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Old
03-13-2011, 11:03 AM
  #51
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I'd put Bure in front...World Jr's and Nagano come to mind.

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03-13-2011, 08:23 PM
  #52
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Here is MY go at TOP 10, based on Pure Skill, Talent, Domination factor for their time. Not simply achievements- since a lot of Soviet top players played together, however if they played alone they wouldn't be as Legendary. For example, Kasatonov was stellar defensman of the 5, but when he played alone - simply could not reach the same level. Here is the list:

1. Kharlamov -breaktrhough forward, truly branded the "Russian Style" forwards for all the next generations- the talent he had was top 5 all-time
2. Tretiak -One of the, if not the Greatest goalies to ever play the game
3. Fetisov -Best Soviet/Russian defensman, also somewhat a first offensive D for soviets (Vasiliev was good all around)
4. Bure -It will be a long long time before someone has the skillset he posessed. Dominated his generation in that respect. Tikhonov said himself that Bure was better than previous KLM generation
5. Anatoly Firsov - My dad still talks about him non-stop. If it wasn't for him, one could almost say with certainty the Soviet dominance in Int. hockey during the 60's just wouldn't exist. Apparently best puck-skills of the time, but I haven't had a chance to see it.
6. Ovechkin -I would say he was the best in the world up until the end of last year, that says a LOT for someone who was 24 at the time, generation player and I think there is More to come, just ask Mr.Gretzky
7. Larionov -The Brain of the Soviet Red Machine, that's more than a prerequisite to be Legendary
8. Fedorov -At times he Dominated, and the POISE in the playoffs is unrivaled for a Russian<- Even when he played in Washington
9. Vasiliev- Best Soviet D before Fetisov, some say even better than Fetisov for a more solid Defensive game.
10. Makarov- Same as Larionov, but more explosive and less IQ

Some other notes:
Kovalchuk is definately top 20- he brought Russia back the prestige that they lost in 2000's. He is the Man now, its his time.

Anyway, thats my list, I'm sure lots will disagree- but its not easy this. I only saw a few of these guys really play.

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Old
03-14-2011, 07:45 AM
  #53
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Very good top 10. Altough Malkin dominated the 2008-2009 nhl playoffs more than Fedorov ever did in one season. But I agree as a whole.
But Ovechkin is WAY to high. Sucked in many Canada-Russia games...
Put Krutov in there please.

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Old
03-15-2011, 03:18 AM
  #54
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Larionov over Makarov, give me a break. If you take their NHL careers/longevity into consideration, he has a small case, but in the 1980s when playing for USSR/CSKA? Makarov was simply way superior.

Put Vyacheslav Bykov with Makarov and Krutov, and the line is at least as good as with Larionov. Heck, put Victor Tyumenev there instead of Larionov: the same thing - as was shown in the 1985-86 Super series*.

Opinions are opinions, though

EDIT
*not so sure how it would have worked in the long run


Last edited by VMBM: 03-15-2011 at 11:53 AM.
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Old
03-15-2011, 07:24 AM
  #55
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Well the reality is it was the kLm and it was dominant for 10 years...Larionov won everything from Olympics WorldsSr WorldsJr StanleyCups CorruptCup everything many times...History and reality says he must be there!

Tretyak Vasilyev-Fetisov Makarov-Larionov-Kharlamov !

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03-15-2011, 11:24 AM
  #56
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1. Fetisov
2. Kharlamov
3. Firsov
4. Makarov
5. Tretiak
6. Mikhailov
7. Maltsev
8. Petrov
9. Vasiliev
10. Bobrov

- If the list was just based on what I've seen, I'd probably have Makarov #1 - but it's hard to get much support for that (have to wait for 'Makarov reneissance!')

- for a long time I had Firsov 2nd, but again, I was pretty much alone with that, so... many Finnish ex-players who played against both Firsov and Kharlamov actually prefer Firsov

- from Tretiak I have seen some really wonderful performances, and some truly awful ones - I'm still not quite sure what to make of him

- Mikhailov may not do so well in the 'pure skill' department, but based on the numerous games I've seen from 1970s, he should definitely be in the top 10 IMO; he was a clutch player and awesome around the net

- Petrov seems to be a real ugly duckling, even though according to the available numbers, he is the all-time top scorer in Soviet league history (711 points compared to 675 pts for Mikhailov and 507 pts for Kharlamov, for example) . Didn't maybe have the greatest vision of all the Russian centers, but he was a good passer, effective playmaker and a strong defensive player and penalty killer. The lack of individual awards hurt him a bit.

- Bobrov is there because of his pioneering work


Last edited by VMBM: 03-15-2011 at 11:30 AM.
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Old
03-15-2011, 05:45 PM
  #57
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I like your list, but you really don't think Bure has what it takes to be in the top 10? Even in the achievements department, no other Russian could score like him in the NHL. Aesthetically speaking Lemieux and Gretzky could do wonders like him, but the skating?.. hmmn

I'll second Tretiak having questionable games. But then what goalie didn't eh?

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Old
03-16-2011, 02:34 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I like your list, but you really don't think Bure has what it takes to be in the top 10? Even in the achievements department, no other Russian could score like him in the NHL. Aesthetically speaking Lemieux and Gretzky could do wonders like him, but the skating?.. hmmn

I'll second Tretiak having questionable games. But then what goalie didn't eh?
As an old geezer, I tend to favour the players from the 'good ol' times'. In fact, when it says "top 10 Russian" or something, my mind somehow interprets it as "top 10 Soviet"

Deep in my heart, I would have to say that Fedorov was probably a better center than Petrov, and so forth. I'm still not sure about Bure in the top 10, though.

I'd say that in Tretiak's career the good definitely outweighs the bad. He never played for a weak team(s), but he did save USSR's/CSKA's arse quite a few times. And he had that 'aura'; i.e. I think many Canadian players, for example, were somewhat intimidated by him/by his reputation.

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Old
03-16-2011, 07:28 AM
  #59
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I'd say Tretyak was most of the time splendid but he never was a dominator like Hasek was in the late 90's let's say...

I like your top 10.But Larionov needs to be there he's the most decorated Soviet-
Russian player ever!

The problem with post-Soviet players is that they never fulfilled their potential in nhl to the max or never fulfilled their potential to the max for Russia...

Take Fedorov awesome nhl career(Hart+3Cups) but just ok for Russia...
Bure had a very good nhl career(injuries) and you could say very good for Russia in 3 U20 and Nagano.

So would any of them make a top 10? Bure maybe at 10.

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Old
03-16-2011, 03:39 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushkin View Post
I'd say Tretyak was most of the time splendid but he never was a dominator like Hasek was in the late 90's let's say...

I like your top 10.But Larionov needs to be there he's the most decorated Soviet-
Russian player ever!

The problem with post-Soviet players is that they never fulfilled their potential in nhl to the max or never fulfilled their potential to the max for Russia...

Take Fedorov awesome nhl career(Hart+3Cups) but just ok for Russia...
Bure had a very good nhl career(injuries) and you could say very good for Russia in 3 U20 and Nagano.

So would any of them make a top 10? Bure maybe at 10.
This is difficult because we're comparing different eras AND leagues. Also, do we put more emphasis on career or peak value?

What about someone like Ovechkin? He's been average for the national team but already during his short career has widely been considered the best player in the game on numerous occasions.
For instance Maltsev had a better/more successful career, but at no time was he ever a better player than Ovechkin or Bure.

I rank higher for peak performance (but that level of play must be sustained for a reasonable number of years)

1. Fetisov
2. Kharlamov
3. Firsov
4. Tretiak
5. Makarov
6. Ovechkin
7. Fedorov
8. Bure
9. Mikhailov
10. Vasiliev

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Old
03-16-2011, 03:41 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerwielder View Post
1. Fetisov
2. Mikhailov
3. Makarov
4. Kharlamov
5. Maltsev
6. Krutov
7. Fedorov
8. Petrov
9. Firsov
10. Starshinov
11. Kasatonov
12. Bure
13. Bykov
14. Vasilyev
15. Anisin
16. Lebedev
17. Kapustin
18. Alexandrov
19. Mogilny
20. Lutchenko
21. Larionov
22. Tretiak
23. Yakushev
24. Shalimov
25. Bilyaletdinov
26. Markov
27. Konstantinov
28. Balderis
29. Tsygankov
30. Vikulov
31. Shadrin
32. Ragulin
33. Zhluktov
34. Bobrov
35. Vyacheslav Kozlov
36. Liapkin
37. Datsyuk
38. Alexandr Semin
39. Shepelev
40. Skvortsov
41. Kamensky
42. Varnakov
43. Khabibulin
44. Gusev
45. Semenov
46. Svetlov
47. Kovalchuk
48. Ovechkin
49. Nabokov
50. Malkin
Seriously?

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Old
03-16-2011, 04:51 PM
  #62
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Very good top 10 Zine.

I think everyone would agree on at least those 6 for a top 10 Tretyak Vasilyev Fetisov Kharlamov Firsov Makarov.

But a center is missing! who's your #1 ? Fedorov?(His play for Russia has never been really good... though)

Where would you put Larionov?

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03-16-2011, 05:03 PM
  #63
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It's interesting how in such a long history of Soviet/Russian hockey, there is no clear #1. Fetisov seems to be consistently in top 3 or 5 though.

For Canada, you can clearly say its Gretzy then everyone else.

Peak performance wise, did Russia ever have anyone as dominant as Ovechkin? #1 for the current ERA. Its always between him and Crosby. He might not be worth top 10 yet, but if he continues at roughly the same pace... who knows, he has the potential to be #1, I think.

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03-16-2011, 05:06 PM
  #64
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I think it's a bit too early to put OV in the top 10.

As far as Centers go, I would put Petrov ahead of Larionov. I think people underrate Petrov. He was kind of overshadowed by his line-mates, but he himself was an excellent all-around player. He was kind of a Pavel Datsyuk of his day.

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03-16-2011, 05:11 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
It's interesting how in such a long history of Soviet/Russian hockey, there is no clear #1. Fetisov seems to be consistently in top 3 or 5 though.

For Canada, you can clearly say its Gretzy then everyone else.

Peak performance wise, did Russia ever have anyone as dominant as Ovechkin? #1 for the current ERA. Its always between him and Crosby. He might not be worth top 10 yet, but if he continues at roughly the same pace... who knows, he has the potential to be #1, I think.
There was this fella by the name of Kharlamov.

He was kind of the Sandy Koufax of Hockey. He got into two separate car accidents. One in 1976 that robbed some of his speed, the other in '81 killed him.

His peak didn't last long, but there is a reason he is always among the top of these lists.

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03-17-2011, 07:13 AM
  #66
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Well it's fairly safe to say Tretyak Fetisov Kharlamov are the best Russsians at G-D-F...

Kharlamov was a dominant player for the Russian team unlike Ovechkin who $ucks most of the time.

1972 stole the show before the sport murder and 1976 Olympic Gold GWG...

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Old
05-14-2011, 08:42 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushkin View Post
Well it's fairly safe to say Tretyak Fetisov Kharlamov are the best Russsians at G-D-F...

Kharlamov was a dominant player for the Russian team unlike Ovechkin who $ucks most of the time.

1972 stole the show before the sport murder and 1976 Olympic Gold GWG...
A player that was very very good in the 60's.....Polupanov. Sorta a loose cannon in the system but should be on this list with Vikulov and the fantastic Firsov.

To me Firsov may be the best ever.


Last edited by Canada180: 05-14-2011 at 12:02 PM.
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05-21-2011, 07:35 AM
  #68
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Turns out to be a ridiculous thread. Quite a few ppl mentioning Bobrov.
I don't want to even start about the Top 50. It's to much talking and no sennse at all. Just too many names you wouldn't throw off the list. But there is an undisputed Top 2: Bobrov and Kharlamov. I'll take Bobrov over Kharlamov for his dominance. His goals average is beyond human. These two players stand alone up there. You can argue about the rest.

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Old
07-01-2011, 09:42 PM
  #69
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Let me comment on the "Best Russian Centerman of All Time."

Igor Larionov. His name is frequently mentioned, but let's face it: he was a very limited player. Don't get me wrong, I'm a lifelong Red Wings fan, and he was amazing with them and certainly with Red Army. One of the smartest players to ever play the game, an incredible passer, with the great vision, a terrific hockey sense, and pretty much the classiest player in history. Another thing that worked for him was that he mostly played in the systems that suited him (CSKA and DRW). But he was slow, had no shot, and could be intimidated. He was hardly ever a game breaker (except for that Triple OT in 2002).

Sergey Fedorov. Skills-wise, the best center Russia has ever known. Superb skating, speed, and shot. An elite two-way forward, an excellent passer and a frequent game-breaker. His work ethic, however, was questionable, in spite of turning it on when it mattered most (stellar playoff performances and 08). But when he tanked, he tanked (DRW 99-01, Anaheim/Columbus years) and was nowhere to be seen.

Pavel Datsyuk. Almost as good as Larionov in passing and game-sense, surpasses him in stick-handling, shooting, speed, and defensive play. Almost as good as Fedorov in skating and defensive play, surpasses him in work ethic and stick-handling. He doesn't have quite the pedigree as the other two (2 SC, Olympic bronze), but he didn't have the same support cast as they did either. He is only now assuming the leadership role. The next few years will make-or-break his legacy.


Last edited by Sentinel: 07-02-2011 at 08:57 AM.
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07-02-2011, 05:26 AM
  #70
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My new list of top 60.

1. Boris Mikhailov
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov
3. Vladislav Tretyak
4. Vladimir Petrov
5. Valeri Kharlamov
6. Sergei Makarov
7. Anatoli Firsov
8. Alexander Maltsev
9. Vladimir Krutov
10. Alexei Kasatonov
11. Vyacheslav Starshinov
12. Valeri Vasilyev
13. Vladimir Luchenko
14. Gennadi Tsygankov
15. Vyacheslav Bykov
16. Igor Larionov
17. Andrei Khomutov
18. Sergei Fedorov
19. Pavel Bure
20. Alexander Mogilny
21. Zinetula Bilyaletdinov
22. Vsevolod Bobrov
23. Alexander Yakushev
24. Alexander Ragulin
25. Sergei Kapustin
26. Sergei Zubov
27. Vladimir Vikulov
28. Viktor Kuzkin
29. Vasili Pervukhin
30. Alexander Gusev
31. Nikolai Sologubov
32. Venyamin Alexandrov
33. Alexander Almetov
34. Viktor Shalimov
35. Viktor Zhluktov
36. Valeri Kamensky
37. Boris Mayorov
38. Alexander Guryshev
39. Vladimir Shadrin
40. Vitali Davydov
41. Pavel Datsyuk
42. Andrei Markov
43. Nikolai Drozdetsky
44. Alexander Ovechkin
45. Alexander Skvortsov
46. Vladimir Konstantinov
47. Evgeny Malkin
48. Anatoli Semenov
49. Sergei Svetlov
50. Vladimir Malakhov
51. Sergei Babinov
52. Helmut Balderis
53. Sergei Gonchar
54. Ilya Kovalchuk
55. Viktor Konovalenko
56. Sergei Shepelev
57. Vladimir Kovin
58. Alexei Gusarov
59. Viktor Polupanov
60. Alexei Kovalev

Some notifications

- Mikhailov and Petrov are above Kharlamov. Kharlamov declined after 1974-1975, and Petrov and Mikhailov were the driving forces of that line after this.

- Mikhailov is #1. He is the greatest captain in Soviet history. He is the leading all time scorer in the World Championships and Soviet league. His performance in the 1979 Challenge Cup - the first major Soviet victory against the NHL - was brilliant. He is one of the best leaders in the history of the game.

- Petrov is above Kharlamov because he was in his own way the most important player in that line. He was a defensive specialist, one of the best defensive forwards in hockey. His was strong and sturdy. He was also a great scorer with that great shot of his, and not a bad playmaker either. Petrov would usually find Mikhailov open on the slot. Vladimir Petrov is the best Soviet/Russian centerman of all time.

- Players from 1970s and early 1980s were favored because at that time the Soviet hockey was in it's peak.

- Ovechkin and Malkin are relatively low because of their questionable performance in the national team (especially Ovechkin) and their young age.

- Many good players still missing from that list: Zhamnov, A.Yashin, Ozolinsh, Nemchinov, Kozhevnikov, Tyumenev, Gimayev, Loktev, Starikov, Stelnov, Bryzgalov, Zhitnik, Mironov, Yushkevich, Kravchuk, Khabibulin, Radulov, Varnakov, S.Yashin, Lomakin, Semak, Morozov, S.Kozlov, V.Kozlov, Khmylev, Y.Fedorov, Lebedev, Bodunov, Anisin, Golikov brothers etc. Just could not fit them in, and it shows the depth of the Russian hockey has.


Last edited by Peter25: 07-02-2011 at 05:32 AM.
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Old
07-02-2011, 08:54 AM
  #71
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Datsyuk should be MUCH higher on your list. Certainly in the Top 20.

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07-02-2011, 12:21 PM
  #72
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Quote:
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Datsyuk should be MUCH higher on your list. Certainly in the Top 20.
Datsyuk is not top 20 material. You seriously underrate the old Soviet greats.

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Old
07-04-2011, 02:17 PM
  #73
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And you seriously underestimate Datsyuk. He is probably the most versatile of all Soviet / Russian players, second only to Fedorov. Most of the Soviet players were made great by the place they occupied within their system. Krutov, for example, was a terrific power forward, but without Larionov, Makarov, and Fetisov, he would not be nearly as effective. Soviet system never developed truly universal players (that's why Tikhonov refered to Fedorov as the "player of the future"), and Datsyuk is the embodiment of a "universal player." Putting him below Kaputsin is rather controversial.

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07-04-2011, 03:02 PM
  #74
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Pretty good list, but you seem to overvalue career achievement to an extent.

Example: Bykov and Khomutov enjoyed great career success (especially internationally) but neither were ever as good a player, nor ever as individually dominant as a Fedorov, Datsyuk, or Bure.

I mean never at any point in their career were B/K a top 5 player in the world.....you could likely say the same about Maltsev. Fedorov, Datsyuk, Bure were/are.

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07-05-2011, 04:08 PM
  #75
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Interesting debate about the best all-time Russian Center. A case could be made for Petrov, Larionov, Fedorov or Datsyuk.

I don't think Larionov was the best. I wouldn't consider Datsyuk to be the best either, although he isn't finished.

I'll go with Petrov. He wasn't as dominant during his peak as Fedorov, but his peak was significantly longer. He was a great all-around player himself.




How about another great debate:

Who was/is Russia's 2nd best all-time goaltender?

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