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ATD 2011 Draft Thread VIII

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Old
03-13-2011, 03:08 PM
  #101
Nalyd Psycho
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George Vezina in the Bio Thread

Not a true bio, more of a look at how observers viewed him while he was still alive. So we can get a better feel for him without the muddling that a tragic death brings.

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Old
03-13-2011, 03:43 PM
  #102
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When I researched Charlie Gardiner, so many of the quotes were basically along the lines "he's the best goalie since..."/"he's even better than..." Georges Vezina/ Hugh Lehman.

I realize that those two are easy comparable to Gardiner since Vezina died young too and Lehman was Gardiner's mentor, but...

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Old
03-13-2011, 03:58 PM
  #103
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John "Pie" McKenzie, RW


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Old
03-13-2011, 04:02 PM
  #104
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Damn you MadArcand!

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Old
03-13-2011, 04:47 PM
  #105
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The Kimberley Dynamiters select C/RW Ernie Russell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, Jan 1908
Ernie Russell made several dazzling rushes from centre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto Sunday World, Dec 1912
Art Ross, Ernie Russell, Cleghorn brothers and Harry Hyland are considered the equal of any other five in the game today
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen, Feb 1910
Ernie Russell was so closely covered on the line that he did not get a goal, but at the same time he was there with the good work at all times, commanding the attention of Frank and Lester Patrick from beginning to end."
In a piece called "Russell Principal Bad Actor in NHA", referring to his penalty totals:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgary Herald, Mar 1915
While Wanderers are apparently the worst offenders their superior position is very largely due to Ernie Russell, the redoubtable little center. He was the only player in the league to reach the limit of five major fouls.

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Old
03-13-2011, 04:50 PM
  #106
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Yuri Lyapkin, D

6'0, 182 lbs.

Quote:
- USSR Gold (1): 1976
- WC Gold: 1971, 1973-1975
- Olympics Gold: 1976
- Played in the Summit Series 72, Superseries 75-76, 76-77, 78-79

- 246 points (168-78) in 515 RSL games
- top-10 in points in the Russian league among defensemen: 1T, 1T, 1T, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2T, 2, 3, 5

Ok.. this turned out to be extremely lucrative. He played from 1965-1979, and ONLY in 1979, his final season where he played about half the schedule, did he not score in the top-10 among defensemen. I think it's fair to say that his offensive contributions are incredibly underrated.

- 37 points (11-27) in 61 international games
- among Russian defenders in points internationally (top-3s only): 1T, 1T, 1, 1, 1
- these include 1st in points in '72 Summit Series, '76 Super Series
PM'ing next.

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Old
03-13-2011, 05:05 PM
  #107
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Seventieslord, I'd be curious to see how defencemen rank in your ranking of PCHA offensive dominance.
I had all the stats copied and pasted from SIHR into a nice little file, but then I deleted out the defensemen because I was doing a study on the forwards. I realized that was a silly error, but I kept the file for future use anyway. It came in handy for Friday's study.

This meanas it would be a lot more work to do a similar thing for the league's defensemen. I know it's not perfect, but check my old Frank Patrick bio, it has a cursory list of all prominent PCHA defensemen and their career GP and PPG. Some guys are starred out IIRC, but they would be easy to figure out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Very pleased to get Balon here. I think he's an excellent first piece of a two-way 3rd line. I really wanted to comment when seventies picked Nevin that there was an undrafted Ranger winger from those teams who I considered a better two-way player than Bob (no offense to Nevin...I think it's close). Balon didn't do a lot of penalty killing for those Rangers teams, but he did well with a lot of tough assignments at even strength as part of a very effective checkingline (and in an era of great strength at right wing) and turned in some strong scoring finishes in the process, as well. This is what Toe Blake had to say about Balon after his first big season in Montreal (part of a heartbreaking article about Balon's long battle with MS):

Balon played on the Henri Richard line for a couple of very good seasons in Montreal before being selected by Minnesota in the 1967 expansion draft where he would star for a season before being traded back to New York, where he would enjoy his best years playing as the primary goalscorer next to Walt Tkaczuk on the Bulldog Line.
Hmmm... a better "two way" player, meaning not necessarily better offensively or defensively, but better overall? I am not so sure of that. Balon seems to have had a more prominent role in New York when they were together there, but that really seems to be the only advantage he has in a comparison between the two.

Offense: Nevin averaged more GPG, APG, and PPG, both overall and at even strength, than Balon did. He maintained these higher averages in a career that spanned 45% more NHL games than Balon's.

Balon's NY years were easily the high water mark of his career. He had 60 and 70-point seasons but never topped 47 points again. Bob Nevin topped that mark 7 times. He also did this for three franchises, with at least four different sets of linemates, over a span of 15 years. Nevin didn't seem to need any specific situation in which to thrive. Balon's results indicate that he might have.

Defense: Balon did play on the Bulldog line with Tkaczuk, which means that in New York specifically, he may have had some tougher assignments, but this doesn't necessarily mean that he was better or more highly regarded defensively. Just like teams seldom choose to "load up " a line with their three best forwards, they don't always do the same defensively. Nevin's reputation before and after New York show that it is quite possible he was a better defensive player just given a different set of responsibilities.

Nevin killed 45% of his team's penalties post-expansion; Balon just 12%, which is below average for a forward. SHP stats suggest it was the same before expansion: he had 8 SHP in 7 seasons, Balon had 3 SHP in six seasons (all in the same season). As you alluded to, penalty killing isn't the sole indicator of defensive ability, but it is a big one.

As for what was said of these two players at the time, here's what Zander Hollander's first two editions of "The Complete Handbook Of Pro Hockey" from 1971 and 1972 have to say about their non-offensive abilities:

Balon: a tough checker who plays his position well and does not wander from his side of the ice... slightly bow-legged from riding horses which makes him tough to knock off balance...

Nevin: soft-spoken but efficient and one of the best checking forwards in the NHL... frequently used as a penalty killer because of his outstanding defensive work... although noted primarily for his defense, is only three points shy of a career total of 500... not appreciated as much by fans as he is by his teammates and other hockey players... NY coach calls him the best two-way player in the league... efficient two-way performer who plays the game at both ends of the ice... excellent penalty killer... has always been primarily a defensive-minded player... always assigned to the opposition's most dangerous scorer... an honest, two-way performer ...

one is a tough checker with good balance, the other, they can't stop praising him.

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Old
03-13-2011, 05:26 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Yuri Lyapkin, D

6'0, 182 lbs.



PM'ing next.
He's the guy I picked Boyle over when I was picking my PP QB.

Fantastic offensive defenseman, but his defense is certainly questionable.

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Old
03-13-2011, 05:29 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He's the guy I picked Boyle over when I was picking my PP QB.

Fantastic offensive defenseman, but his defense is certainly questionable.
His back checking may have been questionable, but he was apparently a top PKer for the Soviet teams.

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Old
03-13-2011, 05:32 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
John "Pie" McKenzie, RW

Solid pick. Was hoping he'd fall to us.

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Old
03-13-2011, 05:44 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
His back checking may have been questionable, but he was apparently a top PKer for the Soviet teams.
Was he a top PKer? There's the one single well-known quote about how he and Tsyganov killed off the 5-on-3 at the Canada Cup, but I haven't seen anything about how he regularly did it.

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Old
03-13-2011, 05:46 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Was he a top PKer? There's the one single well-known quote about how he and Tsyganov killed off the 5-on-3 at the Canada Cup, but I haven't seen anything about how he regularly did it.
That's what Nalyd told me in PM. I'll look into it.

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Old
03-13-2011, 05:51 PM
  #113
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"I remember the opening faceoff. I knew this faceoff was symbolic. I didn't know why, but I really wanted to win it. At the last second, I decided not to fight for the puck. I thought it would look strange." Vladimir Vikulov

http://www.1972summitseries.com/quotes.html

Some pretty awesome quotes in there.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:14 PM
  #114
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Lorne Chabot:

-Stanley Cup winner x2 (1928, 1932)
-Vezina trophy (1935)
-Ranked #84 on THN top 100 players list.
-Ranked #20 on THN all time goalie rankings (2010)

Any particular reason why he's so criminally underrated around here?

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:25 PM
  #115
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Lorne Chabot:

-Stanley Cup winner x2 (1928, 1932)
-Vezina trophy (1935)
-Ranked #84 on THN top 100 players list.
-Ranked #20 on THN all time goalie rankings (2010)

Any particular reason why he's so criminally underrated around here?
The all-time goalies list is just based on the top 100 list, so that's the same source.

As for your question, I don't really know if he's underrated. He was pretty clearly not as good as Roy Worters or Charlie Gardiner if you look at awards recognition and newspaper clips.

1935 seems to be his only real standout regular season. No postseason AS teams other than 1935. He's also not a member of the Hockey Hall of Fame.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:31 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Lorne Chabot:

-Stanley Cup winner x2 (1928, 1932)
-Vezina trophy (1935)
-Ranked #84 on THN top 100 players list.
-Ranked #20 on THN all time goalie rankings (2010)

Any particular reason why he's so criminally underrated around here?
The better question would be: is there any particular reason why THN ranked him like they did?

We know very little about Chabot's regular season performances outside of his one great year in 1935. It's hard to credit him with being a great goalie when our evidence of his greatness is pretty much one season. He also contributed almost nothing to the Rangers' efforts in the Cup Finals of 1928, losing Game 1 and then being knocked out for the series and famously replaced by Lester Patrick in a Rangers Game 2 overtime victory. An undrafted started in nets in games 3, 4 and 5 for the Rangers.

I hope you have more information on Chabot because he's a guy who we could be underrating, but based on what information we have currently, I can't see why he should be picked higher.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:31 PM
  #117
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His numbers were fantastic, especially in the playoffs with a career GAA of 1.54 over 37 games.

Maybe not as good as Worters (arguable) and Gardiner but he should have gone before Vachon and Connell in some drafts.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:35 PM
  #118
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I had all the stats copied and pasted from SIHR into a nice little file, but then I deleted out the defensemen because I was doing a study on the forwards. I realized that was a silly error, but I kept the file for future use anyway. It came in handy for Friday's study.

This meanas it would be a lot more work to do a similar thing for the league's defensemen. I know it's not perfect, but check my old Frank Patrick bio, it has a cursory list of all prominent PCHA defensemen and their career GP and PPG. Some guys are starred out IIRC, but they would be easy to figure out.
What I was hoping was to do a career offensive value comparison between Lester, Moose and Cook with lower end forwards like Oatman and Walker when playmaking is fairly weighted.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:37 PM
  #119
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The Guelph Platers select LW John Ogrodnick.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:38 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
His numbers were fantastic, especially in the playoffs with a career GAA of 1.54 over 37 games.

Maybe not as good as Worters (arguable) and Gardiner but he should have gone before Vachon and Connell in some drafts.
Completely disagree , when I picked my goalie I took regular season and playoffi nto consideration ( that's why I didn't picked Worters , as well as his size ) and Connel was had good resume in all category and was a pretty solid goalie.I'll always take Connell ahead of Chabot.

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03-13-2011, 06:40 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
The Guelph Platers select LW John Ogrodnick.
I've never even heard of this guy so I hope there's a good reason you took him.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:40 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Completely disagree , when I picked my goalie I took regular season and playoffi nto consideration ( that's why I didn't picked Worters , as well as his size ) and Connel was had good resume in all category and was a pretty solid goalie.I'll always take Connell ahead of Chabot.
He didn't do enough in the playoffs for me, Chabot is a champion and has the numbers.

To each their own.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:45 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
I've never even heard of this guy so I hope there's a good reason you took him.
I just got a steal. And I needed it, you guys were leaving the scoring LW cupboard a little bare on me.

Ogrodnick was 3rd in the NHL in goals by a left winger during his career span and a first team all star in 84-85, his career year. (He was behind Goulet who was 1st, and only 11 goals behind Propp who was 2nd during that time).

Unfortunately, his playoff resume leaves some to be desired since he played on the dead wings during the best years of his career. He did pretty well in the only two notable playoff runs his poor teams had but those were the only chances he had.

Still racked up 7 30+ goal seasons and 4 40+ goal seasons from the left side, though.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 03-13-2011 at 07:02 PM.
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Old
03-13-2011, 07:10 PM
  #124
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Boris Mayorov, W

Quote:
Originally Posted by chidlovski
The best line in the history of Moscow Spartak and in the world (?) in the late 1960s. Starshinov's line was famous for their aggressive style. Starshinov and, especially, Boris Mayorov loved to fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings of the Ice
Starshinov lost count of the goals he scored on passes from Boris Mayorov. These passes, according to Starshinov, were extremely opportune and proved totally unexpected for the opposition. His opponents were familiar with Mayorov's style of play, but somehow he always managed to fool them and alert Starshinov through a shared sixth sense when a pass was coming.
Domestic:
- Member of Russian Hockey HOF
- Soviet League Champion (1962, 1967, 1969)
- Soviet League All-Star (1959, 1962, 1966*, 1967, 1968*, 1969*) *-2nd/3rd team. These nods are at both LW and RW.
- Top-5 in Soviet League Scoring 7 Times (2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th)
- 255 Goals in 400 Soviet League Games

International:
- Member of the IIHF Hall Of Fame
- Olympic/WC Gold (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968)
- Was Soviet National Team Captain (1963-1968)

- 1st in scoring at 1961 Worlds, 2nd in 1964
- Mayorov got into a fight in the 1961 worlds, while leading the tournament in scoring.
- World Championship Top Forward (1961)
- Original Choice for the Top Forward of the 1964 Olympics (see below)
- 30 goals, 32 assists, 62 points in 50 major international games (Starshinov had 48-20-68 in these games)

Quote:
Originally Posted by legendsofhockey
captain Mayorov was key to six world championships for the Soviet Union in the 1960s, leading the tournament in scoring in '61 when he was named the tournament's best forward. He won the gold at both the '64 and '68 Olympics and played on a line with ******* ******* and Vyacheslav Starshinov.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings of the ice
The Starshinov line was distinguished by its synchronous actions and total reciprocal awareness. Boris played LW and the center slot was filled by Starshinov... Boris was able to end his career with the national team with dignity. Before the 1969 Worlds, he was straightforward at a meeting with his teammates, telling them honestly that due to injuries he would be unable to play at his best in all the games... Boris Mayorov was a natural-born leader, and Starshinov cited him as a prime mover and innovator.
Robbed of the "Best Forward" award in the 1964 Olympics:

Quote:
Following the Soviet Unionís 3-2 victory over Canada to lock-up the gold medal in the last match at Innsbruck, the International Ice Hockey Federation Directorate chose USSR right wing BORIS MAYOROV for their Best Forward award. The 25-year-old Soviet captain finished the seven-game final round-robin with seven goals and ten points. This left the Spartak Moscow skater tied with four others, including Soviet teammates VYACHESLAV STARSHINOV and VIKTOR YAKUSHEV, for the second-highest point total at Innsbruck.

Soviet hockey officials, meanwhile, took the award and handed it EDUARD IVANOV. This despite the fact that the 25-year-old CSKA Moscow man was, in fact, a defenseman. Ivanov did score four goals in seven round-robin games, which set a new record for Soviet rearguards at the Winter Olympic Games.

Incredible as it may seem today, the IIHF accepted this and, thus, into the record books went Ivanovís name.
http://www.goironpigs.com/?cat=67

Quotes via seventieslord and VI

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Old
03-13-2011, 07:15 PM
  #125
seventieslord
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Connell = Chabot, IMO. No real big reason to take one over the other.

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