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Spector's Hockey: Flyers Tight Cap Space for 2011-12

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Old
03-12-2011, 12:56 PM
  #51
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Furthering the sentiment that Carle and Coburn (and to a lesser extent Hartnell) are most likely to be moved - trades don't happen just because the Flyers say so. As much as it would be a benefit to the Flyers from a cap management point of view to move Briere, nobody is going to take on 4 more seasons at $6M+ AAV.

Carle and Coburn are young, have decent contracts, and will be in their expiring year. That's low-risk for another team to take on.

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03-12-2011, 05:09 PM
  #52
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and since Carle is a phenom offensively, he should be able to return at least multiple first rounders

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:11 PM
  #53
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At least 12.

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03-13-2011, 08:33 AM
  #54
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The better Mez plays the worse it looks for Carle.

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03-13-2011, 06:12 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yay third pairing minutes...!?!? really? And, no, Coburn was never that great away from Timonen.
Cool... so third pairing minutes are fine for evaluating Meszaros, but for Coburn they are meaningless. Awesome double standard.

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Do you not remember the **** show that was the Coburn-Carle pairing a couple years back? Coburn got ABUSED last year when he was away from Timonen.
Coburn is a different player than he was a couple years ago, and no he didn't. His strong resurgence away from Timonen is partially what prompted Laviolette to promote him back.

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Coburn has been playing well, but that doesn't mean he's fantastic. He's terrible offensively (terrible).
No he isn't (isn't). He doesn't take many offensive risks because he's focusing on defense, but he has become very effective transitionally in getting pucks to players who WILL take those risks. But oh no he doesn't get points!

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Who isn't taking into account older seasons when evaluating Meszaros v. Coburn? Way to set up a paper tiger there.
You aren't. You talk about how Coburn and Carle sucked previous years but fail to mention how Meszaros has his own history of sucking when, oddly enough, given more difficult even strength assignments (imagine that).

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Carle has played very well offensively at even strength... he's played like **** defensively... and the numbers back that up. For whatever reason behindthenet is messed up right now, but he has the worst GAON/60 of any of our D.
Given the toughest assignments. Stupid argument.

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And who is saying Carle hasn't been fine? He has... he's been very strong offensively, but he's not very good defensively... them just the facts.
Them's not the facts. He's been fine defensively.

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It'd be great if they could keep 'em... but if you're going to subtract players currently under contract for next year, who are you dealing before them? Larry44 would trade Mike Richards before Coburn and Carle, you too?

Right now, there's very little chance we can keep Ville Leino, for example (or sign another scoring winger). If you want to keep some semblance of our forward attack together, you're going to need to make some cuts... and we're spending a ridiculous amount on D right now.
Trade Versteeg, because he's terrible. Leino can be kept, and so can all 5 D.

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Old
03-13-2011, 06:37 PM
  #56
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You do realize that Leighton and Walker are signed for next year, right?
Yes, and they will just bury them in the minors

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Old
03-13-2011, 07:47 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Cool... so third pairing minutes are fine for evaluating Meszaros, but for Coburn they are meaningless. Awesome double standard.
1) On this site you will find me noting that Meszaros is terribly overpaid for what he's doing on this team. He is.

2) In this discussion, you will find me specifically citing Meszaros' special teams minutes as something that distinguishes him from Carle and Coburn if we're talking about dealing someone.

3) At no point have I EVER based this discussion on Meszaros' third pairing minutes. So, you're either creating paper tigers, or struggle at critical reading.

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Coburn is a different player than he was a couple years ago, and no he didn't. His strong resurgence away from Timonen is partially what prompted Laviolette to promote him back.
His strong resurgence? Coburn's numbers have been regressing for consecutive years now. He's still unpredictable defensively (sometime he asserts himself, sometimes he does not), and his offensive game has become a void...

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No he isn't (isn't). He doesn't take many offensive risks because he's focusing on defense, but he has become very effective transitionally in getting pucks to players who WILL take those risks. But oh no he doesn't get points!
He's *ing terrible offensively. He completely lacks any offensive creativity, and his only "good" offensive skill is the one-timer he developed a few years back... but now he never hits the damn net, so that's pretty much a waste of time.

Coburn is pacing to 17 pts on one of the best offensive teams in the league... that's pretty bad. He had 19 pts last year... 28 the year before that... and 36 the year before that. His offensive game has disappeared.

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You aren't. You talk about how Coburn and Carle sucked previous years but fail to mention how Meszaros has his own history of sucking when, oddly enough, given more difficult even strength assignments (imagine that).
Meszaros was overpaid in TB, but he didn't suck there... all you're proving here is that you're ignorant. All of his peripheral numbers were solid down there, he just wasn't producing offensively like they hoped.

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Given the toughest assignments. Stupid argument.
Then why aren't the folks he's on the ice with displaying similar numbers? It isn't a stupid argument just because you're incapable of understanding the point.

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Them's not the facts. He's been fine defensively.
He hasn't. The team has been OBSCENELY good offensively with Carle on the ice this year (sadly behindthenet is still down, or I'd put the empirical data in front of you). If you want to make an argument for Carle THAT is what you hang your hat on, the Flyers score A LOT of goals with him on the ice... they also get scored on a lot.

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Trade Versteeg, because he's terrible. Leino can be kept, and so can all 5 D.
Versteeg is acclimating... he's also a versatile wing that can play Richards' game with him.

However, it's fine to suggest he might be moved... doesn't change the original point, which is that both Carle and Coburn are on the list of expendable players on this roster.

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Old
03-13-2011, 08:38 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Meszaros was overpaid in TB, but he didn't suck there... all you're proving here is that you're ignorant. All of his peripheral numbers were solid down there, he just wasn't producing offensively like they hoped.
Yes, he did. He was doing exactly what he's been doing in Philadelphia of late, except he was doing it for well over 20 minutes a night as opposed to just 20 minutes a night.

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03-13-2011, 09:10 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
1) On this site you will find me noting that Meszaros is terribly overpaid for what he's doing on this team. He is.

2) In this discussion, you will find me specifically citing Meszaros' special teams minutes as something that distinguishes him from Carle and Coburn if we're talking about dealing someone.

3) At no point have I EVER based this discussion on Meszaros' third pairing minutes. So, you're either creating paper tigers, or struggle at critical reading.
Yes you are. You said that Meszaros is a lot better than Carle defensively and a lot better than Coburn offensively. Also, when citing Meszaros's 2nd unit special teams as the reason why he's more valuable, you're that he is equal to or better than Carle or Coburn even strength.

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His strong resurgence? Coburn's numbers have been regressing for consecutive years now. He's still unpredictable defensively (sometime he asserts himself, sometimes he does not), and his offensive game has become a void...
Yes. I'm talking about the end of last year when Krajicek was paired with Timonen and Coburn was put on the third pairing. He he turned his game around there and played really well, whether you choose to remember or not.
And no, he's been great defensively this season, and he has been "asserting himself" consistently.

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He's *ing terrible offensively. He completely lacks any offensive creativity, and his only "good" offensive skill is the one-timer he developed a few years back... but now he never hits the damn net, so that's pretty much a waste of time.
That's annoyingly oversimplified. Read what I wrote. It's not his role to add "offensive creativity."

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Coburn is pacing to 17 pts on one of the best offensive teams in the league... that's pretty bad. He had 19 pts last year... 28 the year before that... and 36 the year before that. His offensive game has disappeared.
WOW POINTS

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Meszaros was overpaid in TB, but he didn't suck there... all you're proving here is that you're ignorant. All of his peripheral numbers were solid down there, he just wasn't producing offensively like they hoped.
No, he was bad. Maybe you didn't watch him play enough.

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Then why aren't the folks he's on the ice with displaying similar numbers? It isn't a stupid argument just because you're incapable of understanding the point.
Because his partner was injured for a good portion of the season and his partner is a very good hockey player.

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He hasn't. The team has been OBSCENELY good offensively with Carle on the ice this year (sadly behindthenet is still down, or I'd put the empirical data in front of you). If you want to make an argument for Carle THAT is what you hang your hat on, the Flyers score A LOT of goals with him on the ice... they also get scored on a lot.
He's hasn't been nearly as bad defensively as people make him out to be, and much of the reason why the team scores so much when he's on the ice is due to how much he helps their puck control.
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Versteeg is acclimating... he's also a versatile wing that can play Richards' game with him.
I want to vomit.
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However, it's fine to suggest he might be moved... doesn't change the original point, which is that both Carle and Coburn are on the list of expendable players on this roster.
Your original point was that they are "by far" the most likely to be moved. And no matter how you want spin it, anyone playing 20+ minutes a night is not "expendable", especially when there's nobody in the wings to replace them. Removing any of those 5 D will make the team significantly worse. That includes Meszaros.

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Old
03-13-2011, 10:32 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Yes, he did. He was doing exactly what he's been doing in Philadelphia of late, except he was doing it for well over 20 minutes a night as opposed to just 20 minutes a night.
He didnt get many points, but his Hits and blocks were great in TB.

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Yes you are. You said that Meszaros is a lot better than Carle defensively and a lot better than Coburn offensively.
Those are both true

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Old
03-13-2011, 11:05 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Yes, he did. He was doing exactly what he's been doing in Philadelphia of late, except he was doing it for well over 20 minutes a night as opposed to just 20 minutes a night.
He isn't a 4M defenseman... there's a big difference between sucking and what Meszaros was doing. His defensive metrics, for example, were better in TB than Carle has been putting up this year on the best team in the East.

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Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Yes you are. You said that Meszaros is a lot better than Carle defensively and a lot better than Coburn offensively. Also, when citing Meszaros's 2nd unit special teams as the reason why he's more valuable, you're that he is equal to or better than Carle or Coburn even strength.
That isn't equating the value of their even strength minutes... hell, that isn't even making a critical analysis of their even strength minutes. That's noting that Meszaros is an all situations player, which neither Carle or Coburn are.

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Yes. I'm talking about the end of last year when Krajicek was paired with Timonen and Coburn was put on the third pairing. He he turned his game around there and played really well, whether you choose to remember or not.
And no, he's been great defensively this season, and he has been "asserting himself" consistently.
With Timonen... maybe you forget Coburn getting gutted like a dead fish by Chicago whenever he was on the ice away from Timonen. And, no, he hasn't been "great defensively" this season. He's been better than in the past, but he's still been up and down.

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That's annoyingly oversimplified. Read what I wrote. It's not his role to add "offensive creativity."
What you wrote was evading the fact that he sucks defensively by making an excuse for his lack of offensive skill.

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WOW POINTS
Strangely, scoring goals is the metric for offense in the NHL... since that's, ya know, how we keep track of such things.

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No, he was bad. Maybe you didn't watch him play enough.
The entire team was bad... he wasn't as bad as he's made out to be. Overpaid? Absolutely... still is overpaid.

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Because his partner was injured for a good portion of the season and his partner is a very good hockey player.
So Matt Carle's good defensive numbers are the product of his partner? I agree...

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He's hasn't been nearly as bad defensively as people make him out to be, and much of the reason why the team scores so much when he's on the ice is due to how much he helps their puck control.
I agree... Carle has very good offensive chops. However, he also has terrible defensive chops.

He has been our worst defenseman from a defensive perspective.

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I want to vomit.
Trash can.

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Your original point was that they are "by far" the most likely to be moved. And no matter how you want spin it, anyone playing 20+ minutes a night is not "expendable", especially when there's nobody in the wings to replace them. Removing any of those 5 D will make the team significantly worse. That includes Meszaros.
This might be hard for you... but I want you to sit and think. In an ideal world, we don't move any of 'em. In the real world, however, we might need to shed some salary. Look at the roster, and create a list of least-likely to most-likely players to be traded.

Carle and Coburn will be at the top of the list for most likely. That isn't a critique of 'em, it's reality.

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Old
03-14-2011, 02:17 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That isn't equating the value of their even strength minutes... hell, that isn't even making a critical analysis of their even strength minutes. That's noting that Meszaros is an all situations player, which neither Carle or Coburn are.
Well, you're right about it not making a critical analysis. If you're saying that playing on the 2nd unit of mediocre special teams is more important than top 4 minutes with.

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With Timonen... maybe you forget Coburn getting gutted like a dead fish by Chicago whenever he was on the ice away from Timonen. And, no, he hasn't been "great defensively" this season. He's been better than in the past, but he's still been up and down.
There's really no convincing you. If you want to see Coburn as a bad player, there's nothing I can do about that. Fortunately, Laviolette knows his value which is why he keeps giving him important defensive assignments.

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What you wrote was evading the fact that he sucks defensively by making an excuse for his lack of offensive skill.
This sentence makes no sense.

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Strangely, scoring goals is the metric for offense in the NHL... since that's, ya know, how we keep track of such things.
So annoying. Every defenseman's primary contribution to offense is in the transition. Timonen+Coburn does that well. He's making the right decisions and moving the puck even if it doesn't translate to assists. And referring to it as "scoring goals" is just weaselly on multiple levels.

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The entire team was bad... he wasn't as bad as he's made out to be. Overpaid? Absolutely... still is overpaid.
No, bad. And if he's overpaid, does that make Coburn and Carle REALLY overpaid, since you think they will be cap casualties? I doubt many would agree that they are.

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So Matt Carle's good defensive numbers are the product of his partner? I agree...
Why can't both players contribute? You argue like a child.

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I agree... Carle has very good offensive chops. However, he also has terrible defensive chops.

He has been our worst defenseman from a defensive perspective
Puck possession is both offense and defense. And even if you think Meszaros is some golden god, it should be clear Sean O'Donnell is our worst defenseman defensively.

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Trash can.
Versteeg's face.

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This might be hard for you... but I want you to sit and think. In an ideal world, we don't move any of 'em. In the real world, however, we might need to shed some salary. Look at the roster, and create a list of least-likely to most-likely players to be traded.

Carle and Coburn will be at the top of the list for most likely. That isn't a critique of 'em, it's reality.
I want you to sit and think. Do you seriously think a mediocre third liner is worth more than a D who plays 20+ minutes a night? Flyers can, and should, keep all of them.
And, if by some crazy reason, they have to trade one, it should be the one who is most easily replaced. That would be the one who matches up against ****ty players on the third pairing.

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Old
03-14-2011, 09:44 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Well, you're right about it not making a critical analysis. If you're saying that playing on the 2nd unit of mediocre special teams is more important than top 4 minutes with.
It isn't necessarily... but Meszaros is more than capable of filling Coburn's role. It's the fact that he plays the PK, too, that is actually important. Unlike Coburn and Carle, he plays in all situations for this club.

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There's really no convincing you. If you want to see Coburn as a bad player, there's nothing I can do about that. Fortunately, Laviolette knows his value which is why he keeps giving him important defensive assignments.
Lavi makes the best set of pairings he can. Coburn has not worked away from Timonen, so keeping him with him makes logical sense for the team... Timonen dictates their matchups, not the other way around.

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This sentence makes no sense.
There was a typo... you can work through it, I'm sure.

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So annoying. Every defenseman's primary contribution to offense is in the transition. Timonen+Coburn does that well. He's making the right decisions and moving the puck even if it doesn't translate to assists. And referring to it as "scoring goals" is just weaselly on multiple levels.
No, Coburn does not do that well. The team does not score much when he's on the ice compared to others, and he does very little facilitate the team scoring.

And there's nothing "weaselly" about tying offense to scoring goals... the point of offense is to score goals.

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No, bad. And if he's overpaid, does that make Coburn and Carle REALLY overpaid, since you think they will be cap casualties? I doubt many would agree that they are.
Yes, they're both overpaid too. Roughly similar amounts all things considered.

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Why can't both players contribute? You argue like a child.
Says the person that said, "Versteeg's face." Moreover, that comment doesn't even make sense.

Both players do contribute... but the point was that Carle gets lit up defensively when he's on the ice... his partner does not. Why is that?

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Puck possession is both offense and defense. And even if you think Meszaros is some golden god, it should be clear Sean O'Donnell is our worst defenseman defensively.
I don't think Meszaros is some golden God, I just think he's more valuable to this team than Carle and Coburn.

Matt Carle gets scored on more than OD. A lot more. Carle is a better D all-around because he produces more offense.

Quote:
Versteeg's face.
If homoerotic smut is your thing...

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I want you to sit and think. Do you seriously think a mediocre third liner is worth more than a D who plays 20+ minutes a night? Flyers can, and should, keep all of them.
And, if by some crazy reason, they have to trade one, it should be the one who is most easily replaced. That would be the one who matches up against ****ty players on the third pairing.
So, I guess the real problem is that you really don't understand our salary cap situation and/or roster.

Versteeg is not a "mediocre 3rd liner." There aren't that many guys in this league that post 20 goals consistently.

So, here are the sub-top 6 talent that you have to pick from to trade that are under contract next year: Betts (700K), Shelley (1.1M), and Lappy (1.16M and won't be traded for obvious reasons). We have 10 forwards under contract... only 9, really, when you account for Lappy most likely not playing.

So, again, you need to take the time to go through the roster and their respective contract. If you want to argue that Meszaros should be moved rather than your man crushes, that's fine, but Larry44's original point remains idiotic.

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03-14-2011, 09:52 AM
  #64
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I don't understand why it is so hard to grasp that Meszaros can play EV, PK, PP where as Carle can only play PP, EV and Coburn only EV and PK. All you have to do is watch a game, or look at TOI

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03-14-2011, 03:40 PM
  #65
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I don't understand why it is so hard to grasp that Meszaros can play EV, PK, PP where as Carle can only play PP, EV and Coburn only EV and PK. All you have to do is watch a game, or look at TOI
Some people hate Meszaros cause hes on our third pairing and his contract. It's ludacris.

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03-14-2011, 03:55 PM
  #66
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Some people hate Meszaros cause hes on our third pairing and his contract. It's ludacris.
I'm not a big fan of Meszaros' contract, and the early season love-fest was a bit over the top... but, similarly, it's worth noting his contributions to this team relative to other D we have. Especially if we're considering Meszaros at 4M v. Carle at 3.4M... I prefer Meszaros, just because he isn't quite the defensive disaster that Carle is. That being said, however, Carle has been extremely effective creating even strength offense this year... we just need more out of him on the PP.

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03-15-2011, 09:43 AM
  #67
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Given the contract structure of the guys we have signed for next season it's fairly obvious that Carle and Coburn are the most likely guys to be traded if we decide to shed salary to fit Leino (or some other top 9 forward) under the cap. I'm not so sure I would do that myself however. Carle is probably the guy I'd look to trade myself, but I think I'd rather have him on the team than Leino given what other players we have.

Anyways, there's a whole playoffs to finish before deciding these things.

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03-15-2011, 11:03 AM
  #68
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He said she said...

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03-16-2011, 10:35 AM
  #69
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Remove contracts from the equation, Mezaros is a better all around defenseman this year than Carle or Coburn if you evaluate them individually. In relation to their defensive pairings, quality of opposition, special teams contributions, etc. Once you factor salary into the mix it brings them all closer in value. Versatility is the deciding factor for me. Mezaros is capable of being above average in more situations. His strength comes from this and not just individual facets of the game. Carle and Coburn have their strengths slanted to opposite ends of the spectrum, while still being average in their lesser roles.

Keeping all 3 would be ideal. It allows us to have, without much question in my mind, the best top 5 defensive depth in the league. I think this, along with our team defense aided by the forwards, to protect what is otherwise a less than elite goalie situation.

I am on the bandwagon with our defense standing pat in roster next year, retaining Powe and Leino as priorities.

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03-16-2011, 10:43 AM
  #70
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keeping Leino and 5 big D is close to impossible though. Unless you move Versteeg or another forward

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Old
03-16-2011, 01:11 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
keeping Leino and 5 big D is close to impossible though. Unless you move Versteeg or another forward
And the only one to fit that mold that gives cap flexibility is Hartnell.

Hartnell
Versteeg
Coburn
Carle

At least one of those 4 has to go to re-sign Leino and fill out the lineup card next year.

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