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"Time for Flyers fans to appreciate Carter"

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Old
03-20-2011, 11:08 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Disagree with this. All moments are not equal. All moments do not count the same. All moments do not carry the same significance.

Your last comment was so childish it doesn't deserve a response. Slap yourself in the face and go sit in the corner for being a dunce.
But they are you can't debate that. Two points in a basketball game is two points no matter when it is scored. A goal scored in the first second counts the same as one scored in the last second.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 03-20-2011 at 11:23 PM. Reason: flaming
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03-20-2011, 11:09 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No one has denied that "clutch" plays that have great weight for the outcome of games exist... what people have denied is that there is any relevance in tying players to their performance in those situations. The VAST wealth of information looking at player performance in such situations -- which is empirical -- shows that players perform in those situations just as you would expect them to in any other situation.

Scoring a go-ahead or tying goal with a minute to go in the game? Hugely important; however, if you put player X in that situation, he performs in it just as he does in the first minute of the game.

Therefore, "clutch" players don't really exist... and basing your analysis/appreciation of players based on "clutch" is the same thing as the quest for unicorns and leprechauns which you may be currently involved in as well.

Disagree with this.

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03-20-2011, 11:10 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Disagree with this.
Well, you're wrong. Don't know what to tell you. There's literally a metric ton of data saying that you're wrong.

I used to believe in clutch... then I educated myself about it.

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03-20-2011, 11:12 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by xchrisx159 View Post
But they are you can't debate that. Two points in a basketball game is two points no matter when it is scored. A goal scored in the first second counts the same as one scored in the last second.
Counts the same as two points any other time yes, but the difference is the moment and situation. Two points may be two points but two points at the beginning of the game and two points to win or lose is entirely different.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 03-20-2011 at 11:24 PM. Reason: QDP
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03-20-2011, 11:15 PM
  #180
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Jester, i'm still waiting on you to prove all players revert to mean as you stated it.

Prove it.

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03-20-2011, 11:16 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Counts the same as two points any other time yes, but the difference is the moment and situation. Two points may be two points but two points at the beginning of the game and two points to win or lose is entirely different.
What you are identifying is "clutch situations." That's all fine and good. That's actually easy to figure out. "Late and close," for example. The problem you're having is that once you identify those situations and then apply situational statistics to players, you find no significant change in performance... which is what you would expect to find if there really was a clutch phenomena out there in players.

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03-20-2011, 11:18 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Counts the same as two points any other time yes, but the difference is the moment and situation. Two points may be two points but two points at the beginning of the game and two points to win or lose is entirely different.
Never, ever have I found this more applicable; feel free to apply it to any of your posts:


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Old
03-20-2011, 11:18 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
What you are identifying is "clutch situations." That's all fine and good. That's actually easy to figure out. "Late and close," for example. The problem you're having is that once you identify those situations and then apply situational statistics to players, you find no significant change in performance... which is what you would expect to find if there really was a clutch phenomena out there in players.
What situational stats are you referring to?

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03-20-2011, 11:22 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Jester, i'm still waiting on you to prove all players revert to mean as you stated it.

Prove it.
Shotscore, this might be hard for you. You're the one spouting ignorance engaged in a conversation in which you are FAR beyond your depth. You have provided not one bit of evidence supporting your claims (all you've done is make declarative statements and provide faulty evidence). You're actually engaged in a conversation that has happened many times on here before, and on a topic in which the thing you are currently connected to (the internet) is full of information about.

So, go *ing read something about clutch rather than proving that you're ignorant on the topic. The theoretical underpinnings of investigating clutch have been clearly explained in this thread, you've simply chosen to ignore that because it doesn't conform to your faulty world view. You've been led to the light, now it is up to you to take the time and go read about something you're woefully ill-prepared to converse with others about.

Go to this site: www.google.com

From there you will be able to find a wealth of information concerning the discussion and research concerning the existence of clutch. You should keep your eye out for Bill James, and from there you'll find a vortex of numbers and analysis that will probably be a bit too much for you. A that point, you'll discover just how stupid your request for me to prove that players tend to revert to mean on a message board is.

What is going on here is that you're talking about something you fundamentally don't understand. Go educate yourself.

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03-20-2011, 11:24 PM
  #185
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This discussion reminds me of the discussion in the Phillies thread recently.....

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03-20-2011, 11:24 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
What situational stats are you referring to?
Seriously, you don't know about situational stats and you're trying to talk to people about the existence of clutch?

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03-20-2011, 11:37 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Shotscore, this might be hard for you. You're the one spouting ignorance engaged in a conversation in which you are FAR beyond your depth. You have provided not one bit of evidence supporting your claims (all you've done is make declarative statements and provide faulty evidence). You're actually engaged in a conversation that has happened many times on here before, and on a topic in which the thing you are currently connected to (the internet) is full of information about.

So, go *ing read something about clutch rather than proving that you're ignorant on the topic. The theoretical underpinnings of investigating clutch have been clearly explained in this thread, you've simply chosen to ignore that because it doesn't conform to your faulty world view. You've been led to the light, now it is up to you to take the time and go read about something you're woefully ill-prepared to converse with others about.

Go to this site: www.google.com

From there you will be able to find a wealth of information concerning the discussion and research concerning the existence of clutch. You should keep your eye out for Bill James, and from there you'll find a vortex of numbers and analysis that will probably be a bit too much for you. A that point, you'll discover just how stupid your request for me to prove that players tend to revert to mean on a message board is.

What is going on here is that you're talking about something you fundamentally don't understand. Go educate yourself.

Jester,

Not only are you an ignoramus, your a fraud as well.

I provided more than enough statistical evidence to explain why Derek Jeter can rightly be considered clutch.

Your response was to deny this and say all players revert to mean.

I said prove it and you give me a link to a baseball site.

I asked you to prove it again and asked for the situational statistics you referred to and you chose to curse and smear and give me a link to google.

That is a non-answer and a sure sign that you've lost the argument.

All I've seen from you is a bunch of non-answers and intellectual cowardice.

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Old
03-20-2011, 11:37 PM
  #188
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I think everyone needs to just shut the **** up or just close this thread and maybe restart it.

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Old
03-20-2011, 11:42 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I think everyone needs to just shut the **** up or just close this thread and maybe restart it.
I don't understand why it came to this. I joined this board to talk Flyers hockey with fellow fans. I never cursed anyone or lost my temper or acted like an ass once and I sure didn't expect this kind of behavior.

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Old
03-20-2011, 11:44 PM
  #190
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Well, I'd say this has run it's course.

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