HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Cartsie Revisted

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-22-2011, 03:52 PM
  #101
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,146
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
The thing that bothers me is that we're all fans of the same team. We're not enemies. The fact that we argue, insult, and ridicule each other is terrible.

If we were all watching the Flyers in the playoffs at some bar, we'd be high-fiving and buying each other rounds(at least I would).

If the fans on the other boards watched this one, they would think Flyers fans eat their young.
I don't think anybody takes it that seriously as far as enemies...I sure don't. I do take offense when somebody questions my "fanhood" considering I've followed this team for over 20 years pretty much religiously. I think the people who get most worked up are just the ones that care the most. We all care as fans but to me what constitutes a fan is not much different than what constitutes a citizen. You have those that are more loyal and refrain from criticism and then you have a "loyal opposition" as they call it. It's necessary and healthy because debate requires balance not just marching in lockstep. The "hater" angle that some people trot out is more a gimmick to me and just a red herring for those that actually take it seriously and seize upon it ...

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 03:52 PM
  #102
ShotScore*
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Philadelphia,Pa.
Country: Italy
Posts: 926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I'll buy your first round. And I do not eat my young, but I would eat Jeff Carter's young if he does not win a Cup this season.
OK you're on. I got the second round and the shots. And if Carter leads us to the Cup this year, I'll buy the champagne for the parade.

ShotScore* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 03:52 PM
  #103
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
The average age "today" is 29/30. There is no argument. WHen you are looking historically or at alltime statistics, you would be looking at flawed data.
Actually, there is argument... the best goal scorer in the league right now is 20, and the two best players are 25 and younger.

And this "flawed data" argument is mind boggling.

Quote:
Off topic example. if you look at a player like Giroux at position 12 in the NHL compared to 1980, it will look like Giroux is having a terrible year......we know that there were many more goals scored then, so we can't compare Giroux goals and assists compared to the a top 10 player in the 1980's - so all time statistics become a problem.
Except at no point has anyone compared Giroux's production to someone in the 1980s. We're comparing players in their own time to their own peers, as well as the production arc of their respective careers.

Quote:
Back to our example, you are saying that based on the average age of all time players winning the art ross, the average age is about 25 or 26. I am saying, with the advent of physical fitness, diet, the changes in rules in the game (no more sticks to the back, hips, etc) - players prime is extended well past the statistical norm of 26and players can stay into their prime into their 30's. By using this argument you have to look only at top scorers in a comparable NHL.
See, I think training is actually making it easier for younger kids to excel. The one thing younger players (almost by definition) have over older veterans is quickness and twitch muscles. What you most definitely lack without focused training is mature musculature, which modern training goes a long way towards helping. Then again, Patrick Kane isn't putting up points because of his musculature.

So, no, I don't think you're going to see much of a shift in the average ages in production.

Quote:
In my opinion, players at age 29 in the NHL today are still in their prime. You look at the top scorers in the NHL and you see names like Sedin, Sedin, Richards, Sharp and so on that prove it. Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin are generational talents. So as they get older, the average age of the top scorers will increase because they will remain in hte top 10. However, new talent will emerge that will replace Stamkos and Toews in the top 10, etc. And as new talent comes into the top 10 existing talent will be at age 30 and still in their prime. Still, the average age will likely be at or around 29.

Do you at least understand what I am saying here?
I understand what you're saying, it doesn't make it any less wrong. The NHL talent pool is a conveyor belt... it isn't static. You don't drop guys into the talent pool and they do their thing and then retire. They come in, progress to their top level, and then begin a slow decline towards the end of their career.

What are the peak years for guys? Offensively, their early to mid 20s. Other areas of their game (most notably defensively) tend to improve with experience... but offense has a short incubation in the NHL.

Crosby at 30 will not be the player he is today (when healthy), he will have regressed some. Now, Crosby, unlike most other players, is regressing from an extremely high level... so his regression matters less than say someone who is a more middle of the road offensive talent.

Right now there is a slew of 12/13/14/15 y.o kids that are going to tear up the NHL... that's how it works, that's the cycle of production in the NHL.

Jester is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 03:53 PM
  #104
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
So much innuendo, so little time.
Yeah, I know. You have until tomorrow to play with it as you wish.

Cartsiephan* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 03:54 PM
  #105
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Yes, of course, because there are no grounds for criticism of Carter being a soft player who has yet to show up in 41 games over the span of his career at the big boy level, not juniors.

Win the Cup and it changes everything. And stop with the injuries, it is like a bunch of crybabies who want to protect their favorite athlete. Guys play injured, it does not stop them from playing at a higher level come the playoffs.
Man have you been a negative influence on the collective intelligence of this board.

Jester is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 03:54 PM
  #106
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,991
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Yeah, I know. You have until tomorrow to play with it as you wish.
Or until I have to moderate it

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
03-22-2011, 03:59 PM
  #107
ShotScore*
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Philadelphia,Pa.
Country: Italy
Posts: 926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I don't think anybody takes it that seriously as far as enemies...I sure don't. I do take offense when somebody questions my "fanhood" considering I've followed this team for over 20 years pretty much religiously. I think the people who get most worked up are just the ones that care the most. We all care as fans but to me what constitutes a fan is not much different than what constitutes a citizen. You have those that are more loyal and refrain from criticism and then you have a "loyal opposition" as they call it. It's necessary and healthy. The "hater" angle that some people trot out is more a gimmick to me and just a red herring for those that actually take it seriously and seize upon it ...

I see your point and agree. You can be a true fan, in every sense, and criticize the organization, management, etc. etc. and that's healthy and needed.

I just find it a little over the top when one fan of the same team says to another that he doesn't have the education to understand 4th grade math.

That's just a LITTLE insulting.

ShotScore* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 03:59 PM
  #108
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beef Runner
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 41,991
vCash: 500
Let's not let things get too heated guys, already had to close one thread.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:03 PM
  #109
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,146
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
I just find it a little over the top when one fan of the same team says to another that he doesn't have the education to understand 4th grade math.

That's just a LITTLE insulting.
Yeah...heated debate often devolves into ad hominem attacks....human nature I suppose but doesn't make it right. We are all guilty but maybe some more than others. I'm sure once the playoffs start the debate will really be heated b/c it's more a do or die situation and everybody is going to be anxious...should be fun!

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:08 PM
  #110
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Yeah, I know. You have until tomorrow to play with it as you wish.
You're just trying for the innuendo alley-oop aren't you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Yeah...heated debate often devolves into ad hominem attacks....human nature I suppose but doesn't make it right. We are all guilty but maybe some more than others. I'm sure once the playoffs start the debate will really be heated b/c it's more a do or die situation and everybody is going to be anxious...should be fun!
I think the biggest thing is just the anonymity that comes with being on a forum...especially amongst regular posters. People get to feeling like the resident BSD's and build up this reputation divorced from reality, and then feel like that gives them the right to condescend to everyone.

It's unfortunate that most discussions devolve into personal insults and declarations of fact in place of opinion, but that's the internet for you.

infidelappel* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:09 PM
  #111
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
So Jester, you think we are currently seeing an anomaly? How else do you explain that this is the first time in the history of the NHL that in back to back years the NHL's leading point getter is above age 30. It is completely possible that the top 3 point getters are going to be above age 30.

IMO - a players prime hockey years have changed. Players are reaching their prime at age 30, that was NEVER the case in any other era. EVER.

phillyfanatic is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:12 PM
  #112
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
So Jester, you think we are currently seeing an anomaly? How else do you explain that this is the first time in the history of the NHL that in back to back years the NHL's leading point getter is above age 30. It is completely possible that the top 3 point getters are going to be above age 30.

IMO - a players prime hockey years have changed. Players are reaching their prime at age 30, that was NEVER the case in any other era. EVER.
Simple answer:

Twins


honestly, I think the way it works is that the top superstar playrs peak earlier, but other normal players they peak later as they often spend time in the AHL, etc

HoverCarle* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:15 PM
  #113
ShotScore*
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Philadelphia,Pa.
Country: Italy
Posts: 926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Yeah...heated debate often devolves into ad hominem attacks....human nature I suppose but doesn't make it right. We are all guilty but maybe some more than others. I'm sure once the playoffs start the debate will really be heated b/c it's more a do or die situation and everybody is going to be anxious...should be fun!
Well, just to let you know, if the playoffs go south for us, you can expect some heated criticism coming from me going Holmgren's way.

Just letting you know now.

ShotScore* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:16 PM
  #114
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
You're just trying for the innuendo alley-oop aren't you?




I think the biggest thing is just the anonymity that comes with being on a forum...especially amongst regular posters. People get to feeling like the resident BSD's and build up this reputation divorced from reality, and then feel like that gives them the right to condescend to everyone.

It's unfortunate that most discussions devolve into personal insults and declarations of fact in place of opinion, but that's the internet for you.
Bottom line is it is a forum with personal opinions, nothing more nothing less. The common theme is each person has a vested interest in the outcome. If people take what is said in attack or counterattack mode maybe they take the idea of a forum too seriously.

I like the fact that people really think I have a hatred for Carter or some disdain for the organization which makes me not a "true" fan. I have an opinion, no more or no less, sometimes right, a lot of times wrong, but it is still my humble opinion.

Cartsiephan* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:17 PM
  #115
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
So Jester, you think we are currently seeing an anomaly? How else do you explain that this is the first time in the history of the NHL that in back to back years the NHL's leading point getter is above age 30. It is completely possible that the top 3 point getters are going to be above age 30.
1) Sedin was 29 last year. He turned 30 just last September... you know, just before this year began.

2) So, based on simple deduction, we would not be looking at back-to-back years of 30+ y/o players leading th league in points.

3) Mario Lemieux led the league in back-to-back years when he was 30/31, so it has been done before, at that.

4) Sidney Crosby would be lapping the field in scoring this year if he had not gotten hurt... he's still 14th in scoring despite only playing 41 games, and his PPG was a full third of a point higher than Daniel Sedin's.

Quote:
IMO - a players prime hockey years have changed. Players are reaching their prime at age 30, that was NEVER the case in any other era. EVER.
Well, your opinion is wrong as there is no evidence to back it up. The Sedin twins peaking a bit later isn't indicative of a movement within the entire population of hockey players.

Jester is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:18 PM
  #116
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
So Jester, you think we are currently seeing an anomaly? How else do you explain that this is the first time in the history of the NHL that in back to back years the NHL's leading point getter is above age 30. It is completely possible that the top 3 point getters are going to be above age 30.

IMO - a players prime hockey years have changed. Players are reaching their prime at age 30, that was NEVER the case in any other era. EVER.
I'll go so far as Carter will not reach 40 goals again, and he will not reach 500 unless he plays up until the age of 37.

Cartsiephan* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:20 PM
  #117
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,146
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Well, just to let you know, if the playoffs go south for us, you can expect some heated criticism coming from me going Holmgren's way.

Just letting you know now.
You won't be alone

But in all fairness it will depend upon how we get ousted...if we get ousted. If for some reason the goaltending becomes the achilles heel where neither Bob or Boosh can shutdown games when the D, which Holmgren stacked, is not up to par then the GM will deserve some criticism since his strategy (stacking the D and going with a career backup and rookie) will have for all intents and purposes not worked out. The GM is frankly lucky Bob has done as well as he has for a rookie b/c the Leighton signing was completely ill-advised and this was before we found out he tried to cover his "back" by not disclosing his injury....

No matter what I still think them going far is going to come down to shutdown goaltending and the special teams b/c 5 on 5 play is going to be tight..as we are seeing.

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:21 PM
  #118
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Simple answer:

Twins


honestly, I think the way it works is that the top superstar playrs peak earlier, but other normal players they peak later as they often spend time in the AHL, etc
Depends what you mean by peaking... if you aren't in the NHL by 22/23, then the chances are you're not going to be much of anything in the NHL.

Take Hartnell, for example, who in normal circumstances probably should have spent a bit more time developing before plunging into the NHL. He's been pretty consistent about posting numbers in the .5-.6 PPG range for some time now.

Jester is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:27 PM
  #119
ShotScore*
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Philadelphia,Pa.
Country: Italy
Posts: 926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
You won't be alone

But in all fairness it will depend upon how we get ousted...if we get ousted. If for some reason the goaltending becomes the achilles heel where neither Bob or Boosh can shutdown games when the D, which Holmgren stacked, is not up to par then the GM will deserve some criticism since his strategy (stacking the D and going with a career backup and rookie) will have for all intents and purposes not worked out. The GM is frankly lucky Bob has done as well as he has for a rookie b/c the Leighton signing was completely ill-advised and this was before we found out he tried to cover his "back" by not disclosing his injury....

No matter what I still think them going far is going to come down to shutdown goaltending and the special teams b/c 5 on 5 play is going to be tight..as we are seeing.

Absolutely agree with this.

ShotScore* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:28 PM
  #120
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
29/30 is the average age I stated in my original point. Currently, the average age of the top players in the NHL, regardless of the statistical method you use (Mean, Mode, Median) is 29/30. So, the Sedins are there with Brad Richards, Zetterburg and others at age 30 and having career years. The Sedins also broke into the league too early and struggled, and yet, they are now in their prime at age 30.

I will not be surprised if Girouxs best years happen betweens the ages of 26-31. Those are prime years in todays NHL.

phillyfanatic is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:29 PM
  #121
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Depends what you mean by peaking... if you aren't in the NHL by 22/23, then the chances are you're not going to be much of anything in the NHL.

Take Hartnell, for example, who in normal circumstances probably should have spent a bit more time developing before plunging into the NHL. He's been pretty consistent about posting numbers in the .5-.6 PPG range for some time now.
yeah I mean that they make it at say like 22/23 take a couple of seasons to learn the rookie ropes, and prime at say like 26-29

HoverCarle* is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:30 PM
  #122
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
29/30 is the average age I stated in my original point. Currently, the average age of the top players in the NHL, regardless of the statistical method you use (Mean, Mode, Median) is 29/30. So, the Sedins are there with Brad Richards, Zetterburg and others at age 30 and having career years. The Sedins also broke into the league too early and struggled, and yet, they are now in their prime at age 30.

I will not be surprised if Girouxs best years happen betweens the ages of 26-31. Those are prime years in todays NHL.
Certainly explains why the league has gotten noticeably younger after the lockout.


Jester is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:33 PM
  #123
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
yeah I mean that they make it at say like 22/23 take a couple of seasons to learn the rookie ropes, and prime at say like 26-29
See, the thing is, if a guy isn't breaking into the NHL until he's 22/23 (outside of maybe a NCAA guy), you're probably talking about a role player as far as talent level (i.e. guys who are relied upon for defense/energy etc., which does improve a bit with experience).

I mean, remember the hysterics surrounding Spezza being in the AHL?

Jester is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:51 PM
  #124
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
BTW, here's a good link: http://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/20...0-goal-scorers

What the writer is breaking down is scoring over age in reference to the Kovy deal (and why it was a terrible idea).

Jester is offline  
Old
03-22-2011, 04:51 PM
  #125
phillyfanatic
Registered User
 
phillyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,631
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Certainly explains why the league has gotten noticeably younger after the lockout.

Why are players more than ever having career years past age 26? Answer=good diet, physical fitness, etc. A player aged 29 who has not had a signicant injury that has caused him to slowdown (back, knee, etc), should have the same ability to score at a high rate as he did when he was 25.

You are right about the league going younger, but that is salary cap/entry level contract related. Older players who have been given a chance leave the NHL for Russia and Sweden to make more money. However, the average of all players in the league has no bearing on when the top players are in/out of their prime.

Giroux at 23 < Giroux at 28. IMO.

phillyfanatic is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:01 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.