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Dubinsky out of gas? or just the same ol?

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Old
03-15-2011, 02:32 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
I'm not in the "trade wolski camp", but I think your premise that he's better than dubinsky is terribly wrong. The reason people don't agree with you is because you're making stuff up. Dubinsky has been a better offensive player than Wolski in addition to being better at every other facet of the game.

Wolski's numbers since he's been on the team: 27 games, 5 goals, 11 assists. Extrapolated over 82 that equals, 15 goals and 33 assists for 48 pts. Dubinsky in 65 games has 20 goals and 25 assists. Extrapolated over 82 that equals 25 goals and 32 assists for 57 pts.

So is one more assist better worth 10 goals? If not than Dubi is has been the far better offensive player for us.
I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, or get in the middle of this at all, but providing "extrapolated" data is borderline useless when it comes to two players who are incredibly inconsistent. Dubinsky provides grit and physicality, and Wolski provides dynamic skill with the puck. Neither player, however, provides that regularly enough.

Anyway, I don't see how either player becomes expendable until someone coming up through the organization proves they can be a legitimate top-six LW, or we can find a trade that involves one of them and returns an upgrade at that position.

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03-15-2011, 02:45 PM
  #77
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BOOOO, BOOOO our current point leader and 20 goal scorer who has had to essentially lead the team as gaborik, callahan, frolov, prospal have missed a combined 100+ games...

Just remember, Dubi has only missed a handful of games, so while he was struglling to find offense with other guys out, all these guys that have been out have had the benefit of a roster with dubi on it while they've been healthy.

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03-15-2011, 03:22 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
I'm not in the "trade wolski camp", but I think your premise that he's better than dubinsky is terribly wrong. The reason people don't agree with you is because you're making stuff up. Dubinsky has been a better offensive player than Wolski in addition to being better at every other facet of the game.

Wolski's numbers since he's been on the team: 27 games, 5 goals, 11 assists. Extrapolated over 82 that equals, 15 goals and 33 assists for 48 pts. Dubinsky in 65 games has 20 goals and 25 assists. Extrapolated over 82 that equals 25 goals and 32 assists for 57 pts.

So is one more assist better worth 10 goals? If not than Dubi is has been the far better offensive player for us.
Wow. It took all of two posts for my words to get twisted. This immediate, knee-jerk spin cycle to defend Dubi is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

I did NOT say that Wolski is better than Dubi. I believe that they are both very good players with the potential to get better - and Dubi's overall potential may well be greater than Wolski's. (I would also trade either one for a legit first line player.) But that wasn't the point I was raising.

What I did was to simply compare the performance of the two players since they've been on the same team and wonder why one gets treated as if he's the second coming of Messier and the other, despite being the same age and statistically outperforming the other in their time on the same team, is already being written off in people's forecasted lineups for next year. In other words, I'm using the comparison not to dismiss Dubinsky - but rather to wonder why so many others dismiss Wolski.



(And by the way, you either need to compare them during the same period for your extrapolations or not at all - because the argument implodes spectacularly if you look at their career numbers. Again, it's entirely possible that Dubi may leapfrog Wolski in the future, but based on their numbers to date, Dubi loses all but the most cherry-picked comparisons based on statistical production.)


Last edited by BrooklynRangersFan: 03-15-2011 at 05:24 PM.
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03-15-2011, 04:43 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by bubba5 View Post
And should be paid that way. I guess guess he must still have a stress fracture then because his play shows it.
Do you know what a stress fracture is?? OF COURSE he still has it and is playing through it. You don't sit out 5 games with a stress fracture and come back fully healed.

Jesus people, this isn't that hard to figure out.

In case anyone needs help:
Quote:
Rest is the only option for complete healing of a stress fracture. The amount of recovery time varies greatly depending upon the location, severity, the strength of the body's healing response and an individual's nutritional intake. Complete rest and a cast or walking boot are usually used for a period of four to eight weeks, although periods of rest of twelve to sixteen weeks is not uncommon for more severe stress fractures.


Last edited by clmetsfan: 03-15-2011 at 04:49 PM.
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03-15-2011, 05:08 PM
  #80
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Yet he never has at any level. 80 points is an elite player. Elite players don't need all those circumstances to be elite players.
I feel you need more than one season of something like 80 pts to be elite. I mean really a guy like Dubs can have 1 80 pt season 1 elite year but not actually be elite. Plenty of players have done this before. It's silly to be so definitive...especially since Dubs gets better every year and gets hampered with a significant injury the last few years. It's easy to see where he may one year have a top notch 70-80 pt year. it's hard to see he becomes elite and does it year after year after year.

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Originally Posted by hightide85 View Post
as Motley Crue said: It's the Same 'Ole Situation....

Every year it's the same story... everybody knows it. You'll hear every excuse in the book. You'll hear how young we are and that we're rebuilding, you'll hear it all. The truth is our players aren't that good, and haven't been in 12 years with the exception a Jagr-fueled few years.

Nothing new, here....nothing new at all. Just a ton of average players and one overpaid, underachieving softee on the IR.
Sooo you think our team isn't young? Cause if you don't that';s fine...you don't know what you;'re talking about but that's fine. I think you are attacking fans for no reason in order to make yourself sound good. So when jags was around we were young and rebuilding? When we brought mess back we were young and rebuilding? When we were winning in 94 we were young and rebuilding? I mean could youa t least pinpoint a general era in the last 25 years we've been in a similar situation? Did we get soime high draft picks in early 00? Yea but we had players who asbolutely sucked and got paid plenty. had nothing to do with getting young or rebuilding. We tried to buy wins through FA exclusively and we blew at it. We drafted early and sucked at it. All the while having useless vets and overpaid vets...not young guys...not drafted guys...vets. Lundmark, Brendl, Blackburn, Jessiman never played for us( 1 season). The last 12 years are so not even comparable to right now it's not even funny. Yet people keep making the same lazy comparisons over and over b/c they can't stand having to wait for players to develop (amusing for HF)


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Old
03-15-2011, 05:20 PM
  #81
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I mean, all players go through streaks. I think that Dubinsky has been our best player for parts of the year, other times he looked inconsistent.

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03-15-2011, 06:30 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Wow. It took all of two posts for my words to get twisted. This immediate, knee-jerk spin cycle to defend Dubi is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

I did NOT say that Wolski is better than Dubi. I believe that they are both very good players with the potential to get better - and Dubi's overall potential may well be greater than Wolski's. (I would also trade either one for a legit first line player.) But that wasn't the point I was raising.

What I did was to simply compare the performance of the two players since they've been on the same team and wonder why one gets treated as if he's the second coming of Messier and the other, despite being the same age and statistically outperforming the other in their time on the same team, is already being written off in people's forecasted lineups for next year. In other words, I'm using the comparison not to dismiss Dubinsky - but rather to wonder why so many others dismiss Wolski.



(And by the way, you either need to compare them during the same period for your extrapolations or not at all - because the argument implodes spectacularly if you look at their career numbers. Again, it's entirely possible that Dubi may leapfrog Wolski in the future, but based on their numbers to date, Dubi loses all but the most cherry-picked comparisons based on statistical production.)

I hope you realize that there is more to hockey than Points i mean maybe i should run through the different facets that make a good 3rd line player but i hope you have an idea of that already. I will say Wolski just doesent have many of them, and to have the guts to compare value between Dubi and Wolski is insulting. Do u ever wander why two teams have dumped Wolski so early in his career. Check the other aspects of the game not points that make a 3rd liner and get back to me.

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Old
03-15-2011, 08:01 PM
  #83
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Good time to start a Dubinsky/Wolski debate...while Dubinsky is all over the ice leaving his imprint on the game in some capacity as he normally does - all while Wolski watches from the pressbox.

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03-15-2011, 09:08 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Wow. It took all of two posts for my words to get twisted. This immediate, knee-jerk spin cycle to defend Dubi is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

I did NOT say that Wolski is better than Dubi. I believe that they are both very good players with the potential to get better - and Dubi's overall potential may well be greater than Wolski's. (I would also trade either one for a legit first line player.) But that wasn't the point I was raising.

What I did was to simply compare the performance of the two players since they've been on the same team and wonder why one gets treated as if he's the second coming of Messier and the other, despite being the same age and statistically outperforming the other in their time on the same team, is already being written off in people's forecasted lineups for next year. In other words, I'm using the comparison not to dismiss Dubinsky - but rather to wonder why so many others dismiss Wolski.



(And by the way, you either need to compare them during the same period for your extrapolations or not at all - because the argument implodes spectacularly if you look at their career numbers. Again, it's entirely possible that Dubi may leapfrog Wolski in the future, but based on their numbers to date, Dubi loses all but the most cherry-picked comparisons based on statistical production.)
That is complete bunk. I just showed you in my last post how Dubi has been the FAR superior OFFENSIVE player, forgetting about all other aspects of the game. I took Wolski's numbers since he's been here, and Dubi's numbers for THIS YEAR and extrapolated them to a full 82 so we could more easily compare them. Facts don't support your preconceived narrative.

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03-15-2011, 10:20 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Good time to start a Dubinsky/Wolski debate...while Dubinsky is all over the ice leaving his imprint on the game in some capacity as he normally does - all while Wolski watches from the pressbox.
Hahahaha. Yes, the moment I saw the opening lineup, I knew that the Rangers were going to win, because it was so clearly set up to come back and haunt me.

(And while Dubi did play well, almost all the forwards did - I didn't think he was the particularly dominant force in the game that you apparently thought he was. I thought Boyle, Prust, Callahan, AA and obviously Gabby were all more impactful.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
That is complete bunk. I just showed you in my last post how Dubi has been the FAR superior OFFENSIVE player, forgetting about all other aspects of the game. I took Wolski's numbers since he's been here, and Dubi's numbers for THIS YEAR and extrapolated them to a full 82 so we could more easily compare them. Facts don't support your preconceived narrative.
You just re-emphasized the cherry picking nature of your comparison! Compare apples to apples (i.e. same time period, preferably the most recent one) and, if the numbers back you up, you've got a point. But you don't - the whole basis of your argument relies heavily on Dubi's white hot first couple of months, which goes a long way towards mitigating his very mediocre play for much of 2011.

If we're going to take random periods from the past, then why not go back to Wolski's stretch this time last year when he was a PPG over 18 games after being traded to the Yotes and then went on to score 4 goals in 7 PO games? Clearly based on those numbers he's a PPG player! Now, let's compare that to Dubi's first 19 GP this year, when he had 18P in 19GP... wait, he's a PPG player too! Holy cow, our offense is a juggernaut!

(And by the way, if you eliminate those 18 points in 19 games from months ago, Dubi has 27 points in his 46 most recent games, which extrapolated over 82 games is... *cue eerie music*... the same 48 points you extrapolated for Wolski based on his 27 most recent games.)

Again, I'm not trying to say that everyone's favorite son Dubi is a bad player. In fact, I think he's a very good (but not great) player. I also think that Wolski is a very good (but not great) player. Although their skillsets are different, they are perhaps the closest parallel on the team - the same age, the same size, brimming with untapped potential and plagued by inconsistency. Yet one receives blind adoration and the other is already being written out of next year's lineup. I just don't get it.


Last edited by BrooklynRangersFan: 03-15-2011 at 10:51 PM.
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Old
03-15-2011, 10:49 PM
  #86
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Dubinsky has done a good job these last few games. He's playing hurt, being a leader for the team, doing what he should be doing as a core player. I'd love to see what he could be doing fully healthy.

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03-16-2011, 02:03 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Hahahaha. Yes, the moment I saw the opening lineup, I knew that the Rangers were going to win, because it was so clearly set up to come back and haunt me.

(And while Dubi did play well, almost all the forwards did - I didn't think he was the particularly dominant force in the game that you apparently thought he was. I thought Boyle, Prust, Callahan, AA and obviously Gabby were all more impactful.)



You just re-emphasized the cherry picking nature of your comparison! Compare apples to apples (i.e. same time period, preferably the most recent one) and, if the numbers back you up, you've got a point. But you don't - the whole basis of your argument relies heavily on Dubi's white hot first couple of months, which goes a long way towards mitigating his very mediocre play for much of 2011.

If we're going to take random periods from the past, then why not go back to Wolski's stretch this time last year when he was a PPG over 18 games after being traded to the Yotes and then went on to score 4 goals in 7 PO games? Clearly based on those numbers he's a PPG player! Now, let's compare that to Dubi's first 19 GP this year, when he had 18P in 19GP... wait, he's a PPG player too! Holy cow, our offense is a juggernaut!

(And by the way, if you eliminate those 18 points in 19 games from months ago, Dubi has 27 points in his 46 most recent games, which extrapolated over 82 games is... *cue eerie music*... the same 48 points you extrapolated for Wolski based on his 27 most recent games.)

Again, I'm not trying to say that everyone's favorite son Dubi is a bad player. In fact, I think he's a very good (but not great) player. I also think that Wolski is a very good (but not great) player. Although their skillsets are different, they are perhaps the closest parallel on the team - the same age, the same size, brimming with untapped potential and plagued by inconsistency. Yet one receives blind adoration and the other is already being written out of next year's lineup. I just don't get it.
Dude, the only reason I'm not taking Wolski's season numbers is for those who think (rightfully so) that his time in the desert wasn't a good indicator of his actual ability. He got relegated to a small role, and was getting benched by the end. I'm only counting his time here as a favor to the Wolski-supporter. Now there's no reason to take only part of Dubi's season here. He's been here the whole time... and more data is always preferable to less data.

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03-16-2011, 07:53 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Hahahaha. Yes, the moment I saw the opening lineup, I knew that the Rangers were going to win, because it was so clearly set up to come back and haunt me.

(And while Dubi did play well, almost all the forwards did - I didn't think he was the particularly dominant force in the game that you apparently thought he was. I thought Boyle, Prust, Callahan, AA and obviously Gabby were all more impactful.)



You just re-emphasized the cherry picking nature of your comparison! Compare apples to apples (i.e. same time period, preferably the most recent one) and, if the numbers back you up, you've got a point. But you don't - the whole basis of your argument relies heavily on Dubi's white hot first couple of months, which goes a long way towards mitigating his very mediocre play for much of 2011.

If we're going to take random periods from the past, then why not go back to Wolski's stretch this time last year when he was a PPG over 18 games after being traded to the Yotes and then went on to score 4 goals in 7 PO games? Clearly based on those numbers he's a PPG player! Now, let's compare that to Dubi's first 19 GP this year, when he had 18P in 19GP... wait, he's a PPG player too! Holy cow, our offense is a juggernaut!

(And by the way, if you eliminate those 18 points in 19 games from months ago, Dubi has 27 points in his 46 most recent games, which extrapolated over 82 games is... *cue eerie music*... the same 48 points you extrapolated for Wolski based on his 27 most recent games.)

Again, I'm not trying to say that everyone's favorite son Dubi is a bad player. In fact, I think he's a very good (but not great) player. I also think that Wolski is a very good (but not great) player. Although their skillsets are different, they are perhaps the closest parallel on the team - the same age, the same size, brimming with untapped potential and plagued by inconsistency. Yet one receives blind adoration and the other is already being written out of next year's lineup. I just don't get it.
Looks to me like Wolski came flying out of the gate and tailed off while DUbs just keeps getting better and better...not to mention you can use your eyes every night. Watching them game in and game out there's no way i can say Wolski is a better player. not even close. You seem to be using stats alone to make your arguement and it's really weak.

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03-16-2011, 11:53 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Dude, the only reason I'm not taking Wolski's season numbers is for those who think (rightfully so) that his time in the desert wasn't a good indicator of his actual ability. He got relegated to a small role, and was getting benched by the end. I'm only counting his time here as a favor to the Wolski-supporter. Now there's no reason to take only part of Dubi's season here. He's been here the whole time... and more data is always preferable to less data.
I see where you're coming from now. Unfortunately, it does still have the effect of selectively including the hottest streak Dubi's ever produced in a less than full season sample size. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to simply include each player's last 82 GP?

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03-16-2011, 12:20 PM
  #90
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He's going to put up 50-60 points because hes a 50-60 point player, not because he isnt skating hard or trying.
This, and also the fact that today's 60 point player is yesterday's 80. Has anyone noticed what a chore it is becoming to be a PPG scorer in the NHL these days?

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03-16-2011, 12:55 PM
  #91
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Why does Dubi get held to a higher standard than everyone else by so many people? When the whole team struggles to score, Dubi still gets called out. He improved last year over the year before. He improved this year over last year. Next year, he will probably improve over this year. Stop complaining and be grateful that we have a player like him, who does a lot more than just score. Even when he's not scoring, he's still a pain in the ass to play against because he's so strong along the boards.

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03-16-2011, 01:04 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Dude, the only reason I'm not taking Wolski's season numbers is for those who think (rightfully so) that his time in the desert wasn't a good indicator of his actual ability. He got relegated to a small role, and was getting benched by the end. I'm only counting his time here as a favor to the Wolski-supporter. Now there's no reason to take only part of Dubi's season here. He's been here the whole time... and more data is always preferable to less data.
Dude, your still twisting numbers to make your point.

I will prove to you that Wolski is the better offensive player than Dubinsky.

Wolski - 80-23-42-65 = .81 ppg

Dubinsky - 69-20-24-44 = .64 ppg

These are last seasons stats. Wolski is better case closed.


See what I did there?

BRF has a very valid point, IMO.

(...and please don't flame me with grit, PK, etc posts)

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03-16-2011, 03:47 PM
  #93
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Dubinsky's game is very interesting, for example, last night he drove the Isles dmen crazy with his forecheck and puck control in the offensive zone. He gets points off that type of play but he is very much dependent on a guy like Callahan being able to convert on that possession. If you switch him for a more skilled forward you make the Rangers a much easier team to play against.

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03-16-2011, 05:48 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by LetsGoBlueshirts View Post
Dude, your still twisting numbers to make your point.

I will prove to you that Wolski is the better offensive player than Dubinsky.

Wolski - 80-23-42-65 = .81 ppg

Dubinsky - 69-20-24-44 = .64 ppg

These are last seasons stats. Wolski is better case closed.


See what I did there?

BRF has a very valid point, IMO.

(...and please don't flame me with grit, PK, etc posts)
Important to point you said "offensive players" If you're talking just solely offense than those numbers help vouch for wolski without taking into account linemates and other non numeric indicators. Of course PK and grit wouldn't exactly factor in if you're talking offense but when you talk player overall Dubs hands down.

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03-16-2011, 05:56 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by LetsGoBlueshirts View Post
Dude, your still twisting numbers to make your point.

I will prove to you that Wolski is the better offensive player than Dubinsky.

Wolski - 80-23-42-65 = .81 ppg

Dubinsky - 69-20-24-44 = .64 ppg

These are last seasons stats. Wolski is better case closed.


See what I did there?

BRF has a very valid point, IMO.

(...and please don't flame me with grit, PK, etc posts)
When both guys have more recent stats why would you go dig up old stats and then draw stupid conclusions from them? I used THIS YEAR'S stats, to draw a conclusion about the PRESENT. Would you take Mark Messier today over Dubi just because he was good for us back in '94?

Dubi haters don't know hockey. That's basically it. Probably the same people who gush over Avery.

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