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Has Avery Just Played Himself Off This Team?

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Old
03-16-2011, 06:59 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Why is this relevant today though? That was 2 years ago.... I'd say fans are far more concerned with what our players are doing here and now.
it really isnt relevant today, however fitzy brought it up and tried to downplay averys impact in those 2 series. something that i not only disagree with but find what he said untrue.

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03-16-2011, 07:02 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
There's no reason avery should be playing instead of Wolski. At least when Wolski isnt producing he isnt taking stupid penalties and he is still useful for the shootout. And he does still make things happen when he isnt scoring.
Wolski must be hurt. its the only way i can think of because if it wasnt for him, Dubinsky would not have been able to score in the shootout vs the Sharks. Wolski has not played bad since he had been back in the lineup. he does more than Avery

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Old
03-16-2011, 07:29 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
I'm saying if you put a player on a leash and you have a vendetta against them there's no way you would also give him first line ice time. he's too inconsistent to deserve it over all the other forwards
You're supporting this leash/vendetta theory, because Torts hasn't given him first line ice time. 11 minutes per game with no PP time is not first line ice time. Over the course of a full season a dozen forwards are on the "first line" at one point or another for various reasons. That doesn't mean they're all getting first line ice time in the way you're using it. You have to look at minutes per game over a decent sample size to determine who the coach is giving ice time to.

The leash thing, the decreased effectiveness and decrease ice time are all related. But he's still done alright with what he's gotten. Go check out every player in the league who's gotten 11-12 minutes per game and you'll see he's been more productive than all of them except for 2 guys. That's not bad at all. He's not having his best season but he also isn't completely useless just because he took 2 bad penalties in a 6-3 game.

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03-16-2011, 07:35 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
it really isnt relevant today, however fitzy brought it up and tried to downplay averys impact in those 2 series. something that i not only disagree with but find what he said untrue.
My apologies then, I wasn't following the conversation in it's context. I thought Avery was a real important factor in that Devil's series. But I haven't seen that player since.... Kind of reminds me of Michael Rozsival's play in the Buffalo series.... Kept waiting for him to show me that level of compete again and it just never happened.... Shame.

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Old
03-16-2011, 07:58 PM
  #105
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Did you see Torts' reaction to his penalty?

I am in no way a lip reader... but he definitely said "***! ********G STUPID MOTHER ********R"

Please stop me if i'm wrong Lol

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Old
03-16-2011, 08:13 PM
  #106
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I was at the game last night and I can tell you there was a lot of groaning in the stands that Avery kept taking penalties.

The first penalty (the boarding) I thought was a bit soft, but after watching Rangers in 60 and seeing all the replays on television, I can understand the call (probably reputation based in all honestly). It was a bit vicious but the Isles player turned his back at the last second.

The second penalty annoyed me more because he knows better and knows he's gonna get nailed every time (again because of his rep) and we didn't have a huge lead at that point.

The THIRD penalty pissed me off from the standpoint that it was his 3rd minor of the night. I wasn't so upset because we had a comfortable lead but still, 3 penalties in one night? Especially when he isn't on the ice that much and his play has been inconsistent, just frustrating.

I know Torts doesn't like him (I didn't see Torts flip out on the 3rd penalty/Tavares goal) but I also don't think the same Sean Avery is playing that we saw in the playoffs against New Jersey a few years ago. I don't notice him getting under teams' skin that much anymore and it seems like the only teams he does is New Jersey (and that isn't even a given anymore [Brodeur doesn't play as much] and especially when Kovalchuk keeps his cool)...

I really like the guy but I wouldn't be as broken up seeing him gone as I would've been a few years ago. It may help the Rangers get a better reputation around the league and get the refs on our side if he's gone, and we can use all the help we can get.

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03-16-2011, 08:13 PM
  #107
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Avery played himself off the team quite a while ago IMO.

He serves absolutely no place if he isn't a pest (a pest = his first 2 stints here). Call it whatever you want, Torts' fault or Avery's, however, he is not that player anymore, therefore, bye-bye. We don't need any more 24pt, 3-goal players.

Buy him out, trade him or bury him in the AHL like Redden.

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03-16-2011, 08:19 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He's played his way off this team. But it has nothing to do with last night. He's invisible and ineffective which in a large part is because of Torts. If he's not playing with an edge, on the edge he doesn't add a lot to any team.
That pretty well sums it all up about Sean Avery . I will say though that he was one of the few guys that went out and dropped his gloves after Gabby got pounded last year by the Flyers . But I guess that is not the style of play that Tortoise wants or he would play him more .

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03-16-2011, 08:33 PM
  #109
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I'm about done defending Avery. He doesn't really deserve my defense at this point.

I still take issue with people labeling him selfish. He takes bad penalties at times, and yes, that itself could be labeled selfish....but he's always, always looking to stick up for him teammates. I don't think he is at all selfish; just stupid.

Anyway, he's done here. I've pretty much given up hope that the old spark plug Avery will return. Serves little purpose now.

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03-16-2011, 08:34 PM
  #110
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Tortorella's egomanical tendencies have completely neutralized a player that proved he could live up to his expectations at MSG.

Until Torts contributes a little bit more to NYR playoff success, I'll side with Avery.

I'm generally not a fan of coaches who ostracize star players (Lundqvist, Gaborik) and exhibit the same undisciplined behavior they purport to teach.

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03-16-2011, 08:36 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm about done defending Avery. He doesn't really deserve my defense at this point.

I still take issue with people labeling him selfish. He takes bad penalties at times, and yes, that itself could be labeled selfish....but he's always, always looking to stick up for him teammates. I don't think he is at all selfish; just stupid.

Anyway, he's done here. I've pretty much given up hope that the old spark plug Avery will return. Serves little purpose now.
***t...when even you've given up defending Avery then you know things are pretty bad. But for what it's worth, I agree with you. Like I said in an earlier post, he isn't the same guy anymore and I don't like the "new" Sean.

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03-16-2011, 08:44 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm about done defending Avery. He doesn't really deserve my defense at this point.

I still take issue with people labeling him selfish. He takes bad penalties at times, and yes, that itself could be labeled selfish....but he's always, always looking to stick up for him teammates. I don't think he is at all selfish; just stupid.

Anyway, he's done here. I've pretty much given up hope that the old spark plug Avery will return. Serves little purpose now.

Avery defended Christensen after he got decked that one game. That game was also right after Christensen said Avery delivered a cheap-shot on Smid.

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Old
03-16-2011, 09:07 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by nyrleetch View Post

Avery defended Christensen after he got decked that one game. That game was also right after Christensen said Avery delivered a cheap-shot on Smid.
Right. On the ice, he's always willing to go to bat for his mates.

Lots of things can be said about Avery. That he's selfish...not buying it, personally.

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03-16-2011, 09:24 PM
  #114
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Jesus.. Why this guy remains such a controversial player among Ranger fans, eludes me.

He no longer adds the unique vale he used to (when the team was soft) and his 1 game on 4 games off just holds them back.

All the ******** aside, he's a decently skilled agitator who will provide some toughness but will also take stupid penalties and lacks consistency.

Those are decent guys to have around, but you don't pay them 2 mil a year for the role.


So regardless of all his history all all the other outside bullsh..ugar.., right now he's a role player and a prime candidate for a healthy scratch, but should injuries hit, he's a good option to bring in and hope he can contribute.

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Old
03-16-2011, 10:43 PM
  #115
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if we make the playoffs and he shows me nothing that is when i will give up hope for avery.

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03-16-2011, 11:16 PM
  #116
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Avery's penalties were a reaction for being benched for no good reason. He has been one of the hardest working players through the season. You could argue that he hasn't been producing. I will argue that players who work and produce less are getting far more playing time than Aves.

Avery hadn't taken a penalty in over a month leading up to last night. I think he deserves a starting spot on this team over some players who don't work as hard, and also don't produce often. EC and Feds for example.

It is what it is. Seems to me Torts was waiting for a reason, and Aves obliged.

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03-16-2011, 11:44 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by hockeyfrog127 View Post
Avery's penalties were a reaction for being benched for no good reason. He has been one of the hardest working players through the season. You could argue that he hasn't been producing. I will argue that players who work and produce less are getting far more playing time than Aves.

Avery hadn't taken a penalty in over a month leading up to last night. I think he deserves a starting spot on this team over some players who don't work as hard, and also don't produce often. EC and Feds for example.

It is what it is. Seems to me Torts was waiting for a reason, and Aves obliged.
The problem is hard working doesn't automatically earn you a spot on this team. Almost all of them bust ass, that's our whole niche. Callahan works even harder and I don't see Avery's 21 goals. I'm not trying to knock Avery here. All I'm saying is you can't defend a guy with "hard working" on this team, because it's par for the course on this team.

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Old
03-16-2011, 11:48 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Right. On the ice, he's always willing to go to bat for his mates.

Lots of things can be said about Avery. That he's selfish...not buying it, personally.
I'm with you. He's not selfish. He's always there for his teammates.

I don't buy taking dumb penalties is being selfish. More like stupid. But whatever.

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03-17-2011, 06:14 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Ranger de FLA View Post
I'm with you. He's not selfish. He's always there for his teammates.

I don't buy taking dumb penalties is being selfish. More like stupid. But whatever.
Stupid or selfish, either way, most have figured out he's a negative.

The fact that Torts can't stand him has to tell you something. There may be things about the internal workings of the team in regards to Avery that we don't know, as well.

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03-17-2011, 06:37 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by nyr7andcounting View Post
You're supporting this leash/vendetta theory, because Torts hasn't given him first line ice time. 11 minutes per game with no PP time is not first line ice time. Over the course of a full season a dozen forwards are on the "first line" at one point or another for various reasons.

That doesn't mean they're all getting first line ice time in the way you're using it. You have to look at minutes per game over a decent sample size to determine who the coach is giving ice time to.

The leash thing, the decreased effectiveness and decrease ice time are all related. But he's still done alright with what he's gotten. Go check out every player in the league who's gotten 11-12 minutes per game and you'll see he's been more productive than all of them except for 2 guys. That's not bad at all. He's not having his best season but he also isn't completely useless just because he took 2 bad penalties in a 6-3 game.
Not only did I already post a perfect response to this but wolfgaze quoted it directly after I posted it. If there's a personal vendetta (not leash) but personal vendetta then why ever EVER put him on the 1st line especially when you consider he was consistently on the top lines when Torts started here and Avery was playing effective all around hockey. Leash had no effect back then. He's gotten worse and he's not playing good all around hockey. He's no longer better than our other forwards. Not only did he used to be much better he had Hollweg, Betts, Orr, brashear and the like behind him. not hard to hold a top 3 line with that competition. Diff is he earned mroe than that and got it. Pointless defense for a player who's lost it.He needs to be better than the forwards on this team not someone elses...and the bad penalties negate good things he does. Is scoring the only thing he contributes? So why use scoring alone (over guys with no ice time) to defend him?

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03-17-2011, 07:04 AM
  #121
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He's not but what he used to be, but can't see him being a big problem, as a 3/4-liner, fine. I can live with or without him.

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03-17-2011, 07:59 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm about done defending Avery. He doesn't really deserve my defense at this point.

I still take issue with people labeling him selfish. He takes bad penalties at times, and yes, that itself could be labeled selfish....but he's always, always looking to stick up for him teammates. I don't think he is at all selfish; just stupid.

Anyway, he's done here. I've pretty much given up hope that the old spark plug Avery will return. Serves little purpose now.
Especially when his 1.9 cap hit seems less and less acceptable as the season rolls along.

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03-17-2011, 09:02 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm about done defending Avery. He doesn't really deserve my defense at this point.

I still take issue with people labeling him selfish. He takes bad penalties at times, and yes, that itself could be labeled selfish....but he's always, always looking to stick up for him teammates. I don't think he is at all selfish; just stupid.

Anyway, he's done here. I've pretty much given up hope that the old spark plug Avery will return. Serves little purpose now.
My thoughts exactly

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Old
03-17-2011, 09:29 AM
  #124
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Tortorella's egomanical tendencies have completely neutralized a player that proved he could live up to his expectations at MSG.

Until Torts contributes a little bit more to NYR playoff success, I'll side with Avery.

I'm generally not a fan of coaches who ostracize star players (Lundqvist, Gaborik) and exhibit the same undisciplined behavior they purport to teach.
Last season, maybe you have a point - this season? Nope.

Tortorella has been pretty fair this season - if hes hammered a player, hes deserved it.

And Avery deserves all the criticism he gets...he has been absolutely brutal for 2 years now and hasnt helped the team in any discernable way. Brandon Prust has stolen Avery's role and run away with it.

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03-17-2011, 10:04 AM
  #125
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Avery hasn't been neutered by Torts, he's been neutered by the NHL and himself. And it shouldn't be any big surprise. We all knew going in when Sather claimed him a few years ago that he was going to be held to a different standard and that would most likely affect his game...and it has. He gets away with nothing. The refs have their eye on him at all times and are always quick to blow the whistle. There is no playing on the edge for him. The edge that he always knew and made him effective, is now way over the edge. He can't be the same player he once was without spending the entire game in the box.

At the same time, he's also lost his effectiveness as an agitator. These kinds of players have a shelf life. After a while, the other teams FINALLY start to realize that the best way to handle guys like Avery, Ruutu, etc is to ignore them. Let them play the role of a pest and take penalties, rather than going back at them and getting called on a reaction penalty or a frustration penalty.

When you take Avery for what he is and not allow him to play his mind games he becomes just another hockey player...and not an especially good one. For $2M a year, it's not bad. The problem is that he just doesn't fit a role on this current team since we have people to do it cheaper and better.

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