual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Country: Germany
Posts: 277
vCash: 500
Raycroft had two good seasons as a starter.
Elliott had one last year in Ottawa.
I know most people may write off seasons played in college but he had two good seasons in Wisconsin, with one of those years being chosen as a finalist for the Hobey Baker.
Goalie trades are always difficult, look back with the Roy trade, sending Thibault to Montreal, at the time, everyone was saying what a great young talent was sent to Montreal and nothing became of it.
I'd say give more than game before deciding the players worth.
Especially when the Avs as a whole are not playing as a team, they aren't playing for their coach, they aren't playing for themselves.

KHaosActual is offline  
Old
02-24-2011, 01:56 PM
  #91
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 10,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanofhockey98 View Post
I'd say give more than game before deciding the players worth.
Here's the thing, there isn't enough time to give Elliott games to acclimate himself. Again, get a PROVEN VETERAN GOALIE, or write the season off and sell. This is not the time for gambles.

If the deal for Elliott was to give us a backup for next season, fine. I'm okay with that, but I am not okay with this team going forward with a Boods/Elliott tandem for the remainder of the season and trying to sell us fans on trying to salvage this season. We're not that stupid.

Elliott's technique is more alarming than anything else. He plays goal like a timid cartoon mouse. Felix Potvin played more out of the net than this guy does.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-24-2011, 02:38 PM
  #92
dwkdnvr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 396
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post

If the deal for Elliott was to give us a backup for next season, fine. I'm okay with that, but I am not okay with this team going forward with a Boods/Elliott tandem for the remainder of the season and trying to sell us fans on trying to salvage this season. We're not that stupid.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I assumed that Elliot was for next year, to back up a UFA goalie that we'll pick up in the summer. I don't see Budaj backed by Elliot as being any worse in practice than Andy/Budaj would have been for the remainder of this season.

Now if we go into next year without a new UFA in net, THEN Sherman's head should be on a platter.

dwkdnvr is offline  
Old
02-24-2011, 02:54 PM
  #93
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 10,719
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwkdnvr View Post
Maybe I'm missing something, but I assumed that Elliot was for next year, to back up a UFA goalie that we'll pick up in the summer. I don't see Budaj backed by Elliot as being any worse in practice than Andy/Budaj would have been for the remainder of this season.

Now if we go into next year without a new UFA in net, THEN Sherman's head should be on a platter.
That's fine if they're strictly in "next year" mode. Thing is, I don't believe they are, and if they're not then going even one more game with Budaj/Elliott is just plain stupid. I'm not advocating they sell the farm for 5 minutes of Tomas Vokoun, just saying they need to either start divesting themselves of players who are moveable and do not factor into future plans or they need to man up and get a real goalie.

In short, **** or get off the pot.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-24-2011, 03:03 PM
  #94
NWAvsFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
That's fine if they're strictly in "next year" mode. Thing is, I don't believe they are, and if they're not then going even one more game with Budaj/Elliott is just plain stupid. I'm not advocating they sell the farm for 5 minutes of Tomas Vokoun, just saying they need to either start divesting themselves of players who are moveable and do not factor into future plans or they need to man up and get a real goalie.

In short, **** or get off the pot.
I also think were strictly in next year mode. This year is done as far as winning being the ultimate goal. We need to continue to evaluate pieces (boy I hope that includes Sacco at this point), integrate our new arrivals, and teach the kids. I don't equate that to "Tank" necessarily as we are all just joking. I don't expect to see any "win this year" trades but do think we should see a couple moves for players that don't fit our future plans. I hope that does not include Stastny unless someone wants to pay a ridiculous price for him (and I don't me silly I mean Kessel to Toronto stupid) but I do think it is time for Liles to move on.

NWAvsFan is offline  
Old
03-11-2011, 10:42 PM
  #95
PierresLongStick*
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Don't worry about it
Posts: 53
vCash: 500
Greg Sherman makes me want to give up on Colorado. Only team I've ever cared for and to see him destroy this promising team with his recent two trades is just painfull. Elliot has been nothing but garbage since coming to Colorado, he now has a GAA of over 4 and has yet to get a win, while Anderson is on fire in Ottawa. Also, trading away a ROOKIE defenseman who was having a standout year and a possible elite power forward in development, for a 3rd line checker and a defenseman who could end up being nothing more than a first overall bust... so mind boggling.

PierresLongStick* is offline  
Old
03-11-2011, 11:03 PM
  #96
chewey
dmitri
 
chewey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Near You!
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,836
vCash: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by PierresLongStick View Post
Greg Sherman makes me want to give up on Colorado. Only team I've ever cared for and to see him destroy this promising team with his recent two trades is just painfull.
Two trades define your fanship? Wow! Grow some balls princess!

Quote:
Elliot has been nothing but garbage since coming to Colorado, he now has a GAA of over 4 and has yet to get a win, while Anderson is on fire in Ottawa.
Okay, since some may disagree to Anderson quitting or not, teams win games; not goalies! Anderson play is also due to the fact that he is in the location that he is; its not as if he'd have a turn around here in Colorado from the way things were going.

Quote:
Also, trading away a ROOKIE defenseman who was having a standout year and a possible elite power forward in development, for a 3rd line checker and a defenseman who could end up being nothing more than a first overall bust... so mind boggling.
Right, that rookie Dman is safe from being a bust but Johnson isn't cause he's had more "points" right? This is a long term trade, if you are evaluating it 10 games after you will be dissapointed (which I guess you already are)..

chewey is offline  
Old
03-11-2011, 11:10 PM
  #97
shadow1
Registered User
 
shadow1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 11,252
vCash: 1210
Johnson is at least a top 30 defenseman in the NHL right now, so there's no way he's a "bust". Clearly better than Shattenkirk, that's for sure.

So far, I love the Greg Sherman moves, save for the Hunwick deal. I'm indifferent to the Anderson deal; I neither care that he's gone, nor how little the return is. Too many question marks about his consistency.

shadow1 is offline  
Old
03-12-2011, 11:28 AM
  #98
PierresLongStick*
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Don't worry about it
Posts: 53
vCash: 500
This is a long term trade, if you are evaluating it 10 games after you will be dissapointed (which I guess you already are)..[/QUOTE]

I see it as a much better long term trade for St. Louis. There are sooo many highly anticipated defenseman similar to Johnson. For example, Rostislav Klesla 10 years ago was a top prospect around the league and he hasn't come close to fulfilling his potential. On the other hand, so many teams around the league value a puck moving defenseman like shattenkirk. Oh, and he also has good leadership qualities as he captained this small school called Boston University last year. I'm not even gonna begin to list what a power forward like Stewart can bring to a team because I think even you can figure that out.

PierresLongStick* is offline  
Old
03-12-2011, 11:48 AM
  #99
Freudian
Patty likes beef
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 28,427
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by PierresLongStick View Post
I see it as a much better long term trade for St. Louis. There are sooo many highly anticipated defenseman similar to Johnson. For example, Rostislav Klesla 10 years ago was a top prospect around the league and he hasn't come close to fulfilling his potential. On the other hand, so many teams around the league value a puck moving defenseman like shattenkirk. Oh, and he also has good leadership qualities as he captained this small school called Boston University last year. I'm not even gonna begin to list what a power forward like Stewart can bring to a team because I think even you can figure that out.
I don't know how one could watch Avs and come to the conclusion that Shattenkirk has all this future potential and Johnson hasn't. It is very obvious which one has the edge in pretty much everything except playmaking.

I think Shattenkirk will be a fine PMD eventually and he will probably fix many of the glaring holes in the defensive end. But I simply don't see any comparison between them.

Freudian is offline  
Old
06-26-2011, 02:48 PM
  #100
Huis Clos*
Creamy Hamstrings
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ballarado
Country: United States
Posts: 6,020
vCash: 500
This thing needs updating.

Huis Clos* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.