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03-22-2011, 01:43 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, the first foot was not fully healed... and he came back early on it. Then he came back early on the 2nd one, and was well below conditioning level.

There's a big difference between "healed enough" and "healed".
He was healed enough to lace up some skates.

Bottom line, if Jeff Carter does not show up they will not win.

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03-22-2011, 01:45 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
He was healed enough to lace up some skates.

Bottom line, if Jeff Carter does not show up they will not win.
As I've told you before, your criticism of Jeff Carter would actually have merit if it wasn't based in irrational statements and simple "hating." To not acknowledge that he was playing with significant injuries, which most surely affected his game is simply dumb.

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03-22-2011, 01:54 PM
  #78
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As I've told you before, your criticism of Jeff Carter would actually have merit if it wasn't based in irrational statements and simple "hating." To not acknowledge that he was playing with significant injuries, which most surely affected his game is simply dumb.
There is no hate involved, nor bias. This is not a character assassination, it is a critique on his play when it comes time to the playoffs and the need for him to take the next step.

Most guys are injured or have some issue or another at the end of the season, so I think it is a cop-out for folks to give him a pass last season considering his failure goes back 41 games and only 19pts. Either he takes the next step and develops a playoff game, or this is something that will continue to hang over his head.

Again, Gagne was injured with a broken foot, came back early, and still came up big.

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03-22-2011, 02:00 PM
  #79
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Most guys are injured or gimpy in some way, but most guys don't have broken feet.

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03-22-2011, 02:06 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Stop with the busted ankle and played through injury, he has not shown up in the playoffs, this is his time to prove he can play in that type of atmosphere:

41 games, 12 goals, 7 assists, 19pts, and a -11. Not exactly the most impressive stats. At this level it is not about how you can outplay the other players with your skills, it is about who wants it more, who has the heart to take their game to the next level.

And of course this, if he only had a one-time shot or get it up high there might have been a game 7!!!!


Watching this hurts.

Bad.

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03-22-2011, 02:08 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
There is no hate involved, nor bias. This is not a character assassination, it is a critique on his play when it comes time to the playoffs and the need for him to take the next step.

Most guys are injured or have some issue or another at the end of the season, so I think it is a cop-out for folks to give him a pass last season considering his failure goes back 41 games and only 19pts. Either he takes the next step and develops a playoff game, or this is something that will continue to hang over his head.

Again, Gagne was injured with a broken foot, came back early, and still came up big.
Gagne had 12 points in 19 games = 0.63 PPG
Carter had 7 points in 12 games = 0.58 PPG

Gagne also had a broken toe... Carter had a broken bones in both feet that required surgery.

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03-22-2011, 02:08 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Watching this hurts.

Bad.
Sorry man, maybe this year it is Carters turn and Bobrovsky to steal the show in net?

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03-22-2011, 02:11 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Sorry man, maybe this year it is Carters turn and Bobrovsky to steal the show in net?
My friend from your lips to God's ears.

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03-22-2011, 02:24 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The best season of Kerr's career came when he was 25.

Propp's best two years were 25-26, and after the age of 27 his production plummeted.

Barber: best season of his career came when he was 23.

Lindros... too easy.

Leclair: Great 25-29, fell off completely after 30.

Clarke: Best seasons of his career were 23, 25, and 26... and 26 was the final year he broke 100 pts.
Brian Propp: He hits 90 point in 81-82 he is in his third year and is 23 (same as Giroux). He follows that up with 82, 92, 96, 97, 97 67 in 53 games. So from 23-29 he is outstanding. Giroux is 14th in scoring at 23, good chance he makes it into the top 5 within the next 5 years.

Clarke: Hits 104 points in his fourth year and is 24. He follows that up with 87,116, 119, 90, 89. So from 24-29 he is in his prime.

Giroux is now entering his prime. Will he crack 100? Only the top 2-3 players in the league do that these days, but will he be a top 10 scorer in the NHL for the next 5-7 years. I think so. Look at a good setup guy with a lot of skill - Henrik Sedin. He only cracked 70 points at 26. Then he went 81, 76, 82, 112, 100 this year?

So don't act like age 26 is the tipping point for players - cause your ******* wrong. There are plenty of guys in their 30's at or near the top of the NHL in scoring (Iginla, St. Louis, Sedin, Sedin, Selanne, Brad Richards, etc).

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Old
03-22-2011, 02:26 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Brian Propp: He hits 90 point in 81-82 he is in his third year and is 23 (same as Giroux). He follows that up with 82, 92, 96, 97, 97 67 in 53 games. So from 23-29 he is outstanding. Giroux is 14th in scoring at 23, good chance he makes it into the top 5 within the next 5 years.

Clarke: Hits 104 points in his fourth year and is 24. He follows that up with 87,116, 119, 90, 89. So from 24-29 he is in his prime.

Giroux is now entering his prime. Will he crack 100? Only the top 2-3 players in the league do that these days, but will he be a top 10 scorer in the NHL for the next 5-7 years. I think so. Look at a good setup guy with a lot of skill - Henrik Sedin. He only cracked 70 points at 26. Then he went 81, 76, 82, 112, 100 this year?

So don't act like age 26 is the tipping point for players - cause your ******* wrong. There are plenty of guys in their 30's at or near the top of the NHL in scoring (Iginla, St. Louis, Sedin, Sedin, Selanne, Brad Richards, etc).
No, I'm not. Just because you failed 4th grade level math, doesn't make me wrong.

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03-22-2011, 02:50 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, I'm not. Just because you failed 4th grade level math, doesn't make me wrong.
30,21,30,35,25,25,30,22,23,33,29,30,40. In statistics we would do something like this:

21,22,23,25,25,29,30,30,30,33,35,40 to put them in order.

The mean of the top scorers in the NHL=29
The median of the top scorers in the NHL=30
The mode of the top scorers would be=30

Regardless of the formula, in the current day NHL, the average age of the top players is 29-30. There are young guys (Stamkos), 4-7 year players (Ovechkin, Toews, Perry) 30 year olds (Sedin, Sedin, Richards, Sharp, Zetterberg) and older players (Iginla, St. Louis, Selanne).

You are so predictable. As soon as logic fails, out come the personal insults. Grade 4 math. Why, because I put the age as the year they were born and the final year of the season (IE. Born in 1977 season=2010-2011 I put you as 34).

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03-22-2011, 03:09 PM
  #87
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Phillyfanatic, do you think I woke up one day and thought to myself, "you know what random thing I'm going to make an argument about? The age when players tend to produce in the NHL!" I've read about it, looked at a lot of stats (for a lot of different players of varying levels). For example, do you think the stats about the Art Ross were some random discovery? No, I've read 'em before in various outlets of people looking into when players produce the most offense during their career.

Top 10 in scoring right now: 30, 20, 30, 35, 25, 25, 30, 22, 23, 33.

Average 27.3 y/o (with a notable player absent who would push a 33 y/o player off the list)

Top 10 in scoring last year: 29, 22, 24, 22, 19, 34, 29, 30, 21, 27

Average 25.7 y/o

We could go on... it's consistently young.

Two things are clear:

1) You don't really understand how statistical arguments work. For example, find an example of a player that is beyond the confines of a statistical argument doesn't break the argument. There are things like "outliers" and "margin of error" for a reason.

2) You don't actually understand the argument that was made concerning Giroux and entering his prime. It isn't that Giroux is going to have a good year this year and suck...

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03-22-2011, 03:10 PM
  #88
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03-22-2011, 03:28 PM
  #89
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My bad..I thought this thread was about Carter

Anyway..on that note I'm requesting a moratorium be placed on any debate regarding Carter until the playoffs....

As far as this age debate with reaching scoring prime etc...well I'm making no such similar request but

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03-22-2011, 03:32 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
There are things like "outliers" and "margin of error" for a reason.
Not in the world of high finance...no such thing as bubbles....housing never goes down and markets are efficient....they operate on cruise control and via the "invisible hand." Screw black swan events...no such thing!

~Signed Alan "Mr Bubble" Greenspan

oops sorry for my tangent...wrong forum

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03-22-2011, 03:35 PM
  #91
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Not in the world of high finance...no such thing as bubbles....housing never goes down and markets are efficient....they operate on cruise control and via the "invisible hand." Screw black swan events...no such thing!

~Signed Alan "Mr Bubble" Greenspan

oops sorry for my tangent...wrong forum
Not sure it's fair to black swan events to say the housing bubble was one... more than a few folks were getting uppity about that stuff. What's fascinating about Greenspan is how purely theoretical his argument was... completely devoid of individual motivations that would be outside the bounds of his argument and F it up for everyone else.

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03-22-2011, 03:37 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
My bad..I thought this thread was about Carter

Anyway..on that note I'm requesting a moratorium be placed on any debate regarding Carter until the playoffs....

As far as this age debate with reaching scoring prime etc...well I'm making no such similar request but

The thing that bothers me is that we're all fans of the same team. We're not enemies. The fact that we argue, insult, and ridicule each other is terrible.

If we were all watching the Flyers in the playoffs at some bar, we'd be high-fiving and buying each other rounds(at least I would).

If the fans on the other boards watched this one, they would think Flyers fans eat their young.

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03-22-2011, 03:37 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not sure it's fair to black swan events to say the housing bubble was one... more than a few folks were getting uppity about that stuff. What's fascinating about Greenspan is how purely theoretical his argument was... completely devoid of individual motivations that would be outside the bounds of his argument and F it up for everyone else.
No the housing bubble wasn't but the fact that Greenspan totally discounted Risk management 101 with respect to his Greenspan put was def ideologically insane..guy should be in jail or worse...but again wrong forum.

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03-22-2011, 03:38 PM
  #94
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Nothing like a good Cartsise thread to get pumped for a big game against the Caps.

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03-22-2011, 03:38 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
There is no hate involved, nor bias. This is not a character assassination, it is a critique on his play when it comes time to the playoffs and the need for him to take the next step.

Most guys are injured or have some issue or another at the end of the season, so I think it is a cop-out for folks to give him a pass last season considering his failure goes back 41 games and only 19pts. Either he takes the next step and develops a playoff game, or this is something that will continue to hang over his head.

Again, Gagne was injured with a broken foot, came back early, and still came up big.
Gagne = broken toe
Carter = broken bones in both feet


You have no basis to your argument and have a blind hatred towards Carter. Just simmer down and let the grownups argue this one.

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03-22-2011, 03:42 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Phillyfanatic, do you think I woke up one day and thought to myself, "you know what random thing I'm going to make an argument about? The age when players tend to produce in the NHL!" I've read about it, looked at a lot of stats (for a lot of different players of varying levels). For example, do you think the stats about the Art Ross were some random discovery? No, I've read 'em before in various outlets of people looking into when players produce the most offense during their career.

Top 10 in scoring right now: 30, 20, 30, 35, 25, 25, 30, 22, 23, 33.

Average 27.3 y/o (with a notable player absent who would push a 33 y/o player off the list)

Top 10 in scoring last year: 29, 22, 24, 22, 19, 34, 29, 30, 21, 27

Average 25.7 y/o

We could go on... it's consistently young.

Two things are clear:

1) You don't really understand how statistical arguments work. For example, find an example of a player that is beyond the confines of a statistical argument doesn't break the argument. There are things like "outliers" and "margin of error" for a reason.

2) You don't actually understand the argument that was made concerning Giroux and entering his prime. It isn't that Giroux is going to have a good year this year and suck...
The average age "today" is 29/30. There is no argument. WHen you are looking historically or at alltime statistics, you would be looking at flawed data.

Off topic example. if you look at a player like Giroux at position 12 in the NHL compared to 1980, it will look like Giroux is having a terrible year......we know that there were many more goals scored then, so we can't compare Giroux goals and assists compared to the a top 10 player in the 1980's - so all time statistics become a problem.

Back to our example, you are saying that based on the average age of all time players winning the art ross, the average age is about 25 or 26. I am saying, with the advent of physical fitness, diet, the changes in rules in the game (no more sticks to the back, hips, etc) - players prime is extended well past the statistical norm of 26and players can stay into their prime into their 30's. By using this argument you have to look only at top scorers in a comparable NHL.

In my opinion, players at age 29 in the NHL today are still in their prime. You look at the top scorers in the NHL and you see names like Sedin, Sedin, Richards, Sharp and so on that prove it. Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin are generational talents. So as they get older, the average age of the top scorers will increase because they will remain in hte top 10. However, new talent will emerge that will replace Stamkos and Toews in the top 10, etc. And as new talent comes into the top 10 existing talent will be at age 30 and still in their prime. Still, the average age will likely be at or around 29.

Do you at least understand what I am saying here?

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03-22-2011, 03:43 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
The thing that bothers me is that we're all fans of the same team. We're not enemies. The fact that we argue, insult, and ridicule each other is terrible.

If we were all watching the Flyers in the playoffs at some bar, we'd be high-fiving and buying each other rounds(at least I would).

If the fans on the other boards watched this one, they would think Flyers fans eat their young.
I'll buy your first round. And I do not eat my young, but I would eat Jeff Carter's young if he does not win a Cup this season.

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03-22-2011, 03:45 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I'll buy your first round. And I do not eat my young, but I would eat Jeff Carter's young if he does not win a Cup this season.

So much innuendo, so little time.

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03-22-2011, 03:47 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Gagne = broken toe
Carter = broken bones in both feet


You have no basis to your argument and have a blind hatred towards Carter. Just simmer down and let the grownups argue this one.
Yes, of course, because there are no grounds for criticism of Carter being a soft player who has yet to show up in 41 games over the span of his career at the big boy level, not juniors.

Win the Cup and it changes everything. And stop with the injuries, it is like a bunch of crybabies who want to protect their favorite athlete. Guys play injured, it does not stop them from playing at a higher level come the playoffs.

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03-22-2011, 03:48 PM
  #100
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There is nothing wrong with criticizing our own players, when the criticisms have base.

It is fair to say Carter needs to be more creative at times, or use his size more or whatever. It's just that calling him out for only scoring 7 points in 12 games, with 2 broken feet is lunacy.

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