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ATD 2011 Draft Thread VIII

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:40 PM
  #51
seventieslord
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Regina selects Murray Oliver, F

Oliver is generally known as a center, but I've discovered recently that he can play any forward position. The plan is for him to be center, but if a center we like falls to us, we reserve the right to make Oliver a LW on our two-way 3rd line.

Oliver is certainly not the best offensive center remaining, and he is certainly not the best defensive center remaining. But there is a decent case to be made, that he was the best overall center remaining.

In the 1963, 1964, and 1966 seasons, Oliver finished 7th, 9th, and 10th in points. More impressively (and more importantly), he was 7th, 3rd, and 7th in ESP these three seasons. In 1964, he trailed league-leading ES scorer Stan Mikita by just 5 ES Points.

He is often described as a good defensive player, and is one of the busiest PK forwards of all-time: Among all forwards with 500+ post-expansion games, he is 33rd in PK usage, having been on the ice for 41% of his team's PPGA. Of the 32 ahead of Oliver in this category, 16 are selected. Of the 16 selected, none had his offensive upside - few even come close.

Oliver will be a very strong ES producer from an ATD 3rd line, and is a very good 2nd PK unit center.

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:42 PM
  #52
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
More broadly: Why even talk about the defensive play of a Coffey, Housley or Gonchar? They are offensive defensemen and every great team can handle one of those, having others compensate defensively for them.
Because, we can't fully celebrate the full greatness of historical players without pointing out where other players are... lacking.

Gonchar should get credit for becoming better defensively over his career, while Housley really didn't.

Coffey absolutely should get credit for raising his defensive game in games that mattered - playoffs or Canada Cups - at least in his prime when he was still an outstanding skater.

I see you're playing Housley on your bottom pair, by the way. A wise choice. If I ever drafted Housley (and I never will, because he always goes higher than I could justify taking such a one-dimensional guy), I would use him as you are - bottom pairing and the majority of the PP.

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:44 PM
  #53
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The Langway and Housley comparison perfectly illustrates why that stat has basically zero value.

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:45 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
The Langway and Housley comparison perfectly illustrates why that stat has basically zero value.
I'll never forget the fact that Marek Malik was the +/- king in the NHL over like a 4 year span...

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03-12-2011, 06:46 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Larry Murphy at #7 is a big miss as well, IMO. Not that he was bad, but...
Larry clearly showes the flaws of this method - he accumulated a ton of points and played on at least two good teams. But he played against opponents' top lines (he was top-pairing defenceman on 2 two-times Stanley cup winners) and at least in Detroit he was on the top PK-unit with Lidstrom (till Chelios arrival in 1999).

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:46 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
Housley played for 21 years, nearly twice as long. So that 11% vs. Gonchar's 21% is a misleading gap. It's narrower than that if at all. Can you calculate Housley's first 10 seasons?
No problem. 13% from 1983-92.

On a year-to-year basis, the only question with Housley was whether he would be the fifth guy who filled in when a regular penalty killer got sent off or if he would be the sixth guy who almost never got on the ice while shorthanded.

TDMM, Boyle is at 31% from 2008 to 2010, and 7% before 2008.

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:47 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm not surprised Boyle is low, but I'm actually kind of surprised he's that low, to be honest.
Especially since he's first on his team this year, and only about 20 secs behind the leader the last two seasons.

One interesting aspect is though that this year, San Jose is 4th to last in minor penalties, and were also bottom third of the NHL in penalties two years ago. (Last year they were top 3rd, don't know how that happened.) But overall, over the last couple years San Jose has been a somewhat low penalized team, which means less minutes to eat up on the PK. Boyle has really blossomed these last few years defensively, so that could be why his % total is so low.

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:49 PM
  #58
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Great conversation here, guys. I've been refreshing it and reading it while I was researching for my pick (I was not the least bit prepared, thought I had a lot longer to go before my next selection - and was surprised to get a guy I passed over earlier; I thought for sure I chose Bob Nevin over Murray Oliver, and couldn't have both)

I've wanted to reply to all this so badly, but I didn't want to stick my nose in any annoy anyone who would have aptly noticed I was replying to other posts when I should be making my pick. Now that I've finally made it... pretty much every point I've made and every stat I'd have presented, have already been made & presented

One last thing - why is Carol Vadnais in this conversation? I never thought of him as an "offensive specialist", more of an all-around player. Am I wrong?

Also, I did want to note to Billy - congrats on taking a relative view and a career-long view of Gonchar. As in, just because he "became average" defensively doesn't mean he's average for his career, and even if it did, it wouldn't make him "average" in the ATD. He's well-below average, and based on the names you brought up, it seems you readily acknowledge this. More people should embrace, and "own" the deficiencies of their players. It's not going to ruin your team, it just adds a challenge, usually a minor one, in the construction of your lineup. And any player who we select with a major deficiency, is only being taken because he also has major pluses associated with him - in Gonchar's case, his ES and PP offense.

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:49 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Larry Murphy at #7 is a big miss as well, IMO. Not that he was bad, but...
This stat REALLY, REALLY values longevity over actual, you know, talent.

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:50 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
I'll never forget the fact that Marek Malik was the +/- king in the NHL over like a 4 year span...
He was a 3rd-pairing defenseman, so clearly he was not playing good competition. If anything, the stat might show he was the best 3rd-pairing defenseman... or among them.

He would never, ever have posted such numbers against top competition.

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:58 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I see you're playing Housley on your bottom pair, by the way. A wise choice. If I ever drafted Housley (and I never will, because he always goes higher than I could justify taking such a one-dimensional guy), I would use him as you are - bottom pairing and the majority of the PP.
Housley is on the 3rd pairing at even strength when the score is tied and when the team is leading. When trailing he will be on the 2nd pairing. Portland has the Big-3 of Kelly, Johnson, Lutchenko to get the lion's share of minutes. Leduc can move the puck very well AND be very physical, so he in the number 4 slot usually. Housley was an offensive force, three times top-10 in NHL scoring (of all skaters!), scored six consecutive 20 goal seasons, 5th all time in shots taken by a defenseman. His first eleven seasons are remarkable, but he stuck around too long (though in the middle of his 20th season he did score 5 points in 6 games in the 2002 Olympics).

Portland is a quick, puck moving team. Kelly, Leduc and Housley ensure that each pairing brings offensive from the back end in support of Cyclone.

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Old
03-12-2011, 07:29 PM
  #62
raleh
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Great conversation here, guys. I've been refreshing it and reading it while I was researching for my pick (I was not the least bit prepared, thought I had a lot longer to go before my next selection - and was surprised to get a guy I passed over earlier; I thought for sure I chose Bob Nevin over Murray Oliver, and couldn't have both)

I've wanted to reply to all this so badly, but I didn't want to stick my nose in any annoy anyone who would have aptly noticed I was replying to other posts when I should be making my pick. Now that I've finally made it... pretty much every point I've made and every stat I'd have presented, have already been made & presented

One last thing - why is Carol Vadnais in this conversation? I never thought of him as an "offensive specialist", more of an all-around player. Am I wrong?

Also, I did want to note to Billy - congrats on taking a relative view and a career-long view of Gonchar. As in, just because he "became average" defensively doesn't mean he's average for his career, and even if it did, it wouldn't make him "average" in the ATD. He's well-below average, and based on the names you brought up, it seems you readily acknowledge this. More people should embrace, and "own" the deficiencies of their players. It's not going to ruin your team, it just adds a challenge, usually a minor one, in the construction of your lineup. And any player who we select with a major deficiency, is only being taken because he also has major pluses associated with him - in Gonchar's case, his ES and PP offense.
In this draft, I'm the owner of Vadnais, and I've sort of come to terms with the fact that he's going to bring maybe a 2 out of 10 defensively. When I think "all around player", I think of someone I'd be comfortable with in any situation. There are a few situations in which I am NOT comfortable with Vadnais on the ice.

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Old
03-12-2011, 07:35 PM
  #63
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Is there any site other than chidlovski that is good for finding history about Russian players? There's a certain guy I'm trying to do some major research on I just can't find the stuff I'm looking for.

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Old
03-12-2011, 07:51 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He was a 3rd-pairing defenseman, so clearly he was not playing good competition. If anything, the stat might show he was the best 3rd-pairing defenseman... or among them.

He would never, ever have posted such numbers against top competition.
Still, it shows what a obsolete stat +/- is.

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Old
03-12-2011, 08:01 PM
  #65
seventieslord
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Oh crap! I didn't PM the next guy and now I am out and posting from my phone. Someone else please do it. Thanks fellas.

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Old
03-12-2011, 08:07 PM
  #66
monster_bertuzzi
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Just let leaf lander know...

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Old
03-12-2011, 08:52 PM
  #67
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select

#3 Dion Phaneuf, D

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Old
03-12-2011, 08:53 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He was a 3rd-pairing defenseman, so clearly he was not playing good competition. If anything, the stat might show he was the best 3rd-pairing defenseman... or among them.

He would never, ever have posted such numbers against top competition.
Actually he played a lot on a top pairing. It was his doing his job very well, complimenting an undrafted that got his +/- up.

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Old
03-12-2011, 09:16 PM
  #69
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Velociraptor listpicks Ian Turnbull, D.

Next gm will be pm'd.

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Old
03-12-2011, 09:32 PM
  #70
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Garnish Phantoms select Defenseman Kevin Hatcher



bio to come

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Old
03-12-2011, 09:59 PM
  #71
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Actually he played a lot on a top pairing. It was his doing his job very well, complimenting an undrafted that got his +/- up.
I stand corrected.

Wow, have we ever seen such a run of one-dimensional defensemen?

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Old
03-12-2011, 10:41 PM
  #72
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To start their bottom pairing, the Philadelphia Firebirds are happy to select D Frantisek Tikal



IIHF Hockey Hall of Fame Member
2x Best Defenseman in World Championships(1964, 1965)[Both over Alexander Ragulin(drafted 179) and Eduard Ivanov(drafted 392)]
1x World Championships All Star Team(1965)
4x World Championships Bronze Medalist
5x European Championships Bronze Medalist
1x Olympic Bronze Medalist
2x World Championships Silver Medalist
4x European Championships Silver Medalist
Captain of Slovakian National Team 1964-1967

Quote:
A native of the South was one of the best defensemen not only in Czechoslovakia but also the world in the late 50s and 60s. He was known as a great fighter, a tough and dedicated player, very strong, but always fair.

This uncompromising defender, nicknamed Mrkavka, played a total of 15 seasons in the Czechslovak First Ice Hockey League, mostly in a Sparta jersey. In this league, he played around 370 games and scored 80 goals, 146 other games and 30 goals scored for the national team.

He brought a number of silver and bronze medals, and was named the best defender in two World Championships. The defenseman was for many years a great compliment to partner xxx, on the national team and for Sparta.

In 2004, Tikal was inducted into the IIHF Hockey Hall of Fame, as well as being named to the All-Time Sparta team.
http://translate.google.com/translat...%26prmd%3Divns

Quote:
Frantisek, pictured, was a stalwart defenseman for the Czechs in a career that spanned 17 years. He was especially dominant in the early 1960s, helps Czechoslovakia capture the bronze medal in 1964. He was a regular player on the national team from 1957 through 1966. He was even named the best defenseman at both the 1964 and 1965 World Championships, and was inducted into the IIHF Hall of Fame in 2004. xxx, the legendary Canadian national team coach of the 1960s, considered Tikal the best defensman in Europe in the 1960s.

His brother Zdenek was nowhere near as good. In fact, while Frantisek is somewhat legendary in the Czech hockey scene, Zdenek was once considered a great traitor by everyone in his country. In 1948 he opted to defect from the new communist-controlled Czechoslovakia, a definite no-no.
http://internationalhockeylegends.bl...sek-tikal.html

Quote:
Although one of the best defenders already in twenty years, into a representation with regard to the political uncertainty to nomination in the 1955/56 season and was limited to interstate matches at home.

Many were chanting his Spartan prestige and cooperation with xxx..."I was more on the defensive, and xxx to attack."
http://translate.google.com/translat...-tikal&act=url

Quote:
It hurt them most on defense where they dropped two men, including Frantisek Tikal, top rated in Europe.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ek+tikal&hl=en

Quote:
xxx and Frantisek Tikal also rank with the best.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ek+tikal&hl=en

Quote:
Czechoslovakia's most experienced player Frantisek Tikal
http://www.google.com/search?q=trans...77d3ad80cfa687

Quote:
But their best looking players were still the veterans xxx, who scored twice and was their fastest man, left winger xxx, who scored once, team captain xxx, and defenseman Frantisek Tikal, the best in Europe.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ek+tikal&hl=en

Quote:
Possibly the outstanding performer for the visitors, however, is Frantisek Tikal, 31, who was voted top defenseman at the Olympic Games in Innsburck, Austria.

"I think he could play pro after a short period of training," xxx said.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ek+tikal&hl=en

Quote:
Right Winger Venjamin Alexandrov of Russia was sent sprawling yesterday by a collision with defenseman Frantisek Tikal of Czechoslovakia in a rough-and-tumble hockey game.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ek+tikal&hl=en

Quote:
The former excellent defender for Sparta Prague and the Czechslovak national team was defeated Sunday by a serious illness.

The two played together on the same defense for 200 games. In Sparta and even on the national team, xxx was the close aid of Tikal. "We understood each other admirably. As our styles complimented each other over time, we played better and better."

Frantisek was an excellent defender born in South Bohemia - in the Czech Vcelna Budejovice.

Due to the emigration of his father and brother, threatened was Frantisek's career on the threshold of brilliance to be spent on military service.
http://translate.google.com/translat...%26prmd%3Divns

Quote:
He didn't play another match in the series, but under cover of darkness was reunited with his estranged brother, Czech hockey star Frantisek Tikal, after the Czech secret police had tried to keep them apart.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/th...0220-oms6.html

Quote:
Frantisek Tikal, meanwhile, was a well-respected Czechoslovak in the late 1950s and throughout the ‘60s, but his brother, Zdenek, played for Australia at the 1960 Olympics.
http://www.iihf.com/channels1011/wm2...html?tx_ttnews[backPid]=4272&cHash=0de2739b40

Quote:
At the turn of the 50s to the 60s in the last century, Frantisek Tikal was one of the best hockey players in the world.
http://translate.google.com/translat...%26prmd%3Divns

Quote:
The legendary, great defender of Sparta Prague and Czechslovak team Frantisek Tikal.
http://translate.google.com/translat...%26prmd%3Divns

Quote:
The giant Frantisek Tikal in the defensive position is handicapped by an old injury
http://www.google.com/search?q=1963+...d35f689f495207

Quote:
He spent 11 season with that team and at one point formed a defensive duo with Frantisek Tikal. "When I went on the attack, he covered my back."
http://books.google.com/books?id=wAM...ed=0CDcQ6AEwAw

Quote:
Gorde Hunter, the sports editor of the Calgary Herald, was so impressed by his play during a pre-Olympic tour of Canada in 1963 that he wrote the blueliner could be a National Hockey League star. Others compared his style to that of perennial NHL all-star Doug Harvey.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...+tikal&page=33


Last edited by BillyShoe1721: 03-13-2011 at 01:35 PM.
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Old
03-12-2011, 10:43 PM
  #73
Hedberg
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How is "Tikal" pronounced?

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Old
03-12-2011, 10:44 PM
  #74
seventieslord
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How is "Tikal" pronounced?
I always thought "TEE-kal".

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Old
03-12-2011, 10:45 PM
  #75
Jafar
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nice run of defenseman , still can't believe one D isn't picked yet.

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