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Old
03-18-2011, 10:48 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
By "distinction" I meant to carry increasing levels of punishment.... The two may be technically defined by the league, but if the penalties are the same than the two are not really separately defined.
There ARE separate levels of punishment.

If you're caught embellishing a play, you can expect to get a 2 minute minor that'll offset one on the other team. Result: 4 on 4 hockey.

If you're caught straight up diving, you can expect to be the only guy sitting. Result: your team has a penalty kill to deal with.


The punishments are different. The problem is that the league just does. Not. Call. Diving.

Players know what's at stake if they're caught diving on a play, but they know that the odds of it getting called are slim to none. So they're gonna keep doing it.

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03-18-2011, 10:48 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Id agree that its a mix of both.
The idea you're putting forward is basically the justification for de-regulating the banks: it was in their interest to do good business. That ignores that people are greedy.

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03-18-2011, 10:49 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
There ARE separate levels of punishment.

If you're caught embellishing a play, you can expect to get a 2 minute minor that'll offset one on the other team. Result: 4 on 4 hockey.

If you're caught straight up diving, you can expect to be the only guy sitting. Result: your team has a penalty kill to deal with.


The punishments are different. The problem is that the league just does. Not. Call. Diving.

Players know what's at stake if they're caught diving on a play, but they know that the odds of it getting called are slim to none. So they're gonna keep doing it.
They call diving... it's just almost always in conjunction with another call as well. Very rarely is it independent.

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03-18-2011, 10:50 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They call diving... it's just almost always in conjunction with another call as well. Very rarely is it independent.
I meant separately.

I always understood the spirit of the rule to be that if you dive overtly, you go to the box by yourself. If you dive/embellish what was a bad play, it's 4 on 4.


My point was that until the league starts calling the solo dive nothing will change no matter how cleanly you draw the line. (Which is just agreeing with the point you've been making).

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03-18-2011, 10:54 AM
  #80
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Leino and Carcillo are probably some of the worst divers in the league, it sucks when you like to cheer for them.

As for the whole dilemma of diving never being called... I've done some refereeing in the past and it's ridiculously hard to tell if a guy straight out dives in full speed live action. So, you play it safe, because to call a guy for diving when he has in fact been tripped somehow feels worse than letting a guy get away with taking a fall. I know that there's been some talk here in Sweden (in soccer at least) about making it possible for disciplinary action after the games if a dive is caught on camera, but that's tricky as well because the camera angle can be deceptive. A tugged shirt can be clearly seen from one angle, but impossible to see from others for example.

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03-18-2011, 10:56 AM
  #81
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Personally, I think Hartnell is the worst diver in the league; and, by worst, I mean literally worst in that he absolutely sucks at diving. It never looks real at all.

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03-18-2011, 10:58 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Leino and Carcillo are probably some of the worst divers in the league, it sucks when you like to cheer for them.

As for the whole dilemma of diving never being called... I've done some refereeing in the past and it's ridiculously hard to tell if a guy straight out dives in full speed live action. So, you play it safe, because to call a guy for diving when he has in fact been tripped somehow feels worse than letting a guy get away with taking a fall. I know that there's been some talk here in Sweden (in soccer at least) about making it possible for disciplinary action after the games if a dive is caught on camera, but that's tricky as well because the camera angle can be deceptive. A tugged shirt can be clearly seen from one angle, but impossible to see from others for example.
Post-op legislation against diving is probably not that big a deal in the NHL given the 360 degree coverage of camera's NHL rinks have these days. Certainly you'd need clear evidence, but it could be done. It's interesting that we used to hear so much about diving from the NHL, and now you hear nothing about it given the attention to head shots. Multi-tasking is not a strength of the NHL as an organization.

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03-18-2011, 11:24 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Leino and Carcillo are probably some of the worst divers in the league, it sucks when you like to cheer for them.

As for the whole dilemma of diving never being called... I've done some refereeing in the past and it's ridiculously hard to tell if a guy straight out dives in full speed live action. So, you play it safe, because to call a guy for diving when he has in fact been tripped somehow feels worse than letting a guy get away with taking a fall. I know that there's been some talk here in Sweden (in soccer at least) about making it possible for disciplinary action after the games if a dive is caught on camera, but that's tricky as well because the camera angle can be deceptive. A tugged shirt can be clearly seen from one angle, but impossible to see from others for example.
That's the crux of it; unless the ref has a near-perfect view of a player going down with no illegal contact, the straight diving call is very difficult to make. As well, as the rules stipulate now, a stick in the midsection does not have to impede to be called a hook; it just has to be there.

I'm wondering if, instead or even on top of a 2 for diving, a 10-min misconduct for unsportsmanlike conduct would be more of a deterrent. Because that is really what diving is: an unsportsmanlike act to try to gain an unfair advantage. And even if it's just the 10, that means that either the F lines or D pairings are mixed up for a full half a period; less for a marginal player, but if someone like Brière got sent to the box for it, that is a major on-ice loss for the full 10 minutes, as he doesn't return to play if a goal is scored against.

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03-18-2011, 11:29 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
That's the crux of it; unless the ref has a near-perfect view of a player going down with no illegal contact, the straight diving call is very difficult to make. As well, as the rules stipulate now, a stick in the midsection does not have to impede to be called a hook; it just has to be there.

I'm wondering if, instead or even on top of a 2 for diving, a 10-min misconduct for unsportsmanlike conduct would be more of a deterrent. Because that is really what diving is: an unsportsmanlike act to try to gain an unfair advantage. And even if it's just the 10, that means that either the F lines or D pairings are mixed up for a full half a period; less for a marginal player, but if someone like Brière got sent to the box for it, that is a major on-ice loss for the full 10 minutes, as he doesn't return to play if a goal is scored against.
If I could make the rules, the 10 minute misconduct would be my choice as well.

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03-18-2011, 11:29 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm not sure I follow. If you never call the "lone diving call" you are going to have more "flailing around" of players. As Jester pointed out, there is ZERO downside to diving if they never call the "lone diving call".
When you flail around like that and fall down you take yourself completely out of the play, which can lead to things like odd man rushes.

Guy backchecking gets his stick up, you fall down, he takes the puck and turns it the other way.

Honestly I can see both sides of the argument though. I just think most diving calls are ******** calls instead of good calls. Personal opinion.

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03-18-2011, 11:51 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Personally, I think Hartnell is the worst diver in the league; and, by worst, I mean literally worst in that he absolutely sucks at diving. It never looks real at all.
agreed. Hartnell and Carcillo both do it blatantly. Honestly I havent seen Leino do it that much before last night.
I missed the game last night, is that what Carcillo go his matching 2 minute misconduct for in the 1st period?

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03-18-2011, 12:09 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Post-op legislation against diving is probably not that big a deal in the NHL given the 360 degree coverage of camera's NHL rinks have these days. Certainly you'd need clear evidence, but it could be done. It's interesting that we used to hear so much about diving from the NHL, and now you hear nothing about it given the attention to head shots. Multi-tasking is not a strength of the NHL as an organization.
It's probably easier to accomplish in hockey than in soccer, even if it's a higher tempo in the game. There's so much easier to fall for legitimate reasons in soccer, being caught off balance a little bit and then trying to stay up only to fall down some ten meters down the road and such.

Also, to share a story from Sweden. One of our most well-known dives in the National team happened in a game in the 80's and the guy who fell went on to become a play by play guy for national TV. He has refused to acknowledge that he meant to dive and says that he was simply expecting to be tackled, because that's what the defender should have done in such a situation, so his body readied itself for a tackle that never came. It might sound a bit weird but he does have a point there, these things happen so fast and our reactions to them are instinctive most of the time, not pre-meditated.

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03-18-2011, 12:56 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
It's probably easier to accomplish in hockey than in soccer, even if it's a higher tempo in the game. There's so much easier to fall for legitimate reasons in soccer, being caught off balance a little bit and then trying to stay up only to fall down some ten meters down the road and such.

Also, to share a story from Sweden. One of our most well-known dives in the National team happened in a game in the 80's and the guy who fell went on to become a play by play guy for national TV. He has refused to acknowledge that he meant to dive and says that he was simply expecting to be tackled, because that's what the defender should have done in such a situation, so his body readied itself for a tackle that never came. It might sound a bit weird but he does have a point there, these things happen so fast and our reactions to them are instinctive most of the time, not pre-meditated.
Yeah, that actually gets at the one problematic embellishment... the head snap. It's a natural reaction to jerk away from something flying at your face even if it doesn't make contact. Sometimes it's ridiculous and over the top (see Carcillo), but in general I at least understand when that happens.

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03-18-2011, 01:53 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Soccer is rough though, balancing, trying to outrun someone, while controlling a ball, it's pretty intense, and the other guy is constantly trying to trip and tackle you. A lot of the time the players go down easily, sure, but with soccer I think the problem is the embellishment more so then the diving. WHEN they go down, they act like they broke a leg. Save it for when you are actually hurt.


Someone who gets it! Soccer players get a lot of flack for diving but, most soccer players can run in the 18-20mph range, with ball (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...Find-here.html)... Most people posting here would be tripped up by the wind if they were just out running 18mph.

Now imagine that while controlling a ball, trying to fake other players out with head movements and body feints, while fending off tackles and such. A lot of people say soccer players hit the ground easy, but when your pushing your legs as far as they do... It's expected that ya know the straw breaks ye ol camels back.

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03-18-2011, 01:58 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by CavemanLawyer View Post


Someone who gets it! Soccer players get a lot of flack for diving but, most soccer players can run in the 18-20mph range, with ball (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...Find-here.html)... Most people posting here would be tripped up by the wind if they were just out running 18mph.

Now imagine that while controlling a ball, trying to fake other players out with head movements and body feints, while fending off tackles and such. A lot of people say soccer players hit the ground easy, but when your pushing your legs as far as they do... It's expected that ya know the straw breaks ye ol camels back.
Lets slow down. A lot of soccer players go down way too easy.

The bigger problem is soccer players that go down and act like a sniper got 'em until some water is dripped on their shin.

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03-18-2011, 02:05 PM
  #91
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i think it's ok to embellish a bit, but dives like what Carcillo did (making something out of absolutely nothing) are terrible.

no better than


or


Last edited by RevUpThoseGolfCarts: 03-18-2011 at 02:10 PM.
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03-18-2011, 03:09 PM
  #92
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Hartnell looks like a drunken lush half the time I can't tell if he's diving or tripping over himself.

Leino on the other hand has it down to a science. Earlier this year he took a dive and made it look like he was boarded.. The camera pans back to him and he turns to the bench and winks, the expression on his face was hilarious.

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03-18-2011, 03:24 PM
  #93
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Youtube is blocked, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that one of Rev's two videos are Crosby's "injury" when Jason Smith "slashed" him.

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03-18-2011, 08:02 PM
  #94
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It's a league wide epidemic. Flyers arent special one way or the other

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03-18-2011, 08:35 PM
  #95
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It's a league wide epidemic. Flyers arent special one way or the other
This jersey used to mean all-out effort, 120% work ethic, "shortest route to the puck and get there in a bad mood" hockey. I'd like to think that some semblance of this legacy is remembered.

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03-18-2011, 08:52 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
This jersey used to mean all-out effort, 120% work ethic, "shortest route to the puck and get there in a bad mood" hockey. I'd like to think that some semblance of this legacy is remembered.
This jersey, historically, is also about doing what you can get away with.

These days, that means diving.

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03-18-2011, 10:13 PM
  #97
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This jersey used to mean all-out effort, 120% work ethic, "shortest route to the puck and get there in a bad mood" hockey. I'd like to think that some semblance of this legacy is remembered.
Bill Barber is famous for diving.

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03-18-2011, 10:29 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel
This jersey, historically, is also about doing what you can get away with.

These days, that means diving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Bill Barber is famous for diving.
Sigh. Yes, you're right. How about we look at the forest and not the (falling) trees, shall we?

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03-18-2011, 10:33 PM
  #99
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Sigh. Yes, you're right. How about we look at the forest and not the (falling) trees, shall we?
I am looking at the forest - the NHL. Diving is a tactic in it and always has been.

If you're not doing it, you're at a disadvantage.

It doesn't matter what color the jersey is. It never has mattered. You can look all over the Flyers' timeline and see people who dive, and do all manner of other dirty things.

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03-19-2011, 05:46 AM
  #100
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Buff had a bit of a balls punch there.
Not a bit, a full on. Its not the first time Buff has done some **** like that, he plays dirty.

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