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Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the hat0r thread)

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Old
03-21-2011, 12:36 AM
  #76
piercehannigan
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
I take it you haven't watched a Capitals game the past 2 seasons. Green has improved his defense and has always been a one man breakout out of the defensive zone.
Yeah, I agree he has improved. But if there was a chance to trade him for a better defensive defenseman, then I am all for it.

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03-21-2011, 12:40 AM
  #77
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Offering the Capitals futures is a non-starter. I get that the Islanders' top assets are in futures right now, but that doesn't change the fact that the Capitals are trying to win now.
Yea I had kind of figured I'd get that response. Isles are about 3 years from being able to trade off NHL talent. But at the same time, Wideman has played pretty well for the caps and could replace Green with a lower cap hit. The reason i went ahead and make the offer anyway was because i know GMGM likes to keep supplement his team/manage the cap with good young talent.

Am I far off with the value though?

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03-21-2011, 12:41 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by piercehannigan View Post
Yeah, I agree he has improved. But if there was a chance to trade him for a better defensive defenseman, then I am all for it.
Agreed, but for who?

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03-21-2011, 12:42 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Riseonfire View Post
Yea I had kind of figured I'd get that response. Isles are about 3 years from being able to trade off NHL talent. But at the same time, Wideman has played pretty well for the caps and could replace Green with a lower cap hit. The reason i went ahead and make the offer anyway was because i know GMGM likes to keep supplement his team/manage the cap with good young talent.

Am I far off with the value though?
Assuming that pick is a top 5 pick then I'd say the value is fine.

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03-21-2011, 12:46 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
Agreed, but for who?
I dunno. I'd have to think about who would fit our system better.

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03-21-2011, 01:10 AM
  #81
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i can't see GMGM moving Green with out a massive overpayment. think lindross package

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03-21-2011, 01:11 AM
  #82
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Let's never forget that Green has to play with a ball and chain around his leg: Jeff Schultz.

Green is an elite offensive talent. IMO, Green-Hannan makes Green a different player and boosts the team O. But Coach Boudreau doesn't see it.

Schultz isn't terrible, really. But let's face it he's a soft, bottom pairing man, he has good reach and a decent pass. But he's so easy to play against that replacing Schultz might make the team a lot better. Having him with Green is buffoonery.

Hannan Green
Alzner Carlson
Wideman ________ (someone mean)

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Old
03-21-2011, 01:55 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riseonfire View Post
Yea I had kind of figured I'd get that response. Isles are about 3 years from being able to trade off NHL talent. But at the same time, Wideman has played pretty well for the caps and could replace Green with a lower cap hit. The reason i went ahead and make the offer anyway was because i know GMGM likes to keep supplement his team/manage the cap with good young talent.

Am I far off with the value though?
Value seems fine. Leonsis and McPhee will want impact player(s), though, I suspect, if the Caps are trading impact player(s) at a time when the club is contending — or trying to contend.

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03-21-2011, 01:58 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
i can't see GMGM moving Green with out a massive overpayment. think lindross package
No offense, but Green can't sniff Lindros. And I'm a big Green supporter.

At the time of that trade, Lindros had just been drafted 1st overall and was being billed as the "next one." He was Crosby before Crosby. And the Nordiques were pretty much forced to trade him because he didn't want to play for them.

Green may be an exceptional talent, but he doesn't command Eric Lindros value. The package they sent back for Lindros, when simplified, ended up being Peter Forsberg + Patrick Roy++ (one of the picks was used on Thibault, which was the centerpiece in the trade that brought in Roy).



More on topic, I don't see the necessity to trade Green this off-season. Obviously the play-offs will change everyone on the rosters' value, but based on the situation now, I don't feel it would be wise to trade Green currently. His value is low and he's hurt, so we'd be getting 70 cents on the dollar of what he could command coming off a stronger year. And we're not at risk of losing him for nothing after next season, either. Seeing as he's going to be an RFA and already commands a $5M+ salary, any offer sheets pushed his way would be at least two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd (and could potentially be four 1sts). Any futures-only trade offer would have to be higher in value than that for me to consider trading an extra year of Green's service.

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03-21-2011, 02:36 AM
  #85
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I can't imagine Green getting moved for anything less than an all star level player coming back.

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03-21-2011, 02:37 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
i can't see GMGM moving Green with out a massive overpayment. think lindross package
No...

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Old
03-21-2011, 02:54 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
No...
Sellers market for young top of the league D man. Im not saying hes worth that type of return, but i think GMGM would want a massive overpayment to trade Green. You may not value Green that high but Mcphee thinks differently just look at the contract we gave him. My point is there is no reason for the caps to trade Green unless we get a overwhelming offer he cant refuse.
When has GMGM ever sold for less then market value? Oates, Eminger, Clark, Pettinger he got more then we thought he could in all those trades.

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03-21-2011, 04:35 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
Sellers market for young top of the league D man. Im not saying hes worth that type of return, but i think GMGM would want a massive overpayment to trade Green. You may not value Green that high but Mcphee thinks differently just look at the contract we gave him. My point is there is no reason for the caps to trade Green unless we get a overwhelming offer he cant refuse.
When has GMGM ever sold for less then market value? Oates, Eminger, Clark, Pettinger he got more then we thought he could in all those trades.
I would love seeing GMGM get a to-scale return of the Eminger trade with Green. That'd have to be something ridiculous, like two firsts and a top-75 prospect plus more.

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03-21-2011, 06:53 AM
  #89
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as with many things this season all the answers lie in what happens in the playoffs? could green's performance get him removed? i think so. do i think thats likely? no. do i think dennis wideman is a better player for the caps than green? no. do i think carlson is going to be the offensive producer that green is? no.

if green didnt exist, carlson and wideman with orlov coming would be about as good as it gets, but that doesnt effect the reality which is that green has a set of skills that are unique to him. i am impressed by his devotion to improving his defensive game and the quality that he has made of it. if he is able to play in the playoffs and that improved game comes to the fore, then letting any other nhl team have him would be a mistake.

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03-21-2011, 07:25 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
No offense, but Green can't sniff Lindros. And I'm a big Green supporter.
Funny how OV has made me completely forget about Lindros. Lindros was to take the game to a new level -- basically a kid with the body and strength of an NFL Defensive Lineman who also had tremendous skill and hockey smarts as well. But he didnt nearly have the energy, heart, drive and determination that Ovechkin has, and hence his career turned out to be well below everyone's expectations.

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03-21-2011, 07:56 AM
  #91
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There's no reason you can't trade him for futures, and then flip futures for another impact player. Then it becomes a question of where you look for a replacement, but it's not like it's something that can't be considered.

That said I don't see the point in trading him this offseason, because I don't believe the value will be there. Unless they know ahead of time that he's going to be too expensive to extend they don't need to rush to make a decision at least until they see how he fully recovers. When he's at his best he's a huge x-factor for the team.

If he flames out in the playoffs but it can be reasonably explained as being the aftermath of his head injury then I don't see them walking away without figuring out his recovery first. If he's back and healthy but still a disappointment then you can say they might be ready to move on, maybe.

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03-21-2011, 08:09 AM
  #92
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value wise you have the standard catch-22. right? if he blows in the playoffs to the point that organizational confidence in him is destroyed, he's not going to carry a lot of trade value with a $5m cap hit. conversely if he plays well enough to drive his trade value, why would mcphee want to trade him? given that, he'd rather move wideman or more likely schultz or let hannan walk.

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03-21-2011, 08:52 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
No offense, but Green can't sniff Lindros. And I'm a big Green supporter.

At the time of that trade, Lindros had just been drafted 1st overall and was being billed as the "next one." He was Crosby before Crosby. And the Nordiques were pretty much forced to trade him because he didn't want to play for them.

Green may be an exceptional talent, but he doesn't command Eric Lindros value. The package they sent back for Lindros, when simplified, ended up being Peter Forsberg + Patrick Roy++ (one of the picks was used on Thibault, which was the centerpiece in the trade that brought in Roy).
I think he was referring to THIS Lindros trade...

Flyers GM Bobby Clarke eventually traded Lindros to the New York Rangers on August 20, 2001 for Jan Hlaváč, Kim Johnsson, Pavel Brendl, and a 2003 3rd-round draft choice (Štefan Ružička).

Or at least...I hope...

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Old
03-21-2011, 09:00 AM
  #94
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Ok hypothetical:
Green does not come back this season at all and the Caps win the cup without him with Hannan, Arnott, Knuble, Laich, Semin, and Wideman all playing big parts. Does that change how you think the Caps should deal with handling Green as an asset?

Do you ship him out in order to help make room to keep the winning group together then?

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03-21-2011, 09:11 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Ok hypothetical:
Green does not come back this season at all and the Caps win the cup without him with Hannan, Arnott, Knuble, Laich, Semin, and Wideman all playing big parts. Does that change how you think the Caps should deal with handling Green as an asset?

Do you ship him out in order to help make room to keep the winning group together then?
You can probably keep every single one of those guys AND Green if you find a way to get rid of Poti, or eat his contract. Might need to dump someone like Chimera too (replaced by A. Gordon), if some of my estimates are off by more than a bit.

Lineup based on assumption that we keep every recent acquisition and key contributor, and assuming certain attrition on defense (bolded salary indicates my projection):

Ovie (9.538)- Backstrom (6.7) - Knuble (2.0)
Laich (3.5) - Arnott (3.0) - Semin (6.7)
Chimera (1.8) - Johansson (.90) - Fehr (2.2)
Beagle (.512) - Gordo (.9) - Hendricks (.825)
King (.637)

Carlson (.846) - Alzner (2.25)
Hannan (3.0) - Green (5.25)
Schultz (2.75) - Wideman (3.875)
Erskine (1.5)


Neuvirth (1.15)
Varly (1.25)

TOTAL: $61.0m
Likely 2011-2012 Cap: $61.5-$63m


Last edited by CapsWolverinesUSA: 03-21-2011 at 09:58 AM.
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03-21-2011, 09:34 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
I take it you haven't watched a Capitals game the past 2 seasons. Green has improved his defense and has always been a one man breakout out of the defensive zone.
Green is still a poor defensive player and his "one man breakout" doesnt work in the playoffs, where teams target him and take that away from him. His inability to recognize this (so far) is a problem. To date, he still tries to deke around players when he is the last man back. This has burned him, and the team in the playoffs....a good example was when he tried this and Mike Richards took it, skated in, and scored....in the playoffs.

Now, seeing how on HF these days, whenever you dont praise someone you must be trashing him. I am not saying he stinks as a hockey player at all.....but I think its foolish not to consider options with this player. He is due a new contract, which rarely is a pay cut. He hasnt proven he can play well in the playoffs.....and I feel a player with this many holes/questions isnt someone you spend 5+ (and term) without looking at other options.

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03-21-2011, 09:37 AM
  #97
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The way I see it working out is simple. Green has shown he is working hard to improve in his own zone but injuries keep short changing his progress. He'll have the rest of this year and playoffs to show results. If he flops then they'll probably seek out other options. If his results are anywhere above a flop then he'll get most of next year to show he's gotten it. If not he'll be dead line bait. We'll know his salary demands after Jan 1 as well.

Ideally I agree with the poster who said dump Sloan, Poti and Schultz and keep Alzner, Carlson, Wideman, Hannan, Green and Erskine. Either bring up someone from Hershey or sign a cheap vet not named Sloan.

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03-21-2011, 09:40 AM
  #98
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I don't think you can reasonably trade Green.

He has a unique skillset. No one else can lead the breakout the way he does. That gives him incredible value -- both to the Caps, and to other teams. I doubt he will flop in a manner that reduces his value. Especially when you consider his improving defensive play.

Don't forget that he's the first dman in how long to score 30 goals? He's young and has 2 PPG seasons? How many dmen in the NHL currently have had 2 PPG seasons?

If you were to trade him, the return would have to be absurd -- young, cheap, quality players. And I don't see why another team would give up what we'd want, which I imagine would equate to a #2C + a good dman to replace him, at a minimum.

To the initial question: if the Caps are trading Green, why are they getting the 2012 1st rounder instead of the 2011 1st rounder? I'm honestly not sure that the Islanders have the right parts to get the deal done, anyways. Caps would want players on ELCs that are capable of playing a major role in win-now teams.

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Old
03-21-2011, 09:57 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
You can probably keep every single one of those guys AND Green if you find a way to get rid of Poti, or eat his contract. Might need to dump someone like Chimera too.
Sure if everyone decided to take healthy discounts to stay with the Caps they could but realistically keeping them all but coming off a cup that isn't going to happen.

And they aren't trading Poti simply because nobody is going to take damaged goods for an almost $3 mil cap hit and I can't see McPhee Nylandering him seeing as he signed a home team discounted contract to stay.

Cup of not I don't see Chimera staying as they can't afford to commit that much to a guy playing that role going forward if they hope to keep the more important players.


Last edited by Millhaus: 03-21-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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Old
03-21-2011, 10:03 AM
  #100
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Sure if everyone decided to take healthy discounts to stay with the Caps they could but realistically keeping them all coming off a cup that isn't going to happen.

And they aren't trading Poti simply because nobody is going to take damaged goods for an almost $3 mil cap hit and I can't see McPhee Nylandering him seeing as he signed a home team discounted contract to stay.

Cup of not I don't see Chimera staying as they can't afford to commit that much to a guy playing that role going forward if they hope to keep the more important players.
See the above salary table I pasted in. Feel free to discuss any estimates you feel are unreasonably low. And let's not start down the road of seriously discussing whether they'll prioritize acting like nice guys over keeping a two-time Norris finalist. If we're taking your premise that the team is 100% committed to bringing back the entire cast of characters who star in a hypothetical deep playoff run, then something has to give, and that something will be fringe players before it's a guy who has been a 1st team NHL All Star twice in the last 3 years.


Last edited by CapsWolverinesUSA: 03-21-2011 at 10:11 AM.
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