Didn't mean to come off how I did with the 'cute', and I know what you're saying, but I really don't think his eye/view/thought process will change under Sather. He's just going through the hazing(for lack of better term) process for a front office job.
Not like he's opening up his skull, taking his brain out and sticking Sather's in.
For this organization to actually continue to move forward we need to stop recycling people already in the organizaiton/or have been in the organization.
They really do need a fresh face in here.
I understand that Sather won't magically put his brain in Messier (or could he...Just ask Bob Gainey circa the Scott Gomez Trade ) but just the way that Sather explains how he views certain situations is what bothers me.
if u look up at the luxury boxes in the garden, and u find sathers box, last time i was there i discovered messier sitting next to him so they're priming him to become a GM which i dont think were just ready for yet
For this organization to actually continue to move forward we need to stop recycling people already in the organizaiton/or have been in the organization.
They really do need a fresh face in here.
I understand that Sather won't magically put his brain in Messier (or could he...Just ask Bob Gainey circa the Scott Gomez Trade ) but just the way that Sather explains how he views certain situations is what bothers me.
Just a broad term to describe those sitatuions where a GM has to make a tough decision/leverage the GM rules.
I can't really think of a good example right now, but just some kinda of player movement where in a situation Sather would have to decide on something and/or use the league rules to help make that decision.
How Sather interprets those rules would inevitably be passed on down to Messier.
Mess would probably be a better GM than Coach. Just because Messier can be a motivator doesn't mean he would be a good x's and o's guy. Plus I'm against anyone becoming coach without any prior experience.
why?? because he needs a few years to figure out the business aspect. u cant just rush him in there, what is this his 2nd year as "special assistant"? another year and i think hes ready
Steve Yzerman? Joe Neiwendyk? Think those guys have done well so far.
Every situation is different. I'd say with his knowledge of the game and knowing what you need to win a cup, since he did it 5 times, that should help.
Can he be worse then Sather in free agency yet could he be better in trades?
It is also about the other people in place through the organization. Having Gordie Clark running the drafts, I think he would be fine with having good people in place, which I think we have outside of Sather. How else would we have some sort of a youth movement going without outside influence on Sather
That's two our of how many hundred good/great players?
That's one GM out of 30 and one coach out of 30
Quick counter to both guys.
Gretzky was brutal as a GM
Trottier was Brutal as a Coach
And further, what has Dallas done so far that would make what Joe's done so special?
And with Steve Yzerman? Seriosuly? He steps into a situation where the team already had their core together.
What has he done to be considered a success?
For every good/great player that finds success in the front office (Coach or GM) there are so many more that have failed to get hired in those roles or succeeded once posted to that role.
Messier would eb no different. Odds are that he would fail.
Messier also had a hand in many personnel moves throughout his career, which is why he'd have a better chance to be successful than most other players.
Messier was a horrible leader, no hockey sense, and sure couldn't lead a team unless he's playing on it...even then, not like he'd win a cup or anything.
Moreover, being known as a leader (again, known to most as "The Captain") is no reason to think he'd be a great coach.
How much coaching experience did Lemaire have before he molded NJ into the best defensive team in sports history?
Two years in MTL? How'd he start that? What made someone think that would be a good idea?
Who did Lemaire learn the game from at the pro level?
That will give you an indication right there why he had the success that he had.
Additionally, when he took over the Devils, the league had just gone through a massive expansion of 9 teams in few short years. With the league being flooded with AHL level talent, Lemaire led the NHL to a Trap happy popularity killing era of Hockey.
Messier also had a hand in many personnel moves throughout his career, which is why he'd have a better chance to be successful than most other players.
you mean the moves that helped doom this franchise from the late 90's until after the lockout?
Thanks, but this cements my decision to pass on him in a hurry.
For those claiming Yzerman as a success story, don't neglect the fact that he spent more than four years learning within the most professional and most successful front office in the sport. Messier is learning from Glen Sather.
Also, Yzerman earned his GM position within a different organization than the one he was brought along in. He wasn't handed his current job on a silver platter after cozying up to a group of executives.
Truthfully, there is nothin to really go by on the business side for the Messier argument. I mean on the ice we all know the guy was the full package. But, how that translates to the bsuiness side is anyones guess. As for right now, I am not sure what he even does for the team? I mean, he helped out on facoeffs I know that. I think he set up the garden of dreams foundation.
But was he instrumental in any trades or acquisitions?
Was he involved in any the draft?
Are there any targets on his radar that he wants to bring here?
Does he interact much with Tortorella?
i trust mess. the guy is a winner. id be fine with him as a gm in the future.
Why is it difficult for some people to understand that a player's on-ice leadership ability and playing skills do not guarantee success as a front office executive/coach? Just because a guy was a good leader (or a "winner") during his playing days doesn't mean he will be a good GM. I thought this was just common sense by now.
It's apples and oranges. Playing hockey and leading a team on ice vs. Being GM and constructing a team to be a winner. Those tasks require very different skillsets.
I don't understand why you would blindly "trust Mess" to run this team when he's shown no ability to run anything. I understand that you said "in the future", but you didn't give any kind of reasoning as to what makes you so confident that he'll be a good GM.
Just a broad term to describe those sitatuions where a GM has to make a tough decision/leverage the GM rules.
I can't really think of a good example right now, but just some kinda of player movement where in a situation Sather would have to decide on something and/or use the league rules to help make that decision.
How Sather interprets those rules would inevitably be passed on down to Messier.
You don't think that's a rather weak case against Messier?
How Sather interprets the rules is just a basis on how Messier perceives them, I trust he'd take only the valid pieces of info just as any student/teacher situation.
For the people that are crying Wayne Gretzky part deux(that's 2), good player doesn't equal good coach/GM, etc...I have to seriously ask, how old are you? Do you remember Mark Messier? Can you ever recall an interview from the days when he wasn't under someone's shoe?? Like when he was the head honcho??
When he came back to NY it was to have NY say goodbye to him by the same grand exit he saw toward Gretzky.
Would it be too bold to assume he had the average human reality check and realized that with father time creeping up it was time to do something else with his life?
..and that something to be kissing someone's ass?
Most importantly if you're comparing Messier and anyone in how they deal with a group, I have to ask again, do you even remember Mark Messier or those you're comparing??? Or are you just reading off the all time stats columns?
No shame in not remembering, just don't put down what you don't remember.
you mean the moves that helped doom this franchise from the late 90's until after the lockout?
Thanks, but this cements my decision to pass on him in a hurry.
What moves are those? Last I checked, Messier was run out of town after the 1997 season (the last time the Rangers made the playoffs before the lockout), then Soupie was fired the next year, then Muckler came in, then him & Smith were 3 years later. By the time Messier came back in 2000, the team was already in the crapper. Only a couple years later, Leetch would become injury prone and Richter was already there. The team was in the pits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodent
Yes. Like driving Zubov out of town.
What? I think you're thinking of Colin Campbell. Messier has said many times that he loved Zubov and that he thought that Zubov was one of the most talented guys he's ever played with. Soupie thought Zubov was soft and a headcase.
Why is it difficult for some people to understand that a player's on-ice leadership ability and playing skills do not guarantee success as a front office executive/coach?
Just because a guy was a good leader (or a "winner") during his playing days doesn't mean he will be a good GM. I thought this was just common sense by now.
Not to knock you off your brilliant high horse, but it also doesn't mean he will be a bad coach or GM. What was that about common sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantes19
It's apples and oranges. Playing hockey and leading a team on ice vs. Being GM and constructing a team to be a winner. Those tasks require very different skillsets.
I don't understand why you would blindly "trust Mess" to run this team when he's shown no ability to run anything. I understand that you said "in the future", but you didn't give any kind of reasoning as to what makes you so confident that he'll be a good GM.
Yeah I guess being a and also THE leader of 6 Stanley Cups is nothing. More common sense?
For the people that are crying Wayne Gretzky part deux(that's 2), good player doesn't equal good coach/GM, etc...I have to seriously ask, how old are you? Do you remember Mark Messier? Can you ever recall an interview from the days when he wasn't under someone's shoe?? Like when he was the head honcho??
...
No shame in not remembering, just don't put down what you don't remember.
I'm not really sure how this post supports the feasibility of Messier as a GM, but I'll tell you what I recall:
I recall Mark Messier being a truly great, inspirational player
I recall Mark Messier having no experience as a GM.
I recall Mark Messier having 2 years total of anything relating to front office experience.
I recall Mark Messier being the apprentice to and learning under Glen Sather, one of the worst GMs in recent memory.
I don't recall what Messier's playing days have to do with his ability to be an effective GM. Like I said before, they're two completely different sets of skills. A fiery personality & strong leadership skills as a player don't mean a whole lot when it comes to being GM.
) but just the way that Sather explains how he views certain situations is what bothers me.
