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Who's ready for a Mark Messier takeover?

View Poll Results: Mark Messier behind the bench
Time for the Captain to lead us to glory!!! 18 15.65%
Great Captain, not coach. 97 84.35%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-14-2011, 03:09 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
Best case against Mess so far is that he's learning from Sather, and even that's that's a poor one.
OK, how's this: on ice pedigree has little impact making a successful team builder and executive.

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03-14-2011, 03:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
Truthfully, there is nothin to really go by on the business side for the Messier argument. I mean on the ice we all know the guy was the full package. But, how that translates to the bsuiness side is anyones guess. As for right now, I am not sure what he even does for the team? I mean, he helped out on facoeffs I know that. I think he set up the garden of dreams foundation.

But was he instrumental in any trades or acquisitions?
Was he involved in any the draft?
Are there any targets on his radar that he wants to bring here?
Does he interact much with Tortorella?

I have no idea on any of these questions?
Those are excellent questions, but again, not any more against him than for him.

I really want the answers! Would you be pissed if we were lucky enough that someone stole the questions to actually get an answer?

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03-14-2011, 03:16 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
Not to knock you off your brilliant high horse, but it also doesn't mean he will be a bad coach or GM. What was that about common sense?


Yeah I guess being a and also THE leader of 6 Stanley Cups is nothing. More common sense?
Of course it doesn't directly mean he'll be a bad GM. Read my posts again - I don't believe I said he would definitely be a bad GM. I said that there's really no evidence that he would be a good GM.

You seem to have missed my point. As far as I can see, you haven't presented any evidence of Messier having or demonstrating the 'GM skills' needed to be successful in that position. He was "the leader" of Cup winning teams as a player, which is obviously much different than actually constructing those teams as a GM.

You keep referencing his playing career, which was great, but that's not really relevant to your argument. Set aside his playing career for a second; what management skills has he shown that make you think he would be a good GM?

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03-14-2011, 03:18 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
OK, how's this: on ice pedigree has little impact making a successful team builder and executive.
I don't know, but I think I've seen something like this before...
You're right, THAT'S the best case against him.

Still not a good one unless you're willing to:
-define what an executive does and why Mess can't do whatever it is.
-tell me what makes you think he would NOT be a good team builder based on what you have seen of him.

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03-14-2011, 03:23 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
I don't know, but I think I've seen something like this before...
You're right, THAT'S the best case against him.

How about this:

Why don't you tell us what the case FOR Messier as GM is? How about Messier as coach?

Convince us why he would be good at either.

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03-14-2011, 03:28 PM
  #81
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The arguments against him are horrid except that he has no experience. The arguments for him are also very few.

The fact is that Messier as a GM is a huge question mark. Anything else is just garbage talk because no one knows how well he'd do as a GM.

Many fans just don't want another bonehead running the team after Sather is gone, I can't blame them. However, with Dolan at the helm, you have just as good of a chance to hire someone like Bob Gainey.

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03-14-2011, 03:37 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
Those are excellent questions, but again, not any more against him than for him.

I really want the answers! Would you be pissed if we were lucky enough that someone stole the questions to actually get an answer?
Nope...Because cheaters always win!

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03-14-2011, 03:46 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
The arguments against him are horrid except that he has no experience. The arguments for him are also very few.

The fact is that Messier as a GM is a huge question mark. Anything else is just garbage talk because no one knows how well he'd do as a GM.

To me, the fact that he's a huge question mark would be a negative in and of itself, if he were interviewing for the GM job.

I'm not saying that Messier would certainly be bad; I've been saying what you said - that there's really no rational arguments as to why Messier would be good as GM.

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03-14-2011, 04:00 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
What moves are those? Last I checked, Messier was run out of town after the 1997 season (the last time the Rangers made the playoffs before the lockout), then Soupie was fired the next year, then Muckler came in, then him & Smith were 3 years later. By the time Messier came back in 2000, the team was already in the crapper. Only a couple years later, Leetch would become injury prone and Richter was already there. The team was in the pits.



What? I think you're thinking of Colin Campbell. Messier has said many times that he loved Zubov and that he thought that Zubov was one of the most talented guys he's ever played with. Soupie thought Zubov was soft and a headcase.
The moves that doomed this franchise during the 97-2004 dead era were made PRE 97.

Forcing a Young Nedved out of town without giving the kid a fair shake.

Yes, he can say now all he wants about wanting to keep Zubie, but he lobbied for Ulfie in the worst way. Nedved and Zubov for Ulfie and Lucky Luc = Brutal trade.

We can also look at the miserable Ferraro/Norstrom/Lappy/Lafayette for Kurri/McSorley/Churla

Then we can look at the signings of both Keane and Skrudland to "show" messier that we were serious about continuing the "push"

The pre-cup, we ship out King and Domi for Eddie O, who played 103 games for the NYR in 3 seasons


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03-14-2011, 06:50 PM
  #85
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Whenever Sather decides to part ways with the Rangers they should go after Jim Johannson from USA hockey.

And if Campbell really said that about Zubov, what a joke. He was good enough for Mike Keenan and Ken Hitchcock.


And StaalWars is 100% correct regarding Yzerman. Even an ambassador for the game such as Stevie Y, with all he learned in the Detroit front office, still wasn't handed a job there. And they trained him! It doesn't matter what name recognition you have--if there's a better option, either already with the organization or out there someplace else--then you haven't done enough to earn the position.

But no more 1980s Oilers cronies or former star players. I'm the biggest Messier fan around but I don't want him behind the bench or in the GM's seat until he's acquired years of coaching or managerial experience and a track record of success at some serious level. You have to pay your dues, even when you're a Hall of Famer. Not saying he can't do it (not going to tell that to the man who did what he did for this franchise), but this organization has got to realize that they need to stop giving people positions based on former glory and focus on hard work and results achieved recently and not 25 years ago. It has to be someone with a strong enough presence to say enough looking back at 1994 and living in the past and start moving forward. Handling the managerial complexities of a post-lockout, salary capped NHL is still something that this organization has yet to master.

That and drafting well in the first round.

And signing free agents.

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03-14-2011, 07:13 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
Why is it difficult for some people to understand that a player's on-ice leadership ability and playing skills do not guarantee success as a front office executive/coach? Just because a guy was a good leader (or a "winner") during his playing days doesn't mean he will be a good GM. I thought this was just common sense by now.

It's apples and oranges. Playing hockey and leading a team on ice vs. Being GM and constructing a team to be a winner. Those tasks require very different skillsets.

I don't understand why you would blindly "trust Mess" to run this team when he's shown no ability to run anything. I understand that you said "in the future", but you didn't give any kind of reasoning as to what makes you so confident that he'll be a good GM.
good gms can do a terrible job. sather and burke are good examples of this. i dont see why everybody is so negative about this. why cant the guy take over and do a good job? if he isnt hired im fine with it, but im not buying into this whole mess would be terrible idea.

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03-14-2011, 07:19 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
To me, the fact that he's a huge question mark would be a negative in and of itself, if he were interviewing for the GM job.

I'm not saying that Messier would certainly be bad; I've been saying what you said - that there's really no rational arguments as to why Messier would be good as GM.
isn't any gm that is hired a question mark? your never guarenteed success and like i said before, even good gms can do terrible jobs. im not 100% for the idea, if there is a more promising qualified candidate im in favor of hiring the best man for the job. but all this mess would be terrible is not really based on anything. imo the guy will be good at whatever he does, he is that type of guy. again if it doesnt happen im fine with it.

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03-14-2011, 07:37 PM
  #88
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I need to get something straight, what does messier have in his resume that proves he could potentially be a great gm, as an even further stretch coach? Leadership? That's all that's being tossed around here as too why he could be this great gm. I really don't think people realize how hard it is to be a successful NHL gm which sather was. This isn't NHL 11 you can't just pool together the best players available and have a cup contender, I love all the airchair owners that peg mess for being the next great one.

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03-14-2011, 08:35 PM
  #89
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isn't any gm that is hired a question mark? your never guarenteed success and like i said before, even good gms can do terrible jobs. im not 100% for the idea, if there is a more promising qualified candidate im in favor of hiring the best man for the job. but all this mess would be terrible is not really based on anything. imo the guy will be good at whatever he does, he is that type of guy. again if it doesnt happen im fine with it.

Yes, any GM that's hired is a question mark to some degree. But Messier, at this point, is a question mark to the highest degree. He has no track record of any kind. Now, that doesn't mean that he'd automatically be terrible. It just makes me wonder what attributes he brings to the table as a front office guy that would make a team eager to hire him at this point?

Also, you say "imo the guy will be good at whatever he does, he is that type of guy." I just don't understand where this blanket sense of assurance comes from? What makes you think he will be good at whatever he does? I get that he's driven and athletically talented, but do we have any indication that he has the attributes necessary to be a good GM?

I think you're giving him a lot of confidence/leeway based on the fact that he was a great hockey player; yet, that aptitude as a hockey player doesn't really have any direct correlation to being a GM.

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03-14-2011, 08:59 PM
  #90
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I wish Mike Richter was a bigger part of the orginization and was being groomed as GM. Would have a lot more faith in him than Messier

When Messier named his father to the Team Canada Management for the 2010 World Championships it just struck me as the wrong move. Only value I could see Messier have would be as a recruiter.

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03-14-2011, 09:29 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Dantes19 View Post
Yes, any GM that's hired is a question mark to some degree. But Messier, at this point, is a question mark to the highest degree. He has no track record of any kind. Now, that doesn't mean that he'd automatically be terrible. It just makes me wonder what attributes he brings to the table as a front office guy that would make a team eager to hire him at this point?

Also, you say "imo the guy will be good at whatever he does, he is that type of guy." I just don't understand where this blanket sense of assurance comes from? What makes you think he will be good at whatever he does? I get that he's driven and athletically talented, but do we have any indication that he has the attributes necessary to be a good GM?

I think you're giving him a lot of confidence/leeway based on the fact that he was a great hockey player; yet, that aptitude as a hockey player doesn't really have any direct correlation to being a GM.
i dont really dont know how to explain why i would be confident in mess. the guy just comes off as a super confident person and one of the things i draw from that is that he will be good at whatever he does. no real need to talk about that anymore, just my personal opinion.

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03-14-2011, 09:31 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
OK, how's this: on ice pedigree has little impact making a successful team builder and executive.
Very true. See (Gretzky,Wayne)

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03-14-2011, 10:00 PM
  #93
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Player converted coach/GM resulted in a Stanley Cup for the Rangers once in their 85 year history.

Frank Boucher, after winning two Stanley Cups as a player for the Rangers, became GM and coach, and lead the Rangers to the 1940 Stanley Cup.

It doesn't happen often, with great success.

Typically, the guys who make the best coaches, are the guys who were not prominent players. Usually guys who make great coaches were role players, who learned a lot from watching the game, working hard to get what they could, learning game.

Herb Brooks comes to mind.

Being a great coach doesn't mean having the most bragging rights from their playing career. Often when a player was great, he makes a poor coach/GM. Its a different perspective, dominating on the ice contrast to leading those players from the bench.

Being a great coach can come from anyone, anywhere.

A great coach is like a great psychologist, tactition, student of the game, and leader, rolled into one.

A great GM is all that, plus a great business man.

Can Mark Messier be all that? Maybe. Who knows.

Should the Rangers put faith in a guy with no experience at either GM or coach at the pro level/junior level/college level, at a very critical stage in the team's development?

The short answer is no.

What ever faults Sather has/had, he's done some good things, the team is going in the right direction, and they need experience at the top right now.

One day, down the road, maybe Messier can step in. Before that, he should gain experience in both coaching and GM at the lower levels first. CHL/NCAA/AHL. Gain success there. And then think about moving up the ladder.

Not every situation will be akin to the Yzerman situation. He had a mostly constructed roster there in Tampa with Stamkos, St. Louis, Lecavalier, Hedman, and so on. He didn't have to do all that much. He didn't step in and build from scratch. There was a ton of talent there already, and a lot of the right kind of veteran leadership.

The Rangers are a young team on the rise. A couple bad decisions could derail that.

Now is not the time for an inexperienced GM/coach.

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03-14-2011, 10:58 PM
  #94
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Don't see what Sather's done wrong. He's fixed his mistakes and made this team better post-lockout. I'm fine with him until he wants to retire.

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03-14-2011, 11:41 PM
  #95
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How quickly some forget Mark as GM leading Team Canada to a 7th place finish in the 2010 IIHF World Hockey Championship.

Okay, that was sarcasm, but it wasn't aimed at Mark on a personal level. Call me crazy, but I am scared of old-style Rangers management. Nepotism, Cronyism. Reward for past glory.

I don't really look forward to it, mainly because what Messier is capable of is completely unknown territory to me. What does a 'special assistant to the GM' do? Has there been responsibility with accountability? I doubt it.

Or more accurately, I have no idea.

Edit: Wow did I get this question wrong. For some reason I was thinking GM. Guess I should have read all the posts


Last edited by trilobyte: 03-14-2011 at 11:45 PM. Reason: for being a numbskull
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03-15-2011, 06:39 AM
  #96
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Mark Messier is in his 2nd season as a member of the Rangers front office. Steve Yzerman had 4 seasons in a similar role with the Red Wings. Joe Nieuwendyk became a GM after a couple of seasons doing what Messier is doing. The ownership situation in Dallas has hurt his flexibility to make major moves. He took a chance on Lehtonen and he has played well for them. Nieuwendyk took a beating for the Neal trade but Goligoski has been the better player so far and Benn has thrived with the extra responsibility with Neal in Pittsburgh. Yzerman didn't have decision making responsibility in Detroit but he has done very good job with TB. Re-built their D with mostly free agents on short-term contracts and acquired Roloson without giving up much. You could bang out Nieuwendyk for Glennie who has not played well. Or passing up Fowler for Campbell. You could also bang out Yzerman for Connolly instead of Skinner. The scouting directors made those selections but the GM usually gets the credit or the blame.

Messier's cronies? You mean Brian Leetch who would like to be an assistant coach in the future. We don't need him working with the defense because he is Messier's crony.

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03-15-2011, 07:14 AM
  #97
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Don't see what Sather's done wrong. He's fixed his mistakes and made this team better post-lockout. I'm fine with him until he wants to retire.

Is this a joke? How long have you been following this team?

Sather' mistakes pre-lockout still continue to hurt this team today. Without those mistakes (or at least without as many), this current team would be in a much better spot. Refusal to rebuild 2000-2004, bad free agent signings, terrible drafting, terrible coaching hires, etc.

Sather's mistakes post-lockout also hurt the current team. Giving out terrible free agent contracts to people like Drury, Redden, and Boogaard hurts the team, even if someone like Redden is buried in the minors. Think about it: he's gone 11 years without providing the team with the most important piece of a Cup winning team (the #1C).

Glen Sather has made so many mistakes and has so many mistakes still un-fixed. I can't even fathom how someone could be fine with Sather being here until he wants to retire -- it's just baffling.

I think you really need to read the "Is there any chance Sather steps down" thread.

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03-15-2011, 08:06 AM
  #98
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Mark Messier is in his 2nd season as a member of the Rangers front office. Steve Yzerman had 4 seasons in a similar role with the Red Wings. Joe Nieuwendyk became a GM after a couple of seasons doing what Messier is doing. The ownership situation in Dallas has hurt his flexibility to make major moves. He took a chance on Lehtonen and he has played well for them. Nieuwendyk took a beating for the Neal trade but Goligoski has been the better player so far and Benn has thrived with the extra responsibility with Neal in Pittsburgh. Yzerman didn't have decision making responsibility in Detroit but he has done very good job with TB...
I understand what you're saying, but part of what concerns me is this:

--Nieuwendyk essentially learned under Cliff Fletcher and Brian Burke. Fletcher may not be the best GM in the world, but Burke is at least respectable & has somewhat recently built a team that won a Cup.

--Yzerman learned under Ken Holland, one of the best in the business.

--Messier is learning from Glen Sather, who I would argue is one of the worst GMs in the business.


I know that doesn't guarantee that Messier would be a terrible GM or a Sather clone, and getting experience is surely a good thing, but learning under Sather seems pretty questionable. I would worry about our next GM to be Sather-trained, or potentially having the same sort of outlook on how to run a team.


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Messier's cronies? You mean Brian Leetch who would like to be an assistant coach in the future. We don't need him working with the defense because he is Messier's crony.
I would just want to make sure they get the most qualified person possible for any potential opening. If it's Messier or Leetch, great, so long as they're the most qualified person for the job. At this current point, I would have to wonder if that would actually be the case.


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03-15-2011, 08:19 AM
  #99
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Of course it doesn't directly mean he'll be a bad GM. Read my posts again - I don't believe I said he would definitely be a bad GM. I said that there's really no evidence that he would be a good GM.

You seem to have missed my point. As far as I can see, you haven't presented any evidence of Messier having or demonstrating the 'GM skills' needed to be successful in that position. He was "the leader" of Cup winning teams as a player, which is obviously much different than actually constructing those teams as a GM.

You keep referencing his playing career, which was great, but that's not really relevant to your argument. Set aside his playing career for a second; what management skills has he shown that make you think he would be a good GM?
Actually, no, I'm not talking about his playing career. At all. This has nothing to do with his being the second most point getting player ever.
I'm referencing his attitude, persona, etc. He's a great figurehead. How he talks to people. How he can take over, take charge.

However, if anyone does bring up his hockey career it's probably to simply say he knows a thing or two about what it takes to be a success in the game. Not too much wrong with that, right?

I've seen him take charge of his teams, and considering the line-ups, I'd say if he can get the respect of the HHOFers around him, he can set a bunch of kids straight!

Now if anyone wants to say give Mess some more time, I couldn't possibly argue with that...but to say "no, don't want him, pass on a sure fire failure" is a failure of a statement IMO.

He's not a 1980s Oiler, he's a 1994 New York Ranger.

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03-15-2011, 10:20 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
Actually, no, I'm not talking about his playing career. At all.
Except that you have repeatedly referenced positive attributes of his playing career.

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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
This has nothing to do with his being the second most point getting player ever.
I'm referencing his attitude, persona, etc. He's a great figurehead. How he talks to people. How he can take over, take charge.
Do those qualities really make you think he would be a good GM? Sather had attitude and persona too, look how that turned out. You make it sound like a strong personality and the ability to get people's attention are the major attributes of a good GM.

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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
However, if anyone does bring up his hockey career it's probably to simply say he knows a thing or two about what it takes to be a success in the game. Not too much wrong with that, right?
The fact that he knows what it takes to be successful as a player does not necessarily mean that he knows how to effectively build a team as GM. You bring up his success as a player as if it has a correlation to success as a front office exec.

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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
I've seen him take charge of his teams, and considering the line-ups, I'd say if he can get the respect of the HHOFers around him, he can set a bunch of kids straight!
It's not a matter of just "setting a bunch of kids straight". How does the fact that he could "take charge" of a team indicate an ability to build a team?

By the way, this isnt' this quote you talking about his playing career? You say you've "seen him take charge of teams", which surely is a reference to his playing career, right? I thought you weren't talking about his playing career "at all".


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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
Now if anyone wants to say give Mess some more time, I couldn't possibly argue with that...but to say "no, don't want him, pass on a sure fire failure" is a failure of a statement IMO.
I think you're misinterpreting the point most people are making. I think most people are hesitant about Messier as GM because he lacks front office experience, and the experience he does have came as an understudy to one of the worst GMs of the past 10 years. I don't think many people are guaranteeing that Messier would be terrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
He's not a 1980s Oiler, he's a 1994 New York Ranger.
Another reference to his playing career. What does this have to do with his GM qualifications?


Last edited by Dantes19: 03-15-2011 at 10:45 AM.
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