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Old
03-13-2011, 07:12 PM
  #26
NugentHopkinsfan
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I really want Salo back at a much cheaper cost. He's so solid and still has the ability to play against top players. Yeah there's the injury concern but if we have great depth it doesn't matter. When healthy he is just so awsome.

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Old
03-13-2011, 07:14 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
At 36, he just can't play 82 games + playoffs with the intensity required of a top 6 forward.
He just turned 34 a few months ago.

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Old
03-13-2011, 07:45 PM
  #28
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He just turned 34 a few months ago.
Meh - I'm off by a year, I thought he turned 35 in December so he would be 36 next year. Still, 35 is about the age where production starts to decline.

While we have other inconsistent players (Raymond, Tambellini, Malhotra, Torres) I am more tolerant of inconsistency in a young player or when you can see that the players effort level and defensive play are at a high level. When Samuelsson disappears, you can see that he simply stops skating. Even last night, he got out worked on the first goal, and in 2 or 3 other CGY chances, his back checking was uninspired.

When he's on, he's on. But when he's off, he can be brutal.

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Old
03-13-2011, 08:04 PM
  #29
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He is uninspired right now. He's admitted it publicly. So far whenever we've need him to step up, he's stepped up.

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Old
03-14-2011, 04:44 AM
  #30
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not a particularly 'insightful' article. essentially just the same wild speculation that we all throw around on these boards. i don't even necessarily agree with many of the few things he actually does say either.

IMO, Tanev seems far from a lock for next year. he's be very very impressive. and certainly he's shown that he is capable of playing in the NHL, but unless he manages to bulk up significantly over the summer, i don't see it as a great fit for him, or the team. there are a number of things working against Tanev making the team next year...

a)he's still very much a developing player. top pairing minutes on the Moose is probably a better development option at this point, considering the *type* of player he is.

b)while he is a very promising player, i don't think he is at all the *type* of player the coaching staff would ideally want on that bottom-pairing. they're going to be looking for physicality and size...not really a role Tanev is ideally suited for at the moment.

c)they aren't going to carry him on the roster unless he is definitely going to be in the lineup pretty much every night. ie. there's almost no way that they keep him on as a #6/7 swap in/out type spare...because of point (a). and the staff have demonstrated that to them, Rome still sits ahead of Tanev on the depth chart in terms of NHL readiness and capability/responsibility/etc. so it seems unlikely that they'd sit Rome the bulk of games over Tanev as this point...and it would be foolish to sit Tanev in the press box all season.

d)perhaps most important, is the approach Gillis takes to depth, especially on the blueline. Tanev is a guy who will be able to shuffle up and down to the AHL/NHL as needed, as opposed to guys who would end up stuck in the minors a la Parent this year. so by stockpiling NHL-capable young guys like Tanev in the minors, Gillis has an added layer of depth that is probably very important to him.

So pencilling him in there is a bit odd to me. For sure he *could* be on the roster, but it seems far more realistic that someone like Parent would be the #6/7 guy. I suppose the math on it doesn't matter a whole lot as they both carry the same 900k salary...but if certainly has significant implications for the depth and structure of the defensive corps as a whole...which are ignored in the article.


he also seems to give the impression that Ehrhoff might sign for less than Hamhuis, which seems pretty naive. from my perspective, a matching contract to Hamhuis would probably be a homerun considering the price Ehrhoff could command on the open market. but again, all just speculation at this point and the playoffs could certainly change things. though i do agree with him that Ehrhoff is probably the top-priority over Bieksa.

however, i do not see it as impossible to retain both Ehrhoff and Bieksa...so long as Bieksa is willing to work for something more in line with that 'no more than Hamhuis' ballpark alluded to in the Ehrhoff case. there's zero reason for him to be earning more than Hamhuis at this point, and i don't think a $4M contract would be particularly unreasonable for either side...which would allow the Canucks to keep both and generally keep an impressive defensive group together.

and as for the idea that budgeting and the cap structure will remain the same as this year...that's a little bit foolish as well. the goaltending cap hit will remain the same for next year, and there's little reason for any significant increase in the cap hit for the forward group either. Hansen and Glass will likely command raises, but they aren't going to be big $$$ players...and IF Hodgson makes the team, his cap hit is still only a relatively small increase over Torres this year.

so if you want to go with the general approach used in that article...that basically leaves almost all of the potential cap breathing room we will get from an expected salary cap increase...to allocate towards the increasing salaries of the defense. and even a $3M increase in payroll on the blueline (IMO a realistic worst-case scenario), is relatively manageable. and with the cap-gymnastics this management team has pulled off in the last couple of years, i would expect they could find a way to massage out enough wiggle room to compensate for a few hundred thousand cap dollars here or there.

obviously i'm assuming in this, that Salo is the most expendable piece there, given his age and questionmarks around his health. i think he's a luxury that likely won't be available next season, even on a major pay-cut deal. and Gillis has in the past, shown a clear willingness to let older veteran players go when they don't fit the situation.

and of course if Ehrhoff decides that he is worth $6M+, that throws a massive wrench in the system. or if Bieksa decides that he is worth more than Hamhuis. so things certainly could go south with the situation in a hurry...but i find that far less likely than the article makes it sound. as the expected cap increase should very realistically be able to cover the (realistically) increased salary for Bieksa+Ehrhoff.

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Old
03-14-2011, 06:08 AM
  #31
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Erhoff will be back as well Bieksa.

I imagine Bieksa will take around his current price, and Ehrhoff might be looking for atleast 4.

This team cries dynasty, why would they quit on that? Bring em all back.

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Old
03-14-2011, 06:50 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ClasslessVillain View Post
Erhoff will be back as well Bieksa.

I imagine Bieksa will take around his current price, and Ehrhoff might be looking for atleast 4.

This team cries dynasty, why would they quit on that? Bring em all back.
If we can only offer Hoff a 4 year $20m contract while some other team is willing to drop a 6 year $36m contract... That's $1m more a year plus 2 extra years of security.

It really depends on what's on the table, I can see Bieksa and Hoff taking a slight discount to stay with the Canucks, but not a substantial one. We'll just have to see how many stupid GMs are out there, willing to pay Hoff $6m a year.

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Old
03-14-2011, 07:05 AM
  #33
JuniorNelson
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Bieksa is core. I cannot believe he'll go unsigned by Gillis.

Ehrhoff is key. I am suspicious that he wants to try free agency, though.

Salo might not be done, but I think it's even odds he retires.

Gillis will not give up on Ballard (remember Bieksa last season?).

Rome and Tanev are signed.

I would suggest there is room for Weber (there, I said it!), if Ehrhoff goes off to FA. I would point to the unsigned slots in the offensive corps as evidence. Malhotra is the only bottom six forward signed for next season.

In the entirely likely event of Gillis sniping Ehrhoff before he hits Ebay, this discussion can be simply, Weber replaces Salo. If Salo comes back, Weber will have to wait a year.

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Old
03-14-2011, 07:21 AM
  #34
Wilch
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This isn't the NBA, where loyalty is a joke and players will moan and cry for a trade.

So unless we overpay, we're not getting Weber.

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Old
03-14-2011, 08:52 AM
  #35
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I'll throw in my 2 cents.

AV and Gillis like Bieksa, and the new found maturity he's showing out there. (And his plus/minus is in the top 5 of the league right now). So, they let Ehrhoff test the UFA waters, and sign Bieksa at the end of the season.

Rome returns, Alberts is let go. Salo is open to negotiation, but I think we lose him too. Another team will make him an offer and the capologists for the Canucks will let him go. Tanev returns, of course.

I predict a few guys will get a look at the 5/6 spot, including try out signings.

Somewhere in all of this, the Canuck fan base gets a new whipping boy on D!!!

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Old
03-14-2011, 10:13 AM
  #36
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I just cannot see Salo coming back. Nucks cant pay him more and it'd be insulting to pay him 1.5, so I dont see it at all.

ALSO, with Bieksa: I dont think it'd be wise cuz to tie up 3-4 mil for several years for Bieksa, after a couple years EDLER will need a raise, and Bieksa's cash'll be needed for that. Gotta think of the future... its not just that Hoff needs a raise next year, Edler'll need one shortly after that.

If Edler-Hoff are the future, that needs to be paramount.

I see Edler-Hoff- Ham-Ball at all costs, everyone else on defense be damned!

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Old
03-14-2011, 03:14 PM
  #37
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Unless Tanev comes to camp next year and clearly demonstrates that he's one of the 2-3 best options on the blue line, there's almost no chance he's on the team to start the year. It simply doesn't jive with Gillis's professed and demonstrated faith in building NHL and AHL depth for the team at all positions.

I would think if Ehrhoff and Bieksa re-sign, it will be something like 5.25-5.5 million for Ehrhoff and 4.25 for Bieksa. That's fine next year, but could present problems when Edler needs to be re-upped for a potential monster deal.

However, I think Gillis wait wait and see what happens in the playoffs before he makes a final determination about what to do with next year's defense. If he can hammer out a deal that's well below market value before then, he probably does so, but otherwise I think it's going to be a bit before we hear anything.

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Old
03-14-2011, 05:50 PM
  #38
Catamarca Livin
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We would only miss his offensive production for the 50% of games he shows up to. I'm not a Samuelsson hater - I expect he will elevate his game in the playoffs and his experience and shoot first mentality is an asset to the team. But there are long, long stretches of games where he is either invisible or a liability.

At 36 35, he just can't play 82 games + playoffs with the intensity required of a top 6 forward.

I'd rather take a chance on a younger player - Higgins, Tambelini, Hodgson, Schroeder, Sweatt or Shirokov and use the cap savings to retain the depth on our blue line.
Isn't that the main thing. They will win the President's Trophy with Samuelsson in the lineup. He has played well in the playoffs before, while players like Raymond, Kesler, and Burrows have not. I am all for winning President trophies but i believe the goal is to be Stanley Cup Champions, and good playoff performers are required. Would you have wanted to trade Claude Lemieux because of his subpar regular seasons or would you be happy that he played well in the playoffs and would help your team win the Stanley Cup?

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Old
03-14-2011, 06:14 PM
  #39
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Are we talking about the same Mikael Samuelsson who, despite battling nagging injuries all season, has 18 goals and 47 points so far this season?

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Old
03-14-2011, 06:17 PM
  #40
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Samuelsson is actually on pace for more points than he had last season. And yet so many want to dump him. It's hilarious.

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Old
03-14-2011, 06:51 PM
  #41
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Samuelsson is actually on pace for more points than he had last season. And yet so many want to dump him. It's hilarious.
Agreed. I just don't get it. I do agree with LeftCoast's sentiment that Samuelsson can be extremely frustrating to watch for some stretches during the season, but what do you expect for $2.5 million UFA? UFA's are almost always on bad contracts but somehow Samuelsson is on one of the biggest steal UFA contracts in the league and it's still not good enough.

Plus being 34 with one year left on his deal he won't be bringing much back in a trade. Way more valuable to the Canucks IMO.

Canucks will have to replace Torres up front this offseason anyways so I don't think opening a new hole is a good idea when we are trying to win a Cup. Hopefully Higgins plays well and wants to stay to replace Torres-fits perfectly in the age group with the core.

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Old
03-14-2011, 07:04 PM
  #42
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Ehrhoff walks. He will get at minimum $5.5m. While the Canucks can afford that next year, the year after when Edler is up, I am not so sure.

I would re-sign Salo at $2.5-3.0 for 1 yr, and Bieksa at $4.0 for 4 years

Edler Salo
Hamhuis Bieksa
Ballard Rome
Parent (remember me?)
Tanev

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Old
03-14-2011, 07:09 PM
  #43
VanEric
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Are we talking about the same Mikael Samuelsson who, despite battling nagging injuries all season, has 18 goals and 47 points so far this season?
How many 20 goal/50 point wingers are there who can play the point on your PP, fit in seamlessly with your #1 line when needed, and have a significant playoff experience? How many are available for $2.5 million or less?

The only thing really missing from Samuelsson's season this year is that insane hot streak he went on when Burr got hurt.

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Old
03-14-2011, 08:20 PM
  #44
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So now we're pencilling Rome into the top 6? Yikes.

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Old
03-14-2011, 08:27 PM
  #45
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Bieksa is core. I cannot believe he'll go unsigned by Gillis.

Ehrhoff is key. I am suspicious that he wants to try free agency, though.

Salo might not be done, but I think it's even odds he retires.

Gillis will not give up on Ballard (remember Bieksa last season?).

Rome and Tanev are signed.

I would suggest there is room for Weber (there, I said it!), if Ehrhoff goes off to FA. I would point to the unsigned slots in the offensive corps as evidence. Malhotra is the only bottom six forward signed for next season.

In the entirely likely event of Gillis sniping Ehrhoff before he hits Ebay, this discussion can be simply, Weber replaces Salo. If Salo comes back, Weber will have to wait a year.
Are you seriously proposing a lineup of:

Edler-Weber
Hamhuis-Bieksa
Ballard-Ehrhoff
Rome-Tanev

????

Please elaborate on how you intend to fit them all under the cap, especially with likely raises to Bieksa, Ehrhoff and Weber.

The blueline you propose would cost over 26 million!

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Old
03-14-2011, 08:34 PM
  #46
Lz68
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Originally Posted by John Belushi View Post
Are you seriously proposing a lineup of:

Edler-Weber
Hamhuis-Bieksa
Ballard-Ehrhoff
Rome-Tanev

????

Please elaborate on how you intend to fit them all under the cap, especially with likely raises to Bieksa, Ehrhoff and Weber.

The blueline you propose would cost over 26 million!
I believe he saying that there would be room for Weber if we lose or move Ehrhoff.

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Old
03-14-2011, 08:34 PM
  #47
FiveAndGame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Belushi View Post
Are you seriously proposing a lineup of:

Edler-Weber
Hamhuis-Bieksa
Ballard-Ehrhoff
Rome-Tanev

????

Please elaborate on how you intend to fit them all under the cap, especially with likely raises to Bieksa, Ehrhoff and Weber.

The blueline you propose would cost over 26 million!
True, but would it not be awesome?

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Old
03-15-2011, 05:43 AM
  #48
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I believe he saying that there would be room for Weber if we lose or move Ehrhoff.
I interpreted it as him saying Weber would replace Salo.

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Old
03-15-2011, 05:56 AM
  #49
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I hate getting into these games but I really like Weber so let's dream.

Say we trade Edler + some combination of Raymond and/or Coho and/or Schroeder and/or a first.

Let Salo and Ehrhoff walk and resign Bieksa around 3.5-4 and sign Weber long term at 6.5 mil long term then we would have a very nice top 4 locked up long term.

Before you say our current situation is better or that injuries would kill that blue line, welcome to the cap world and what other teams all have to deal with. From a cap perspective our current situation is not sustainable. We need to get lucky with some cheap fa signings and build or d corps through the draft long term.

Like I say though, I am just having a rare dreaming moment Real life is always more complicated. Would be nice though.
a cap

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Old
03-15-2011, 07:36 AM
  #50
me2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyatt4God View Post
I hate getting into these games but I really like Weber so let's dream.

Say we trade Edler + some combination of Raymond and/or Coho and/or Schroeder and/or a first.

Let Salo and Ehrhoff walk and resign Bieksa around 3.5-4 and sign Weber long term at 6.5 mil long term then we would have a very nice top 4 locked up long term.
so something like

Weber for Edler + Coho + 1st


Ouch. That's is really rather bad for us even if Weber is more valuable than Edler. Next year and the year after Edler's locked in at $3.25m. That'll make him ~$3m cheaper than Weber for the next 2 years. Webere isn't a huge upgrade on Edler this, Edler is big, strong, defensively sound and was on 55 point pace.

That $3m is a huge amount of capspace
a) you could replace Raymond with a $5.5m PF
b) $3m is the difference between a terrible bottom 6 and a good one
c) extra top 4 Dman in the #5 slot
d) retaining players ie Chicago had an extra $3m in capspace they could have kept Ladd and/or Buff.

I don't think Weber is worth the ~$3m extra in capspace over Edler and definitely not with firsts and top prospects chucked in. Ballard+picks/prospect I'd do, but not Edler. Besides which Edler and Hamhuis are left side D, Weber is right side D (ie Bieksa/Ehrhoff/Salo's side and Ballard's alternate side) so you would want to add partners to Edler and Hamhuis not remove one of them.

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