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Gotta ask: Has Lavy worn them out?

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Old
03-08-2011, 12:13 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
When we hired Laviolette people said hee wears out his welcome after about two or three years and that the players tune him out. Hopefully that doesn't happen, but thought it was worth pointing out.
It's not so much that the team tunes him out. He was well liked by players in Long Island and Carolina. The problem that Laviolette has is that he never deviates from the game plan and he'll continually use the same system over and over and over. When he was fired in Carolina, Rutherford and Karmanos also noted that he'll pigeonhole players and they'll end up in his dog house for no apparent reason.

I think Laviolette is a very bright coach and he's seen enough to know when to let up on the gas pedal. If anything, this four game losing streak just shows that this is a yearly thing with the Flyers - they always slump at this time of year. And it's like clock work this happens. You can go back 15 years and at practically the same time every year, the team tanks it.

I'm just disappointed because I thought this would be the year that they would tighten everything up for down the stretch and be getting ready for playoff mode.

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03-08-2011, 12:55 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
It's not so much that the team tunes him out. He was well liked by players in Long Island and Carolina. The problem that Laviolette has is that he never deviates from the game plan and he'll continually use the same system over and over and over. When he was fired in Carolina, Rutherford and Karmanos also noted that he'll pigeonhole players and they'll end up in his dog house for no apparent reason.

I think Laviolette is a very bright coach and he's seen enough to know when to let up on the gas pedal. If anything, this four game losing streak just shows that this is a yearly thing with the Flyers - they always slump at this time of year. And it's like clock work this happens. You can go back 15 years and at practically the same time every year, the team tanks it.

I'm just disappointed because I thought this would be the year that they would tighten everything up for down the stretch and be getting ready for playoff mode.
Yup..Lavy can be pretty stubborn. Teams have definitely adjusted to our scheme out there and he's going to have to adapt as well. Players are dogging it now and they deserve criticism but there is shared responsibility in all of this so I'm glad Lavy has owned up to some of it. Having said this ..he's still the boss and the players can't use Lavy's self-criticism as a crutch to not be responsible for their play as Holmgren is warning. Interesting crossroads the team is at right now with the playoffs fast approaching. This episode in adversity is going to be critical going forward..they play .500 hockey or below from here on in they will be ousted out of the playoffs quick...

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03-08-2011, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
It's not so much that the team tunes him out. He was well liked by players in Long Island and Carolina. The problem that Laviolette has is that he never deviates from the game plan and he'll continually use the same system over and over and over. When he was fired in Carolina, Rutherford and Karmanos also noted that he'll pigeonhole players and they'll end up in his dog house for no apparent reason.

I think Laviolette is a very bright coach and he's seen enough to know when to let up on the gas pedal. If anything, this four game losing streak just shows that this is a yearly thing with the Flyers - they always slump at this time of year. And it's like clock work this happens. You can go back 15 years and at practically the same time every year, the team tanks it.

I'm just disappointed because I thought this would be the year that they would tighten everything up for down the stretch and be getting ready for playoff mode.

When it results in a SCF run and then a successful season this year there must be things that he does that work, especially when he already has his name on Lord Stanley's Cup. Look at all the teams who have had success, they use the forecheck and defense to create their offense. The team has strayed from his gameplan and now they are in a slump losing games and losing confidence. They need to get back to hitting the man and finishing their checks

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03-08-2011, 03:31 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by facts View Post
The problem with this team is that the players own nothing, different page, different chapter, flu, nothing to play for on and on.
PLAYERS!

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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The problem that Laviolette has is that he never deviates from the game plan and he'll continually use the same system over and over and over.
SYSTEM!!

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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Teams have definitely adjusted to our scheme out there and he's going to have to adapt as well. Players are dogging it now and they deserve criticism but there is shared responsibility in all of this so I'm glad Lavy has owned up to some of it.
PLAYERS and SYSTEM!!!

---

As much as it would please me to see some of the n00bs here tear into Laviolette's fur and encounter rabid resistance from those who daydream about soaping his back in a warm shower, it seems to me that 90% of this downturn is owed to one simple element: their powerplay sucks.

When you work your tail off to draw penalties and then cannot light the lamp on the man advantage, time after time, game after game, it is sapping. So then what happens is that guys try to do too much and that's when you see boners like those of Versteeg and Leino at MSG on Sunday. If you live long enough, you see this in every sport - quarterbacks forcing throws into coverage, basketball players taking bad shots, hitters swinging for fences, outfielders overthrowing cutoff men, et cetera et cetera ad nauseum.

This is where your superstars are supposed to step in, if you have any.

Problem: the Flyers don't have any.

The Flyers have no AAA players and they are less outfitted at goalkeeper than any other Cup candidate. But they are deeper than most, up and down the ice, and what that's supposed to do is allow guys to take turns making big plays. It ain't happening. Hence, your slump.

I think they will pull it together; they are too deep to remain mired for long.

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03-08-2011, 04:28 PM
  #80
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Lavioette doesn't have a problem with the system, and has no reason to deviate from it. He is the one who is proven here.

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03-08-2011, 04:32 PM
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The system is a system, not a trick, ruse, novelty or gimmick. You don't solve it and all of a sudden have the key to victory. Laviolette's system does rely on skating an energy though, which would explain why it has looked so beatable of late.

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03-08-2011, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
When it results in a SCF run and then a successful season this year there must be things that he does that work, especially when he already has his name on Lord Stanley's Cup. Look at all the teams who have had success, they use the forecheck and defense to create their offense. The team has strayed from his gameplan and now they are in a slump losing games and losing confidence. They need to get back to hitting the man and finishing their checks
I'm not saying it doesn't. Nowhere in anything I said did I state that the system Laviolette employs doesn't work. However, there are times when you have to let up on the gas pedal, especially when you have a flu stricken team. You don't continue to run the guys into the ground when they're sick. And that's the problem with Laviolette - he doesn't necessarily adjust to what's happening around him. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's something that both Long Island and Carolina were quick to point out about Peter when they both let him go.

JXC also brings up an interesting point about there not being a true superstar within the team. There are lots of very good players, but there's no one that can carry this team on their back when they go through slumps like this. You look at teams past and there was always someone who could carry this team for awhile. People can talk about all the depth there is in Philadelphia, but if any of the past Stanley Cup winners have shown, you need a bonafide superstar in the lineup to help win when it matters. The Flyers do not have one of those guys.

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03-08-2011, 04:49 PM
  #83
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Who was Chicago's superstar?

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03-08-2011, 04:56 PM
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Who was Chicago's superstar?
Patrick Kane or Duncan Keith. You could also make a case for Jonathan Toews as well, but those two are above Toews in terms of their games.

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03-08-2011, 05:02 PM
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Patrick Kane or Duncan Keith. You could also make a case for Jonathan Toews as well, but those two are above Toews in terms of their games.
If those are "superstars", then we have Pronger, Timonen, Richards, Carter, Giroux, and Briere.

I don't buy the "superstar" argument at all.

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03-08-2011, 05:26 PM
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If those are "superstars", then we have Pronger, Timonen, Richards, Carter, Giroux, and Briere.

I don't buy the "superstar" argument at all.
Pronger and Timonen are in the same class as Keith, but they're also considerably older than Keith. As for Richards, Carter, Giroux and Briere, as good as they are, they aren't Pat Kane good. I look at it like this. When coaches go to plan their games against the Flyers, those four guys listed are the least of their concerns. When it comes to playing the Blackhawks, teams have to find a way to stop Kane. To me, that's all the difference in the world because he's a game changer and he has the ability to single handedly take over a game. The only player out of that four who might have that Kane type of ability to single handedly change the direction of a game is Giroux, but that ability is hampered because of the depth.

And once again, I'm not saying that depth is a bad thing. However, there's nothing wrong with having a superstar in the lineup either.

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03-08-2011, 05:29 PM
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I just don't consider Kane the kind of guy who can carry a team when they're struggling. I can't put him in the same category as guys like OV (well except this season...) and Crosby.

having a "superstar" is nice, but it isn't necessary.

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03-08-2011, 06:09 PM
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I just don't consider Kane the kind of guy who can carry a team when they're struggling. I can't put him in the same category as guys like OV (well except this season...) and Crosby.

having a "superstar" is nice, but it isn't necessary.
kane is no more that guy than giroux or richards are... honestly the more I think about it the more I realize a big key to this teams success is how briere is playing... if he is scoring and playing well others seem to fall in line and play well, and the team wins

Look at our cup run, briere lead the way.... look at early in the season briere led the way, lately briere is in a slump and so is the team, maybe its coincidence but I think he is our spark

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03-08-2011, 06:11 PM
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No one said it was necessary, they said superstars are the guys that step up and pull teams out of slumps.

Crosby
OV
Malkin
Staal
Lidstrom
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Kane
Henrik Lundvist
Marian Gaborik

Look, when their team is down and out, one of these guys makes a stupidly crazy play and pulls their team out of it. The flyers don't have players that can do that. The last player was forsberg. The flyers have allot of A class talent and depth. 95% of the time that will win you a game. But sometimes, that one superstar can turn everything against you.


Aka peter forsberg against buffalo.

Edit: I know I butchered all of the names. I never was good with names


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03-08-2011, 06:20 PM
  #90
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Before the 4 game losing streak, but still during the current suck streak, Giroux and Carter were essentially carrying the team.

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03-14-2011, 11:01 AM
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Tiredness and being worn out shouldnt be an issue. Depsite an all out physical style, depth means minutes are limited so nobody gets tired. Both for forwards and D.

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03-14-2011, 11:07 AM
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Tiredness and being worn out shouldnt be an issue.
That's what we heard last year, anyway.

"I can't wait to see this team after a full training camp with Bowman Lavi!"

Oh well.

Still quite a ways to go and plenty of time to get back online.

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03-14-2011, 11:14 AM
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Yeah if only we still had Stevens

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03-14-2011, 11:17 AM
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Yeah if only we still had Stevens
We'd be on the second long losing streak of the season. joy.

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03-14-2011, 11:18 AM
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We'd be on the second long losing streak of the season. joy.
we would have cake though! and Jones!

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03-14-2011, 11:25 AM
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we would have cake though! and Jones!
I'd rather pour gasoline into my eyes.

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03-14-2011, 12:10 PM
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As much as it would please me to see some of the n00bs here tear into Laviolette's fur and encounter rabid resistance from those who daydream about soaping his back in a warm shower, it seems to me that 90% of this downturn is owed to one simple element: their powerplay sucks.

When you work your tail off to draw penalties and then cannot light the lamp on the man advantage, time after time, game after game, it is sapping. So then what happens is that guys try to do too much and that's when you see boners like those of Versteeg and Leino at MSG on Sunday. If you live long enough, you see this in every sport - quarterbacks forcing throws into coverage, basketball players taking bad shots, hitters swinging for fences, outfielders overthrowing cutoff men, et cetera et cetera ad nauseum.

This is where your superstars are supposed to step in, if you have any.

Problem: the Flyers don't have any.

The Flyers have no AAA players and they are less outfitted at goalkeeper than any other Cup candidate. But they are deeper than most, up and down the ice, and what that's supposed to do is allow guys to take turns making big plays. It ain't happening. Hence, your slump.

I think they will pull it together; they are too deep to remain mired for long.
It is not the PP, it is the fact that this team has given up 75 goals against in the 3rd period. Look at some of the teams who are in that ranking and there are not a lot of playoff bound teams. Bottom line is the PP is part of the problem, but when players are not winning the one on one battles, and executing it comes down to the players. Don't make things too complicated, no behind the back passes, no cross-ice passes through the zone, pass it around the box and get an open seam.

The coach even felt bad for the players for overworking them, what does he get rewarded with? A crappy effort against a poor team like Atlanta and once again blowing a lead.

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03-14-2011, 12:16 PM
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I'm not saying it doesn't. Nowhere in anything I said did I state that the system Laviolette employs doesn't work. However, there are times when you have to let up on the gas pedal, especially when you have a flu stricken team. You don't continue to run the guys into the ground when they're sick. And that's the problem with Laviolette - he doesn't necessarily adjust to what's happening around him. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's something that both Long Island and Carolina were quick to point out about Peter when they both let him go.

JXC also brings up an interesting point about there not being a true superstar within the team. There are lots of very good players, but there's no one that can carry this team on their back when they go through slumps like this. You look at teams past and there was always someone who could carry this team for awhile. People can talk about all the depth there is in Philadelphia, but if any of the past Stanley Cup winners have shown, you need a bonafide superstar in the lineup to help win when it matters. The Flyers do not have one of those guys.

I think the problem is the reverse, too many superstars and not enough guys who want to go out and earn their ice time. It is like people saying that Laviolette not adjusting to Zherdev, using him appropriately. Well the system is not about the individual, it is about a unit working together to put forth their best for :45-1:00 of ice time.

And the excuse of running these guys around is non-sense. If you look at the schedule during that stretch they had 15 games in 30-something days, it was a game @every 2.3 days and their longest road trip was to Fla. The excuse of getting burned out or overworked is for losers. They have a 6 month period of time where they need to focus on their jobs, which includes pre-game naps for most. Maybe it is not the overwork on the ice which is causing the problem but burning the candle on both ends and having too many late nights?

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03-14-2011, 12:22 PM
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Pronger and Timonen are in the same class as Keith, but they're also considerably older than Keith. As for Richards, Carter, Giroux and Briere, as good as they are, they aren't Pat Kane good. I look at it like this. When coaches go to plan their games against the Flyers, those four guys listed are the least of their concerns. When it comes to playing the Blackhawks, teams have to find a way to stop Kane. To me, that's all the difference in the world because he's a game changer and he has the ability to single handedly take over a game. The only player out of that four who might have that Kane type of ability to single handedly change the direction of a game is Giroux, but that ability is hampered because of the depth.

And once again, I'm not saying that depth is a bad thing. However, there's nothing wrong with having a superstar in the lineup either.
Richards, Briere, and Carter are getting paid like superstars and many have already issued that Carter and Richards are two of the untradeable pieces of the core group. How is it that Carter and Richards escape from this without having the finger pointed at them.

Carter has been playing really well lately, I certainly hope he keeps it up, but at some point Carter and Richards are going to have to strap their carriages to Pronger and back him up for calling this team out. If you play undisciplined hockey no system or style of play in the world is going to help you win.

It is the difference between the individual versus the TEAM, no one individual is bigger than the TEAM, and as a team you can overcome any adversity.

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03-14-2011, 02:46 PM
  #100
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The team being worn out after the past season and a half could be an explanation to their recent play in third periods. Look at the track record of teams the season after they lose in the finals, not every team is the 09 penguins.

I also think it has to do with the approach that the players take once gaining the lead on an inferior team. This team is at its best when the have constant pressure in the offensive zone. But when they gain the lead they tend to sit back and lose that drive on the forecheck. Once that happens, its tough to just turn it on again midway through a period, thus teams are easily able to chip away at the leads. The team needs to realize that they don't have to do any favors for other teams by not blowing them out once they get the lead, and continue to push the play throughout the whole game.

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