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Most complete player ever? Orr vs. Howe vs. Trottier

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Old
07-18-2005, 11:25 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Roughneck
5 Bobby Orr's + no goalie would probably beat 5 of anyone else and an average goalie.

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07-18-2005, 11:33 AM
  #27
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I think, when we get to Heaven, God will show us how great Orr would have been with healthy knees. How great Lemieux would have been without cancer and a bad back. How many cups the Oilers would have won if Pocklington didn't sell Gretzky.

Then again, Heaven might be so amazing we may no longer care.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 07-18-2005 at 12:07 PM.
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07-18-2005, 01:18 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Chili
Agree with alot of the names mentioned, in particular, Messier, Potvin Trottier and Bourque.

One name I didn't see who I would add...Larry Robinson. He dominated in several areas in his prime. He controled the front of the net, the corners, skated the puck up ice and generated alot of offence. And was one of the better fighters I've seen.
I have a hard time with the notion of complete player because some players where so damn good at their specialty,that the opposition altered their lineup to account for them. There was nothing incomplete about Lafleur,Gretzky,Lemieux etc., you don't have to check anyone when you always have the puck. I'm glad you mention Larry Robinson. Sometimes guys get pigeonholed into a great offensive d man,great checking winger,sniper,whatever. Larry was a great hockey player. One other thing about #19, take a look at Van Morrison's Moondance album and tell me he doesn't look like a young Larry Robinson.

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07-18-2005, 03:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by mcphee
I have a hard time with the notion of complete player because some players where so damn good at their specialty,that the opposition altered their lineup to account for them. There was nothing incomplete about Lafleur,Gretzky,Lemieux etc., you don't have to check anyone when you always have the puck. I'm glad you mention Larry Robinson. Sometimes guys get pigeonholed into a great offensive d man,great checking winger,sniper,whatever. Larry was a great hockey player. One other thing about #19, take a look at Van Morrison's Moondance album and tell me he doesn't look like a young Larry Robinson.
Robinson was good and he deserves to be up in there but he's not in the same league as Orr by any means. He was very good defensively and offensively he could carry the puck into the zone like any good d-man could. He also won the Norris in '77 and '80. He did everything good that's for sure but he didnt do everything GREAT the way Orr did. Robinson might be in the top ten list for most complete players ever but he's no Orr or Howe.

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07-18-2005, 03:30 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
I have a hard time with the notion of complete player because some players where so damn good at their specialty,that the opposition altered their lineup to account for them. There was nothing incomplete about Lafleur,Gretzky,Lemieux etc., you don't have to check anyone when you always have the puck.

See I disagree. Gretzky and Lemieux were, as you say, so ridiculously proficient at offense that they transcended the game; it was simply an entirely different game when they were on the ice. That is not to suggest that they were stiffs in other aspects of the game, not at all. But it also does not equate to them being as proficient as other players in other aspects, as all around. Gretzky himself (ever the modest person) suggested at one time that Trottier was the most complete player in the game at that time. No one would ever argue who was the more dominant. But there is a difference.

Regardless, Bobby Orr is the most complete player I ever saw. And the greatest ever, period.


One other thing about #19, take a look at Van Morrison's Moondance album and tell me he doesn't look like a young Larry Robinson.



GREAT album.


Last edited by Trottier: 07-18-2005 at 03:35 PM.
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07-18-2005, 04:42 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I think, when we get to Heaven, God will show us how great Orr would have been with healthy knees. How great Lemieux would have been without cancer and a bad back. How many cups the Oilers would have won if Pocklington didn't sell Gretzky.

Then again, Heaven might be so amazing we may no longer care.
Ogopogo,

I couldn't agree more.

As for the most complete player, I would have to say Orr. Not only is he the most revolutionary player in the history of the game, he set league assists records (eventually broken by Gretzky), was one of the greatest skaters and passers ever seen, could stickhandle around anyone, was big and strong, could fight with the best of them, and was defensively sound. He's the greatest player to ever lace on blades. Gretzky and Howe had better careers (a reflection of their longevity) but Orr is the greatest PLAYER ever.

By the way, as much as I love Trottier (one of the 10 best centres of all-time, IMO), I would say Richard is more deserving of a place on this survey.

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07-18-2005, 08:36 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
How many cups the Oilers would have won if Pocklington didn't sell Gretzky.
lol; what happened in 86? playing in a weak run and gun conference (remember those series against the BlackHawks and Murray Bananaman, where 99 and the Oielrs would rack up 44 goals in 5 games?) they're tied in the 3rd period of a 7th game against a team who woudl lose in 5 game in the finals.

Guy Lafleur never let the Habs down in their great years especially in the 7th game against the Bruins. No Miracle on Manchesters there.

btw 99 wanted to go to a richer team to boost his salary. he didnt get "sold" by big bad peter. Thats another 99 myth.

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07-18-2005, 08:49 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Big Phil
Robinson was good and he deserves to be up in there but he's not in the same league as Orr by any means. He was very good defensively and offensively he could carry the puck into the zone like any good d-man could. He also won the Norris in '77 and '80. He did everything good that's for sure but he didnt do everything GREAT the way Orr did. Robinson might be in the top ten list for most complete players ever but he's no Orr or Howe.
I agree. I'd be a fool to argue Larry against Orr. IMO, no one compares to Orr. I was just glad to see him mentionned, always one of my favorites,class guy,class player.

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07-18-2005, 08:55 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Trottier
Trottier,I can't argue,I don't think it's arguable exactly, the term most complete doesn't mean better, it would be assinine to argue Lemaire over Lafleur, though in terms of how we'd define 'complete'... Also, Orr was complete as there was nothing to do on the ice that he couldn't do better than everyone else.

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07-18-2005, 10:08 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by chooch
lol; what happened in 86? playing in a weak run and gun conference (remember those series against the BlackHawks and Murray Bananaman, where 99 and the Oielrs would rack up 44 goals in 5 games?) they're tied in the 3rd period of a 7th game against a team who woudl lose in 5 game in the finals.

Guy Lafleur never let the Habs down in their great years especially in the 7th game against the Bruins. No Miracle on Manchesters there.

btw 99 wanted to go to a richer team to boost his salary. he didnt get "sold" by big bad peter. Thats another 99 myth.

How much to cross the bridge, Mr. Troll?

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07-18-2005, 10:56 PM
  #36
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Can't resist any longer. Trottier does not belong in this group... not even close. Yes, he was a very good all-around player for a decent period of time, but, just for example, I would rate Bobby Clarke better than Trottier in terms of leadership, toughness, playmaking and defense.... and very close in scoring... and I'm not saying Bobby Clarke deserves to be on the list either... just provding some evidence for my opinion. In his prime, Lindros might also warrant consideration... though I acknowledge defensively he may not have been on par. Really, there are too many to name, but Orr would have to be on anyone's list.

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07-19-2005, 04:12 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
How much to cross the bridge, Mr. Troll?
for you 99 cents;

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07-19-2005, 07:12 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I think, when we get to Heaven, God will show us how great Orr would have been with healthy knees. How great Lemieux would have been without cancer and a bad back. How many cups the Oilers would have won if Pocklington didn't sell Gretzky.

Then again, Heaven might be so amazing we may no longer care.
If you and Chooch are bickering up there, I'm going to brave the eternal fires.

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Old
07-19-2005, 06:43 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by emmjayb
Can't resist any longer. Trottier does not belong in this group... not even close. Yes, he was a very good all-around player for a decent period of time, but, just for example, I would rate Bobby Clarke better than Trottier in terms of leadership, toughness, playmaking and defense.... and very close in scoring... and I'm not saying Bobby Clarke deserves to be on the list either... just provding some evidence for my opinion. In his prime, Lindros might also warrant consideration... though I acknowledge defensively he may not have been on par. Really, there are too many to name, but Orr would have to be on anyone's list.
Wow no love for Trottier eh? Why is that. He's often mentioned as the most all around player ever. Clarke is up there for sure but to me Clarke had too short of a prime. The Flyers won 2 Cups, and the Isles four straight. Not that it makes that much of a difference but Trottier was no wuss either when it came to the rough stuff. His high in goals was 50, his high in points was 134. Clarke's was 35, and 119 points. And Trottier could hit as good as he could score. Maybe Messier is on par with him but not Clarke IMO.

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07-19-2005, 07:59 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
Wow no love for Trottier eh? Why is that. He's often mentioned as the most all around player ever. Clarke is up there for sure but to me Clarke had too short of a prime. The Flyers won 2 Cups, and the Isles four straight. Not that it makes that much of a difference but Trottier was no wuss either when it came to the rough stuff. His high in goals was 50, his high in points was 134. Clarke's was 35, and 119 points. And Trottier could hit as good as he could score. Maybe Messier is on par with him but not Clarke IMO.
Clarke's prime too short and your reasoning is that the Isles won 2 Cups to the Flyers 2 ???

Trottier did play longer than Clarke, and it is one of Clarke's regrets that he didn't player another few years, but he took the GM job, that may not have been around at another time.

As good as Trottier was, and he was a great player no doubt about that, IMO he was the 3rd best Islander. Clarke never played with a defenseman half as good as Potvin.

Clarke
Masterton
Twice a 1st team all-star
Twice a 2nd team all-star
One Selke
Three Hart's

Trottier
King Clancy
Twice a 1st team all-star
Twice a 2nd team all-star
One Calder
One Hart
One Conn Smythe

The Hockey News rankings

Potvin - 19
Bossy - 20
Clarke - 23
Trottier - 30

Other comparable centers and where they were ranked by THN after the 97 season:

Messier - 12
Mikita - 17
Schmidt - 27
H. Richard - 29

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Old
07-19-2005, 08:01 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
Wow no love for Trottier eh? Why is that. He's often mentioned as the most all around player ever. Clarke is up there for sure but to me Clarke had too short of a prime. The Flyers won 2 Cups, and the Isles four straight. Not that it makes that much of a difference but Trottier was no wuss either when it came to the rough stuff. His high in goals was 50, his high in points was 134. Clarke's was 35, and 119 points. And Trottier could hit as good as he could score. Maybe Messier is on par with him but not Clarke IMO.
I'd take Trotts up there with any centre in history in his prime. Its funny how Bossys rep has grown by retiring early and Trotts has suffered. His bankruptcy inspired comeback didnt help.

somebody mentioned the hit on Gainey - it was a pure cheap shot and he got a well deserved 5 minute penalty. Anyone remember the big hit on a Rockie (Spruce?) where he flew into the boards and crunched the player separating his shoulder?

I didnt see a lot of Islander games except in eth playoffs but I thought Potvin and Trottier were the best players followed by Bossy, Sutter and Smith. But again Bossy has a sterling rep post retirement. I basically thought of him as the Shutt of NYI.

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07-19-2005, 08:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by chooch
I'd take Trotts up there with any centre in history in his prime. Its funny how Bossys rep has grown by retiring early and Trotts has suffered. His bankruptcy inspired comeback didnt help.
If Bossy didn't have to retire early he'd likely have finished with 800+ goals.

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07-19-2005, 08:06 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If Bossy didn't have to retire early he'd likely have finished with 800+ goals.
Youre extrapolating a direct line; what if he tailed off like 99 did?

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07-19-2005, 08:19 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by chooch
Youre extrapolating a direct line; what if he tailed off like 99 did?
Highly doubtful, Bossy was more of a pure goal scorer, while Gretzky was always a playmaker first.

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07-19-2005, 08:27 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
lol; what happened in 86? playing in a weak run and gun conference (remember those series against the BlackHawks and Murray Bananaman, where 99 and the Oielrs would rack up 44 goals in 5 games?) they're tied in the 3rd period of a 7th game against a team who woudl lose in 5 game in the finals.

Guy Lafleur never let the Habs down in their great years especially in the 7th game against the Bruins. No Miracle on Manchesters there.

btw 99 wanted to go to a richer team to boost his salary. he didnt get "sold" by big bad peter. Thats another 99 myth.
Then you have a very selective memory my friend. On the eve of a quarterfinal playoff series in 1982 a Mr. Richard Sevigny told anyone who asked that Guy Lafelur would "put Wayne Gretzky in his pocket before the series is over."

The results?

Guy Lafleur: 1 assist and a penalty in 3 quick games.
Wayne Gretzky: 7 goals, 14 assists in 9 games.

Gretz dominated the Habs in that series, (and I lost a bit of money because of it). And 80-81 was still a great Habs year, they were 3rd in the league with 103 pts, (Edmonton had 74) and had outscored the Oilers 332 -328 in the regular season despite playing in a stronger division.

And Gretzky was sold. Period. It wasn't Wayne who needed the money it was Pocklington.

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07-19-2005, 08:58 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
I'd take Trotts up there with any centre in history in his prime. Its funny how Bossys rep has grown by retiring early and Trotts has suffered. His bankruptcy inspired comeback didnt help.

somebody mentioned the hit on Gainey - it was a pure cheap shot and he got a well deserved 5 minute penalty. Anyone remember the big hit on a Rockie (Spruce?) where he flew into the boards and crunched the player separating his shoulder?

I didnt see a lot of Islander games except in eth playoffs but I thought Potvin and Trottier were the best players followed by Bossy, Sutter and Smith. But again Bossy has a sterling rep post retirement. I basically thought of him as the Shutt of NYI.
The Shutt of the NYI?

Don't insult Bossy like that. Shutt was a good player but he was nowhere close to Bossy.

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07-19-2005, 08:59 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by chooch
Youre extrapolating a direct line; what if he tailed off like 99 did?
Your posts can only be explained by excessive mushroom use.

Tailed off?

The guy CHOSE to be a playmaker rather than score goals. He could have been the best at either, he preferred to be a playmaker.

You call a 41 goal 122 assist season tailing off?


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 07-19-2005 at 09:15 PM.
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Old
07-19-2005, 10:18 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
I didnt see a lot of Islander games except in eth playoffs but I thought Potvin and Trottier were the best players followed by Bossy, Sutter and Smith. But again Bossy has a sterling rep post retirement. I basically thought of him as the Shutt of NYI.
I am not trying to be a jerk.....but I am wondering if you saw Bossy at all. He is probably the best goal scoring winger I have ever seen......and its rarely a shot at a player when you compare him to Shutt, but in this case it is

as for who should be on this list......Trottier/Clarke/Messier were all stud complete players......but for my money its Orr

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08-01-2005, 07:19 PM
  #49
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peter forsberg or possibly lindros in his prime

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