HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Flyers have worst farm system in NHL

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-18-2011, 06:30 PM
  #51
ShawnTHW
@ShawnTHW
 
ShawnTHW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 8,881
vCash: 500
SHOCKER!


ShawnTHW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 06:34 PM
  #52
Haute Couturier
Registered User
 
Haute Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not surprising. Most of the guys below the NHL are known scrubs. However, I have no problem having a crappy farm system if the big club is winning.
I care. Why is it that other successful teams don't need to trade a boatload of picks to be competitive?

Haute Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 07:03 PM
  #53
1865
Registered User
 
1865's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester, UK
Country: England
Posts: 9,175
vCash: 50
Who gives a crap when we lead the East?

1865 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 07:18 PM
  #54
flyersfan018
Registered User
 
flyersfan018's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,242
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I care. Why is it that other successful teams don't need to trade a boatload of picks to be competitive?
They didn't turn around a last place finish into a serious contender in only a year. Notice Washington and Pittsburgh's farm teams.

Why worry about picks when you can trade them for talent you already know can produce at the NHL level?

flyersfan018 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 07:30 PM
  #55
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan018 View Post
They didn't turn around a last place finish into a serious contender in only a year. Notice Washington and Pittsburgh's farm teams.

Why worry about picks when you can trade them for talent you already know can produce at the NHL level?
Because that talent is expensive, for one. All anyone is saying is that you can't do that forever.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 07:54 PM
  #56
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Who gives a crap when we lead the East?
How shortsighted of you.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 09:20 PM
  #57
flyersfan018
Registered User
 
flyersfan018's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,242
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Because that talent is expensive, for one. All anyone is saying is that you can't do that forever.
I wasn't saying you can do that forever, I was just saying bring this up again in 3-4 years, then I'll be worried.

flyersfan018 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 09:51 PM
  #58
1865
Registered User
 
1865's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester, UK
Country: England
Posts: 9,175
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
How shortsighted of you.
If we had a team of old men on expensive contracts and a load of kids on ELCs then i'd be concerned. As it is, the core's signed up long term, the veterans are fairly well contracted and the only ones who will need replacing will be cheap and cheerful. Get rid of one of Meszaros or Carle and we could even afford a goalie. A real one!

We're in a good position, we don't need a farm system. It'd be nice, but it's not essential.

1865 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 09:56 PM
  #59
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,407
vCash: 500
We're going to be like this for a long time unless we actually have draft picks.

SolidSnakeUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 10:01 PM
  #60
Phileeguy
G's got good hands.
 
Phileeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philly
Country: United States
Posts: 4,703
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
We're going to be like this for a long time unless we actually have draft picks.
Draft picks, what are they? I can vaguely recall Clarke doing something with what I think one is and he forgot something important.

Phileeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-18-2011, 10:30 PM
  #61
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
If we had a team of old men on expensive contracts and a load of kids on ELCs then i'd be concerned. As it is, the core's signed up long term, the veterans are fairly well contracted and the only ones who will need replacing will be cheap and cheerful. Get rid of one of Meszaros or Carle and we could even afford a goalie. A real one!

We're in a good position, we don't need a farm system. It'd be nice, but it's not essential.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 08:45 AM
  #62
1865
Registered User
 
1865's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester, UK
Country: England
Posts: 9,175
vCash: 50
I'm aware that this board is called 'hockey's future' and that there's some weird obsession with draft picks (they've done Florida the world of good after all) but you can operate without them.

Infidel, instead of acting like a t**t, why don't you offer a rebuttal? The fact is that we don't need first rounders. You moan that we lose them but Holmgren merely cuts out the wait. He turned this year's first into a 24 year old who's already got 3 20 goal seasons. He turned the last two or three into one of the best defencemen in the league.

As I said, it'd be nice to have a flowing farm that we can keep dropping into and taking players from but we're not going to need one for a long while. Carter, Richards, Pronger, Timonen etc... are signed long term for good prices. We aren't in the position where we're desperate for ELC's across the board.

1865 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 08:56 AM
  #63
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,895
vCash: 5792
It would be more apparent if we haven't done so well with injuries the last two seasons (credit Lavy for forcing the team to be in better shape). Imagine where this team would be if we had the problems the Canucks have had with their defensemen.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 08:59 AM
  #64
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,319
vCash: 500
This is one of the only times I can recall that I am actually OK with the farm team being bad due to the players the Flyers got in trading their picks.

This team is nothing without Pronger, who cost the Flyers what amounts to 3 first round picks in Sbisa and the other first rounders. I would do that trade again.

Chris Versteeg is likely going to be better than what the Flyers would draft with their pick in the 20s at this year's draft (although the Flyers are good at drafting in the late first round).

Most of the main players are locked into long term contracts which bodes well for the immediate future.

So for right now, I think it is acceptable to have a bad farm team due to the loss of so many draft picks.

The problem going forward will be for Holmgren to realize that the draft is our friend and not something that he should try to avoid. He has got to stop wasting 2nd round picks and keep some first rounders to build up the farm team so that in 3 or 4 years, he can actually have some players to bring up when the big team can't afford to keep all the current roster.

In a cap world, you need to have access to cheap labor, something the draft provides. So while I am not concerned now, Holmgren has to keep some picks in the future to start building up the system. I don't think you'll find many successful franchises that ignore the farm team and trade draft picks forever. Long term, the Flyers need some decent prospects.

Pantokrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 09:11 AM
  #65
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
I'm aware that this board is called 'hockey's future' and that there's some weird obsession with draft picks (they've done Florida the world of good after all) but you can operate without them.

Infidel, instead of acting like a t**t, why don't you offer a rebuttal? The fact is that we don't need first rounders. You moan that we lose them but Holmgren merely cuts out the wait. He turned this year's first into a 24 year old who's already got 3 20 goal seasons. He turned the last two or three into one of the best defencemen in the league.

As I said, it'd be nice to have a flowing farm that we can keep dropping into and taking players from but we're not going to need one for a long while. Carter, Richards, Pronger, Timonen etc... are signed long term for good prices. We aren't in the position where we're desperate for ELC's across the board.
A lot of our current ELC's are going to be getting raises soon and the math has been worked out in this thread before, but we're fairly limited in how much money about a dozen of our players are going to be needing when the time to re-up comes. Versteeg is going to be expensive on his next deal, so will Giroux, JvR, and probably Leino at this rate. As I have said in this thread, we're fine right now, but in 2-3 years we're going to be needing an influx of young talent. Timonen will likely be retiring then, we have no idea when Pronger might begin to slow down or miss more time with injuries, and we're going to need good young defensemen ready to step in, and we'll be turning over our lower line forwards pretty consistently 'cause that's how it works.

The simple fact is that, long-term, you do need a farm system in order to continue operating. It's called sustainability. We emptied out the cupboard and put ourselves in great shape for the next couple years, but after that you're going to see turnover, and a lack of young, cheap talent at that point will have a noticeable effect.

You don't stay on top long-term without being able to draft well. We've always been good because we've always drafted well. Detroit is always on top because they draft exceedingly well. Do you need a first round pick every year? No, of course not. But not having a first (if you've read my comments in this thread - which I assume you haven't - you'll see this is the first time I'm even mentioning a first round pick) or second for consecutive draft classes will lead to a falloff in our ability to filter in cheap young players who can contribute, and that's necessary in the salary cap world.

You clearly missed the point of the discussion that occurred before you dropped oh-so-much wisdom on all of us: this is not an immediate issue or necessarily a crisis. With core of our team, we'll remain competitive. There's no doubt...but if you really want to make a run at a Cup, it's the fringe elements that make a difference. Every team in the league has a handful of good core players; it's your ability to put depth around them that can contribute when necessary that'll make a difference in the cap world....and you're not just going to do that through trades forever. It's not like we're screwed now, but Holmgren better start stocking up on prospects this year and next because we'll be needing NHL ready youth in a couple years.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 09:41 AM
  #66
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,497
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerFire View Post
I love the Flyers just as much as all of you and yet I dont think we are as bad off as "reported". True we may not have much top end talent on the farm. They are up already. Rather have that that blow picks in the draft on players that dont pan out. Im fine with our picks and players.Glass is still half full, sorry. And no dont care to hear about who we need to resign etc. Management will get it done. Have faith
I agree with you. Here in three years is a look at what our core group could look like.


Giroux 26
Carter 29
Richards 29
Versteeg 27
Carle 29
JVR 24
Mesarros 28
Nodl 27
Coburn 29
Bobrovsky 25
Powe 28
Bartulis 27

Have faith people.
Not a bad group to build on!

Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 11:40 AM
  #67
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 30,944
vCash: 50
the stacked Phantoms team would save us if we had injuries. Yeah who needs draft picks and prospects. Holmgren should announce at the draft that hes giving them all away for $1. then he can go out and sign studs like Testwuide, Holmstrom, Pither, and Gus.
yeah who needs draft picks and prospects when you are in first, the core is young ect ect.
Jesus Christ, I cant believe how shortsighted people are. At what point do you start being concerned? when the core is 30? 32? Yeah lets start keeping the draft picks then. No need to have a future to look forward to until then, by then we will have racked up 6 or 7 Cups.
God I swear some of the posters around here must be 14 years old.

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 11:44 AM
  #68
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
People need to understand that while a bad farm system now doesn't spell trouble right now, it spells trouble in a few years, when you expect those AHL players to have enough seasoning to be able to play in the NHL if needed.

If you have no good players on the farm now, it means you probably won't have anyone ready in 2-3 years...WHICH IS WHEN WE WILL START NEEDING THEM.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 11:49 AM
  #69
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 30,944
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
People need to understand that while a bad farm system now doesn't spell trouble right now, it spells trouble in a few years, when you expect those AHL players to have enough seasoning to be able to play in the NHL if needed.

If you have no good players on the farm now, it means you probably won't have anyone ready in 2-3 years...WHICH IS WHEN WE WILL START NEEDING THEM.
yup. exactly. I tried being rational with some of my posts earlier but some people will never get it at all which is why I went off on my sarcastic rant. maybe some of the children around here will get it.
4 years in a row we havent had a 1st or a 2nd(I am including Sbisa since we dealt him) That to me is completely unacceptable.

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 11:56 AM
  #70
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,895
vCash: 5792
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
People need to understand that while a bad farm system now doesn't spell trouble right now, it spells trouble in a few years, when you expect those AHL players to have enough seasoning to be able to play in the NHL if needed.

If you have no good players on the farm now, it means you probably won't have anyone ready in 2-3 years...WHICH IS WHEN WE WILL START NEEDING THEM.
Thing is, the Flyers have been good for years with minimal contributions from the Phantoms.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 12:06 PM
  #71
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,497
vCash: 500
Really. Yet still people spit out doom and gloom when they do not have a clue as to what the future holds.

Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 12:18 PM
  #72
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Thing is, the Flyers have been good for years with minimal contributions from the Phantoms.
Minimal contributions? The biggest pieces of our core are all players we drafted who played for the Phantoms before making the Flyers.....

Granted, most of them will all be here long-term, but even some of the role players who've done good things for us (Nodl) and our depth defensemen (Bartulis, Gustafsson) came from within.

If you don't have decent prospects, you can't fill in those little holes that crop up or insert capable players in case of injury. It's just the way it goes with a salary cap. At some point if the Flyers don't start drafting again, it's gonna cause issues with really rounding out the roster.

To pretend that top-level teams don't need to have good young talent in the pipeline to consistently stay at the top is just stupid.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 12:34 PM
  #73
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Really. Yet still people spit out doom and gloom when they do not have a clue as to what the future holds.
So just because we dont know what the future holds, we shouldnt talk about it or worry about it? That doesnt make sense...

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 12:34 PM
  #74
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 30,944
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Really. Yet still people spit out doom and gloom when they do not have a clue as to what the future holds.
and people always act like everything is going to be great for the next 10 years when they have no clue either.

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2011, 12:35 PM
  #75
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,369
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
the stacked Phantoms team would save us if we had injuries. Yeah who needs draft picks and prospects. Holmgren should announce at the draft that hes giving them all away for $1. then he can go out and sign studs like Testwuide, Holmstrom, Pither, and Gus.
yeah who needs draft picks and prospects when you are in first, the core is young ect ect.
Jesus Christ, I cant believe how shortsighted people are. At what point do you start being concerned? when the core is 30? 32? Yeah lets start keeping the draft picks then. No need to have a future to look forward to until then, by then we will have racked up 6 or 7 Cups.
God I swear some of the posters around here must be 14 years old.
You start to get concerned when you start needing them. Right now, this team is young enough and talented enough that there is really no need to have a 21 year old kid step up and do something. Sure, it would be nice to have a cheap player with star potential, but with this team that is not needed. The future may be bleak with this farm team, but if a Cup is the ultimate goal, I'd rather go all in now than play it safe and try to build through the draft. I'd say its just as likely the Flyers win a Cup doing it that way than there is to the alternative.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:46 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.