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Flyers have worst farm system in NHL

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Old
03-19-2011, 01:42 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You start to get concerned when you start needing them. Right now, this team is young enough and talented enough that there is really no need to have a 21 year old kid step up and do something. Sure, it would be nice to have a cheap player with star potential, but with this team that is not needed. The future may be bleak with this farm team, but if a Cup is the ultimate goal, I'd rather go all in now than play it safe and try to build through the draft. I'd say its just as likely the Flyers win a Cup doing it that way than there is to the alternative.
when you start needing them will be too late. because most draft picks take 2 or 3 years to develop. Which is why we need to start in the very near future.
i realize the ultimate goal is to win the Cup. Some organizations have been able to do both. build a Cup contender and build up a future under the big club. That is a concept this organization has failed to grasp.

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03-19-2011, 01:43 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You start to get concerned when you start needing them. Right now, this team is young enough and talented enough that there is really no need to have a 21 year old kid step up and do something. Sure, it would be nice to have a cheap player with star potential, but with this team that is not needed. The future may be bleak with this farm team, but if a Cup is the ultimate goal, I'd rather go all in now than play it safe and try to build through the draft. I'd say its just as likely the Flyers win a Cup doing it that way than there is to the alternative.
So...until we start to get some big injuries and have guys like Rinaldo in our top 6 we start to worry? Definitely not the approach one should follow in hockey OR in real life. Its really not that hard of a concept. We have gotten very lucky lately with injuries. In the past, we would lose the Gagne, Briere, etc etc. We have no one to replace them. Its pretty simple. I think people will get it once injuries catch up with us...sadly.

Also, I think a main point that needs to be brought up, what happens when in 3 years or so, we still have our core and haven't won a cup? Everyone is making it sound like we are winning 3 cups in the next 4 or 5 years. What do you do if this core cant cut it?

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03-19-2011, 01:49 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You start to get concerned when you start needing them. Right now, this team is young enough and talented enough that there is really no need to have a 21 year old kid step up and do something. Sure, it would be nice to have a cheap player with star potential, but with this team that is not needed. The future may be bleak with this farm team, but if a Cup is the ultimate goal, I'd rather go all in now than play it safe and try to build through the draft. I'd say its just as likely the Flyers win a Cup doing it that way than there is to the alternative.
This in a nutshell.

We're all-in. It's a conscious strategy by management, one that I happen to agree with given the current circumstances.


This team has EIGHT homegrown players on it, nine if you want to count Boosh, ALL of them in their early to mid twenties, including the three best forwards on the team.

I'm not certain, but that seems to me to be more than we've had in quite awhile. It wouldn't shock me if we haven't had that many since before the Lindros era.

It also have several very young players it acquired from other teams, i.e. Carle, Coburn, Versteeg.

Everybody that needs to be signed long-term, is already signed long-term. The only guy looking for a big raise any time soon is MAYBE JVR?

Can we keep neglecting the farm forever? No. Is it the right strategy for right now? I believe it is.

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03-19-2011, 01:51 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
when you start needing them will be too late. because most draft picks take 2 or 3 years to develop. Which is why we need to start in the very near future.
i realize the ultimate goal is to win the Cup. Some organizations have been able to do both. build a Cup contender and build up a future under the big club. That is a concept this organization has failed to grasp.
That may be the case that it is too late, or they can pick someone up out of free agency and continue to do what they are doing now. I understand what you are saying and I agree that obviously having a a good farm system is better than not having one, and having both a good farm system and a good big club would be ideal, but if I had to choose one or the other, I'd take the big club. I know you aren't saying that you'd rather have a good farm team or anything like that, but if you can trade draft picks for star players and build the big club faster, I would do it every time. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. That being said, if say Giroux and JVR were in the minors and the Flyers traded them for a star player, that is something I would not do. I have no problem trading draft picks or guys with high ceilings to build the big club, but trading away stud prospects is a different story.

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
So...until we start to get some big injuries and have guys like Rinaldo in our top 6 we start to worry? Definitely not the approach one should follow in hockey OR in real life. Its really not that hard of a concept. We have gotten very lucky lately with injuries. In the past, we would lose the Gagne, Briere, etc etc. We have no one to replace them. Its pretty simple. I think people will get it once injuries catch up with us...sadly.
That is definitely a valid point, but you have to realize that a lot of the players we have now were acquired through trading prospects and draft picks so we wouldn't have them right now so the team likely would not be in the same situation they are in now. You take away Pronger, Versteeg, Meszaros and others that were acquired via trade and there is no telling who would be playing in those spots. Certainly no one as good as Pronger (who is where a lot of the picks went for) that's for sure.

Quote:
Also, I think a main point that needs to be brought up, what happens when in 3 years or so, we still have our core and haven't won a cup? Everyone is making it sound like we are winning 3 cups in the next 4 or 5 years.
I hear ya on that, but what I am saying is that I would rather take the risk. What's the difference if we have a sick team in 5 years build through the draft but no cups in those five years or a sick team for five years done the way we have now but no cups? The only difference is that maybe at the end of five years build through the draft we have better players, which could also be done through free agency the way we are going now. Six of one half dozen of the other.

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03-19-2011, 03:03 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Also, I think a main point that needs to be brought up, what happens when in 3 years or so, we still have our core and haven't won a cup? Everyone is making it sound like we are winning 3 cups in the next 4 or 5 years. What do you do if this core cant cut it?
If this core doesn't cut it, then the rebuild begins. The good thing about something like that is in 3 years from now, guys like Richards, Carter, Versteeg, Giroux, JVR, Meszaros, Coburn, Carle, etc....aren't 30 and that should result in a huge windfall of prospects, picks and even more important, cap space.

I think the lineup right now is capable of winning a Stanley Cup or two. With that being said, if they don't win in the next three years, I can easily see a tear down. I also think if they win, a retool will take place. We won't see a full out replacement, but there will probably be two or three players who will be dealt to help restock the pipeline and a free agent or two will be signed to replace said players.

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03-19-2011, 03:27 PM
  #81
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You have a great job, you make enough money, life is good. It's not like you have guaranteed security, but you're feeling comfy with your job. Chances are, you'll continue working there for the next 4 years or more and you'll be alright. You emptied your savings account to move for this job and buy furniture and stuff, but who cares? You're making money, life is good.

Should you or should you not worry that your savings account is empty? Should you be thinking ahead? I mean, you don't need your own savings; you can always just sell a bunch of your crap if you ever 'NEED' more money. But wouldn't it probably be a good idea?

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03-19-2011, 03:58 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
You have a great job, you make enough money, life is good. It's not like you have guaranteed security, but you're feeling comfy with your job. Chances are, you'll continue working there for the next 4 years or more and you'll be alright. You emptied your savings account to move for this job and buy furniture and stuff, but who cares? You're making money, life is good.

Should you or should you not worry that your savings account is empty? Should you be thinking ahead? I mean, you don't need your own savings; you can always just sell a bunch of your crap if you ever 'NEED' more money. But wouldn't it probably be a good idea?
That is a completely different scenario. Having a good job but no savings and having a good NHL team but no farm system on its face seem very similar, but in reality they are not. If you bet it all on one season to win the Cup and don't (or do) and then come in last the next year, you have an upset fan base and you are further from the Cup than you would have been prior to betting it all. However, you still have a team and you can still rebuild. It may take a few years or it may not, but there is no chance the team will all of the sudden be leaving Philadelphia. If you lose that job and have no savings you may have to sell off your stuff like you mentioned or declare bankruptcy and may not be able to get back on your feet. The difference between the two is that one is sport and one is life. If the Flyers go 0-82 the next five years because they went for it all this year and missed, it will suck, but it ain't the end of the world. If you lose everything you have, that is another story. Hence, it is not as bad to take a risk with things like sports than it is to take the risk with your life.

EDIT: I get what you are saying and the principle is the same, yes. But in practice it is very different.

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03-19-2011, 04:00 PM
  #83
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If Leino could be dealt for picks... that would help the Flyers rebuild its cupboard.

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03-19-2011, 04:15 PM
  #84
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So you guys would rather have us still rebuilding yes? In 06-07, we were dead last by A MILE. Some people seem to forget that. Would you rather us do a Pittsburgh and sit at the bottom of the league for 5 years? Homer did what he had to do to win right away. Players like Timonen, Pronger, and Hartnell didn't come for free. You can't just have a 40 point turn around by pulling stuff out of your ass. It comes at a price, and in the case, draft picks. I'm sure if we were still at the bottom of the league you guys would be singing a different tune. Homer rolled the dice for a chance at the cup. Only time will tell.

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03-19-2011, 04:18 PM
  #85
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It's pretty funny though I can't remember the last person we called up who was just horrible. It seems everytime we call somebody up they show potential. I mean who would of thought Nodl would be this good?

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03-19-2011, 04:51 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by flyersfan018 View Post
So you guys would rather have us still rebuilding yes? In 06-07, we were dead last by A MILE. Some people seem to forget that. Would you rather us do a Pittsburgh and sit at the bottom of the league for 5 years? Homer did what he had to do to win right away. Players like Timonen, Pronger, and Hartnell didn't come for free. You can't just have a 40 point turn around by pulling stuff out of your ass. It comes at a price, and in the case, draft picks. I'm sure if we were still at the bottom of the league you guys would be singing a different tune. Homer rolled the dice for a chance at the cup. Only time will tell.
While I don't think it's all doom and gloom, what those who believe it to be so are aiming at, I believe, isn't the acquisitions of Pronger, Timonen and Hartnell but rather the giving away of draft picks that Homer has done in other trades. The 2nd that followed Upshall to Phoenix, the 2nd that followed Gauthier to LA and such. This Sestito guy might turn out to be a steal, but I can't believe he commanded essentially a 3rd rounder. A 24 yo guy with 9 NHL games on his resume shouldn't be worth that if you go by other trades made.


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03-19-2011, 05:16 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
and people always act like everything is going to be great for the next 10 years when they have no clue either.
So you can predict the future now?

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03-19-2011, 05:25 PM
  #88
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So just because we dont know what the future holds, we shouldnt talk about it or worry about it? That doesnt make sense...
Talk is one thing and I agree with that. But why worry about something you have no control over.To me that makes sense. I have faith in this organization. Yes I have only seen them win two cups and it has been years since they won them. But I could not stand them to be out of the playoffs. Could you?

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03-19-2011, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by flyersfan018 View Post
So you guys would rather have us still rebuilding yes? In 06-07, we were dead last by A MILE. Some people seem to forget that. Would you rather us do a Pittsburgh and sit at the bottom of the league for 5 years? Homer did what he had to do to win right away. Players like Timonen, Pronger, and Hartnell didn't come for free. You can't just have a 40 point turn around by pulling stuff out of your ass. It comes at a price, and in the case, draft picks. I'm sure if we were still at the bottom of the league you guys would be singing a different tune. Homer rolled the dice for a chance at the cup. Only time will tell.
The doomers would be storming the Wells Fargo Center and burning it down

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03-19-2011, 05:56 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
While I don't think it's all doom and gloom, what those who believe it to be so are aiming at, I believe, isn't the acquisitions of Pronger, Timonen and Hartnell but rather the giving away of draft picks that Homer has done in other trades. The 2nd that followed Upshall to Phoenix, the 2nd that followed Gauthier to LA and such. This Sestito guy might turn out to be a steal, but I can't believe he commanded a 3rd rounder. A 24 yo guy with 9 NHL games on his resume shouldn't be worth that if you go by other trades made.
All I'm saying is you can't have it both ways. Flyers fans would be complaining if it took us a few years to rebuild and now they are complaining we gave up draft picks to make a quick turnaround.

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03-19-2011, 09:19 PM
  #91
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Jesus, some of you are thick.

I'm not complaining that we gave up draft picks; I'm stating that we can't continue to do so.

We've made our gambit. Now it's time to restock the cabinet as best as possible or we're going to be hurting from the moves Holmgren made to put us where we are. I totally understand what he was trying to do, and the results on the ice are positive. But he has had to waste more picks than necessary, and that's not ideal...if we don't start to change the fact that we have no prospects, it will become an issue sooner than many of you realize.

Not having prospects right now = trouble in 2-3 years (when we will need those players to be in the system). I get why he sold out our picks, but now it's time to start going in the other direction. It's a precarious situation.

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03-19-2011, 09:25 PM
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Jesus, some of you are thick.

I'm not complaining that we gave up draft picks; I'm stating that we can't continue to do so.

We've made our gambit. Now it's time to restock the cabinet as best as possible or we're going to be hurting from the moves Holmgren made to put us where we are. I totally understand what he was trying to do, and the results on the ice are positive. But he has had to waste more picks than necessary, and that's not ideal...if we don't start to change the fact that we have no prospects, it will become an issue sooner than many of you realize.

Not having prospects right now = trouble in 2-3 years (when we will need those players to be in the system). I get why he sold out our picks, but now it's time to start going in the other direction. It's a precarious situation.
Really, the only thing we are disagreeing with is the time-frame then. You see trouble in 2-3 years. I think we have at least 5. The most important pieces are already locked up. The Flyers have very few needs for the forseeable future. The most glaring one coming up is replacing Timonen, but then that takes care of itself. If he retires or doesn't re-sign, then you have 6 or 7 million you can throw at his replacement in free agency or via trade.

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03-20-2011, 09:45 AM
  #93
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The Phantoms poor play doesn't mean the individual players all suck. I think Wellwood and a couple others could play in the NHL eventually. I don't know who THN's panel of 18 scouts are anyway.

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03-20-2011, 10:20 AM
  #94
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All I'm saying is you can't have it both ways. Flyers fans would be complaining if it took us a few years to rebuild and now they are complaining we gave up draft picks to make a quick turnaround.
A lot of our draft picks have been wasted. Not really part of any material impact on this current club.

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03-20-2011, 10:23 AM
  #95
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A lot of our draft picks have been wasted. Not really part of any material impact on this current club.
Eminger, Gauthier, Carcillo to name a few wastes

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03-20-2011, 11:27 AM
  #96
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So you guys would rather have us still rebuilding yes? In 06-07, we were dead last by A MILE. Some people seem to forget that. Would you rather us do a Pittsburgh and sit at the bottom of the league for 5 years? Homer did what he had to do to win right away. Players like Timonen, Pronger, and Hartnell didn't come for free. You can't just have a 40 point turn around by pulling stuff out of your ass. It comes at a price, and in the case, draft picks. I'm sure if we were still at the bottom of the league you guys would be singing a different tune. Homer rolled the dice for a chance at the cup. Only time will tell.
Yes, in 06-07, the Flyers were dead last. As for the "rebuild" that Holmgren did, he didn't have too much work to do. Gagne, Knuble, Richards, Carter, Umberger, Kapanen, Hatcher and Niittymaki were already in place. Holmgren added Coburn (that trade was a complete steal for an over the hill Zhitnik), Biron (who was acquired for a 2nd round pick), Upshall and Parent (for Forsberg), Hartnell and Timonen (for Nashville's 1st)Smith and Lupul (for Pitkanen and Geoff Sanderson) and Briere as a free agent. Giroux was already in the system and JVR was the "reward" for finishing last.

The fact is that the Flyers rebuild took little time because there was already great talent in place, but more important, unlike the Pittsburghs or the Washingtons of years past, the Flyers were willing to spend money on the rebuild. The only time the Capitals and the Penguins ever decided to spend money on their rebuilds was the moment the league brought in the cap and revenue sharing.

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03-20-2011, 03:17 PM
  #97
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A lot of our draft picks have been wasted. Not really part of any material impact on this current club.
SOME of our draft picks have been wasted.

There's the first that went for Eminger, who with Downie went for Carle. As I think rather highly of Carle, and am convinced he gets us closer to a cup in the short term than a combination of Downie & Carlson, and certainly over Downie & Markstrom, it becomes rather difficult for me to call it a wasted pick.

The second in the Carcillo deal, definitely wasted. And I like Carcillo.

The second in the Gauthier deal, I guess it is wasted, but I understand what is going on there. Gauthier is Clarke's mistake, anyway.

Most of the picks haven't been wasted, but moved for significant assets. Assets such as Hartnell, Timonen, Pronger, Carle, Meszaros, and Versteeg.

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03-20-2011, 03:20 PM
  #98
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Carlson is better than Carle right now, let alone Carlson WITH Downie.

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03-20-2011, 03:27 PM
  #99
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but its ok because we are winning.
who needs prospects like John Carlson when you are winning.


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03-20-2011, 03:31 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Carlson is better than Carle right now, let alone Carlson WITH Downie.
Again, I think rather highly of Matt Carle. I think the fanbase sells him incredibly short.

However, I think we can all agree that Carle was certainly going to contribute more the last two years than Downie/Carlson.

Carlson's having a fine rookie season but I have a hard time saying he's a better option in a SCF series than Matt Carle at this moment in time.

I think Carlson goes on to become the better player rather easily, mind you, but it isn't as clear-cut as some would like to suggest, in my opinion.

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