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Flyers have worst farm system in NHL

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Old
03-20-2011, 03:37 PM
  #101
Jester
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
SOME of our draft picks have been wasted.

There's the first that went for Eminger, who with Downie went for Carle. As I think rather highly of Carle, and am convinced he gets us closer to a cup in the short term than a combination of Downie & Carlson, and certainly over Downie & Markstrom, it becomes rather difficult for me to call it a wasted pick.

The second in the Carcillo deal, definitely wasted. And I like Carcillo.

The second in the Gauthier deal, I guess it is wasted, but I understand what is going on there. Gauthier is Clarke's mistake, anyway.

Most of the picks haven't been wasted, but moved for significant assets. Assets such as Hartnell, Timonen, Pronger, Carle, Meszaros, and Versteeg.
We lost an extra 1st for Pronger because of the absolutely ludicrous Lupul contract.

The 3rd for Modry was terrible.

4th for Andrew Alberts -- only reason we had to cut a deal was because Holmgren *ed up that summer so badly.

There are more than just those you can find.

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03-20-2011, 03:39 PM
  #102
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Modry was awful, but I dont think the Alberts one was a waste.

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03-20-2011, 03:40 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We lost an extra 1st for Pronger because of the absolutely ludicrous Lupul contract.

The 3rd for Modry was terrible.

4th for Andrew Alberts -- only reason we had to cut a deal was because Holmgren *ed up that summer so badly.

There are more than just those you can find.
There's a difference between wasted picks and what you've posted here. A 4th is reasonable for Alberts. Modry was just a bad deal, which isn't the same thing as a wasted pick. I'm not so sure that Lupul's contract = a first either. We might not have had to give up a first, but I'm sure at least a 3rd was going to have to be included in lieu of it.

A lot of this is just quibbling.

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03-20-2011, 03:42 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Modry was awful, but I dont think the Alberts one was a waste.
It was a waste simply because the only reason we had to cut that deal was because Holmgren completely and utterly failed to create a serviceable NHL defense corps. If you go back and look at that defensive roster in training camp, it was absolutely pathetic. Even I, easily the most out front and harshest critic of John Stevens, gave him a pass on that front because Holmgren had failed so hard in constructing the roster that summer.

It was a waste, because with a bit of attention to the defensive roster that summer we would not have been in a position where we needed to burn a pick on a depth D.

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03-20-2011, 03:43 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
There's a difference between wasted picks and what you've posted here. A 4th is reasonable for Alberts. Modry was just a bad deal, which isn't the same thing as a wasted pick. I'm not so sure that Lupul's contract = a first either. We might not have had to give up a first, but I'm sure at least a 3rd was going to have to be included in lieu of it.

A lot of this is just quibbling.
Modry and Alberts had ZERO long-term benefit to this franchise... and both were marginal additions to the roster when they did come here. That's wasting draft picks.

*ing BIG difference between a 1st and a 3rd.

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03-20-2011, 03:44 PM
  #106
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They didn't turn around a last place finish into a serious contender in only a year. Notice Washington and Pittsburgh's farm teams.

Why worry about picks when you can trade them for talent you already know can produce at the NHL level?
They didn't need to trade the volume of picks they've traded to turn their team into a contender in one year. Much of the picks they trade came afterward so what exactly is your point? There are also teams like Detroit, New Jersey, and San Jose that contend pretty much on an annual basis without needing to trade the volume of picks Holmgren has given away. Some of you act like it's all or nothing. That the only way the Flyers could be a contender is if they give away their entire future which is not the case. The problem is Holmgren often pays too much and manages his assets poorly while other teams are able to contend without mortgaging their entire future.

Why worry about picks? If you want to contend for the long term you need picks to replace the contracts you can't afford to keep in the salary cap world.

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03-20-2011, 03:46 PM
  #107
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the Modry deal was unforgivable. that was like giving LA a free draft pick. You could have offered them future consiterations for him and LA would of taken it just to take that lump of crap off their hands
The Alberts deal wasnt much better, but at least he had moments where he looked ok. Modry just flat out sucked.

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03-20-2011, 03:48 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We lost an extra 1st for Pronger because of the absolutely ludicrous Lupul contract.

The 3rd for Modry was terrible.

4th for Andrew Alberts -- only reason we had to cut a deal was because Holmgren *ed up that summer so badly.

There are more than just those you can find.
I think we could of made one of those 1st rounders conditional instead of the 3rd. Holmgren was competing against himself for Pronger.

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03-20-2011, 03:48 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
the Modry deal was unforgivable. that was like giving LA a free draft pick. You could have offered them future consiterations for him and LA would of taken it just to take that lump of crap off their hands
The Alberts deal wasnt much better, but at least he had moments where he looked ok. Modry just flat out sucked.
If you take the Alberts deal out of the context of what had gone down that summer, it's not that bad a deal. As noted, the primary problem with it is that it was a deal that never should have been made.

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03-20-2011, 03:49 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I think we could of made one of those 1st rounders conditional instead of the 3rd. Holmgren was competing against himself for Pronger.
That's another factor, but it's getting rather complicated and we don't really need it to prove the basic point. The fact of the matter was that we paid to get Lupul's contract off our books.

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03-20-2011, 03:50 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by flyersfan018 View Post
So you guys would rather have us still rebuilding yes? In 06-07, we were dead last by A MILE. Some people seem to forget that. Would you rather us do a Pittsburgh and sit at the bottom of the league for 5 years? Homer did what he had to do to win right away. Players like Timonen, Pronger, and Hartnell didn't come for free. You can't just have a 40 point turn around by pulling stuff out of your ass. It comes at a price, and in the case, draft picks. I'm sure if we were still at the bottom of the league you guys would be singing a different tune. Homer rolled the dice for a chance at the cup. Only time will tell.
No one is saying they should never trade any picks, but they shouldn't be careless and give them all away. Since becoming GM Holmgren has traded a total of 6 first rounders (including Sbisa) and and five second rounders. Most of those picks were traded AFTER he turned the team around so it's laughable to suggest they'd still be a bottom feeder if he didn't trade them all. I don't necessarily mind the first he gave up for Timonen and Hartnell but if you recall they were free agents so yes he could have signed them without giving up any picks.

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03-20-2011, 03:53 PM
  #112
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I think we could of made one of those 1st rounders conditional instead of the 3rd. Holmgren was competing against himself for Pronger.
He competed against himself for Versteeg as well. Burke said no one else was willing to pay the price he wanted.

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03-20-2011, 03:54 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
He competed against himself for Versteeg as well. Burke said no one else was willing to pay the price he wanted.
The problem there is that Burke didn't necessarily "need" to trade Versteeg... so, if you wanted him, you had to pay Burke's price. I also don't think that price was all that out of line for Versteeg, but that's another matter.

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03-20-2011, 03:57 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you take the Alberts deal out of the context of what had gone down that summer, it's not that bad a deal. As noted, the primary problem with it is that it was a deal that never should have been made.
yeah it turned out to be Ned Lukacevic and the 4th rounder which turned out to be Lane MacDermid for Alberts. I think we all can agree the deal didnt have to be made, but Holmgren as usual overreacted and overpaid for a guy that was sitting in the pressbox in Boston.

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03-20-2011, 04:01 PM
  #115
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He competed against himself for Versteeg as well. Burke said no one else was willing to pay the price he wanted.
this is the problem with not having any prospect to trade. you have to trade high draft picks for players you want. he was probably afraid he was going to go Pittsburgh for a 2nd rounder and one of the kids in WBS.

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03-20-2011, 04:01 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Modry and Alberts had ZERO long-term benefit to this franchise... and both were marginal additions to the roster when they did come here. That's wasting draft picks.

*ing BIG difference between a 1st and a 3rd.
But did, in theory, have short-term benefit.

Alberts certainly did, Modry turned out to be all liability. Not every deal is made for the long-term benefit of a club. Some deals are made for the short-term benefit of the club. This is reality, not a video game, deals such as those are necessary and happen with every club. It's just plain silly and unreasonable to sit there and maintain that EVERY deal that goes down MUST benefit the club in the LONG-term.

Anyway, you're quibbling here. What are the chances that a 3rd or 4th round pick were going to yield anything of tangible value for this club? We're not getting any pedigreed prospects in those rounds.

We've certainly wasted some second round picks, and we've given out a lot of 1sts in assembling this roster, but much of your argument only goes to illustrate the strange premium posters put on draft picks and farm systems on HF as opposed to the actual product on the ice at the NHL level, which I suppose makes sense give the purpose of the site.

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03-20-2011, 04:16 PM
  #117
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But did, in theory, have short-term benefit.

Alberts certainly did, Modry turned out to be all liability. Not every deal is made for the long-term benefit of a club. Some deals are made for the short-term benefit of the club. This is reality, not a video game, deals such as those are necessary and happen with every club. It's just plain silly and unreasonable to sit there and maintain that EVERY deal that goes down MUST benefit the club in the LONG-term.

Anyway, you're quibbling here. What are the chances that a 3rd or 4th round pick were going to yield anything of tangible value for this club? We're not getting any pedigreed prospects in those rounds.

We've certainly wasted some second round picks, and we've given out a lot of 1sts in assembling this roster, but much of your argument only goes to illustrate the strange premium posters put on draft picks and farm systems on HF as opposed to the actual product on the ice at the NHL level, which I suppose makes sense give the purpose of the site.
That's just it: Alberts was not necessary. He was made to be necessary because Holmgren was a complete jackass that summer when it came to getting a legitimate group of 6 NHL-worthy defensemen.

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03-21-2011, 10:30 AM
  #118
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That's just it: Alberts was not necessary. He was made to be necessary because Holmgren was a complete jackass that summer when it came to getting a legitimate group of 6 NHL-worthy defensemen.
You are contradicting yourself in one post. I can understand what you are saying. But at the time, we needed somone like alberts on the blueline. A fourth round pick wasn't the worst deal in the world for what he brought to the team.

Modry on the other hand was one of homers "projects". He thought he could turn him around back into all star form. Didn't work out, and the flyers got blasted everytime he took to the ice.

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03-21-2011, 10:41 AM
  #119
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Jester's point is that Holmgren should have gotten someone like Alberts as a UFA in the offseason

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03-21-2011, 10:59 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You are contradicting yourself in one post. I can understand what you are saying. But at the time, we needed somone like alberts on the blueline. A fourth round pick wasn't the worst deal in the world for what he brought to the team.

Modry on the other hand was one of homers "projects". He thought he could turn him around back into all star form. Didn't work out, and the flyers got blasted everytime he took to the ice.
That's like complaining that you need a hand after chopping off your own hand.

Holmgren created a gaping hole on the blue line that summer, which then necessitated a trade that should not have been necessary.

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03-21-2011, 11:20 AM
  #121
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Timonen-Coburn
Eminger-Parent
Väänänen-Jones
Kukkonen

was our d's we meant to start the season with that year, right? Then Parent (of course) and Jones were injured, and Sbisa was on the opening roster. Something like that? (Not the pairing of course, I just put them down as I thought of them)

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03-21-2011, 11:21 AM
  #122
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only 4 of those 7 still in the NHL (and one is Jones)

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03-21-2011, 11:28 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
Timonen-Coburn
Eminger-Parent
Väänänen-Jones
Kukkonen

was our d's we meant to start the season with that year, right? Then Parent (of course) and Jones were injured, and Sbisa was on the opening roster. Something like that? (Not the pairing of course, I just put them down as I thought of them)
Injuries were part of it... but it was also clear (very quickly) that we didn't have enough NHL talent... as is obvious looking at that.

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03-21-2011, 01:07 PM
  #124
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Injuries were part of it... but it was also clear (very quickly) that we didn't have enough NHL talent... as is obvious looking at that.
Yeah, going with Väänänen, who came over from Europe after no one had wanted him the previous season, Kukkonen who was clearly not a player Stevens was confident playing and Parent who despite looking like the real deal when he came up the season before was still unproven, was not the best idea. Add into that Jones sucking/injured and Eminger not really being worth that 1st rounder unfortunately. Maybe it's not so strange that Coburn's progress was stunted... Let's not forget that Carle was not exactly looking confident when he came over from Tampa either.

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03-21-2011, 01:10 PM
  #125
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Yeah, going with Väänänen, who came over from Europe after no one had wanted him the previous season, Kukkonen who was clearly not a player Stevens was confident playing and Parent who despite looking like the real deal when he came up the season before was still unproven, was not the best idea. Add into that Jones sucking/injured and Eminger not really being worth that 1st rounder unfortunately. Maybe it's not so strange that Coburn's progress was stunted... Let's not forget that Carle was not exactly looking confident when he came over from Tampa either.
What is awesome about it was that it was essentially Timonen and Coburn... and a bunch of 3rd pairing at best players, and Coburn was far from where he is today (and his game still has some holes now when he doesn't concentrate). And if you go back to all of that on this message board, I know there was a lot of chatter concerning just how terrible our D was.

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