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Old
03-23-2011, 06:45 PM
  #51
nyr2k2
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Originally Posted by NYSportsfan6230 View Post
While that is very possible, the one thing that confuses me is why he dropped to the second round. If he can snipe with some of these other guys he should have easily been a top 10 pick. Is it his size? I really have no idea, all I know is he is having a very good year in the OHL and he is a goal scorer.
Yep, it was his size.

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03-23-2011, 06:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Everyone is so down on Grachev and yet he will most likely end the season with around the same amount of points as Dubinsky did at the same age in the same league. Odd.
It's the whole them being a hyped prospect and not making it to the NHL soon enough to please the masses thing.

I don't care if it takes him another two years, Grachev is not the type of player within your organization you give up on. I don't care who passes him on what list. He's a guy that you hold onto and wait until he figures it out, cause when he does, it could be special.

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03-23-2011, 06:50 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
He was actually ranked all the way down at #66 by CIS. To contrast, Andrew Yogan was ranked 60th.

Its the size, man. It does matter. Take the kid the Kings drafted with the Boyle pick, for example.
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Yep, it was his size.
Ok, thanks fellas I figured that was the case.

If that's the case then hopefully chock up another steal for Uncle Glennie hopefully.

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Old
03-23-2011, 06:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Everyone is so down on Grachev and yet he will most likely end the season with around the same amount of points as Dubinsky did at the same age in the same league. Odd.
Well, what do you know - a comparison like this from a year ago would be taken as a big negative.

I am still high on Grachev and glad that "not a troll" in Leslie (great article, btw) is of the same opinion at least for now.

And for all those who are ready to dismiss Grachev, what would you say to Boyle comparison - Grachev has the same size already, better skating and better shot. He does need to develop but that's why he is a PROJECT.

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Old
03-23-2011, 07:31 PM
  #55
Leslie Treff
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Thanks for the complimentary words, guys.

I believe that giving up on Grachev at this point would be premature. There has been progress and he still is a very good prospect.

Separately, because they would be comparing apples to oranges, its my opinion that Zuccarello needs to get stronger or he will not be able to perform as a first to second line NHL player in the long-term. He is very talented, and I know that this is a controversial position, but I have to call them the way I see them.

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03-23-2011, 07:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Loto68 View Post
Part of his relatively low scoring is related to Ice Time, He's not playing on BC's first line. Jerry York is known for giving ice time to his older players, as evidenced by the fact that all the top scorers on BC are older players, except for the top scoring defenseman who is a freshman. Additionally he has played a pretty solid two-way game. I go to school in Boston and I've seen him play a few times, including when he beat my Huskies in the Bean Pot final. I was so torn between watching my team lose and rooting for Kreider. I truly hated him that night.
Yeah I just hope that isn't us making excuses for him. That's what worries me...that people are overlooking some faults of his and blaming York for not playing him enough or something.

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03-23-2011, 07:34 PM
  #57
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I think he needs to improve his shot, skating, and play in his own zone as well; or at least one of the three.

Otherwise he'll be surpassed by kids in our system sooner or later. As a small, one dimensional player he will have to produce, or hes gone.

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03-23-2011, 07:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Zucc behind Thomas AND Grachev is odd. Zucc have more potential then both, and is already in the NHL scoring as much is possible for a kid getting his ice time (he have Gabby and Cally infront of him, and still on some nights have even been the one guy Torts have put out there). Odd.

And how can Thomas have more potential then Zucc? Pts? Nope.

And how can Grachev have more potential then Zucc? Grachev can become a very solid player, if put in a role were he can play to his strength. He will never become a offensive goto player. Never.

Good list and great write-ups. But the above is hard to motivate. And you often see it. Like most prospects never even get a look. Then one makes it to the NHL, and from the first sec drops like a bunch of spots for some reason (girardi is a good example too).

What do you mean, "How can he have more potential than Zucc?" like it's not possible or something.

Thomas is a small guy that plays the game like he thinks he's 6'0 190, he doesn't shy away from contact, he's not easily muscled off the puck, doesn't hesitate to work along the boards, or crash at the net. Thomas has a rediculous shot and uses it whenever possible.

So I don't understand how it's wrong to say that Thomas has more 'potential' than Zucc.

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Old
03-23-2011, 07:45 PM
  #59
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I think Zuccarello is definitely rated fairly.

Could I see him putting up a few 40-60 point seasons with 10-15 goals? Sure, his passing/playmaking ability in the offensive zone is exceptional.

But IMO there are 3 areas that he must improve on to really be a viable long term 2nd line option.

1. His shot; even taking into account that he came from a "pass-first" league/environment, when he does let one go it is simply not good enough.
2. Skating; it is certainly good, but if you are 5-9 it needs to be great.
3. Decision making with the puck in the D & neutral zone. He is prone to giveaways in these areas, at times acting very careless. This needs to be addressed.

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Old
03-23-2011, 08:16 PM
  #60
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Zucc has the heart of a lion. He tries to throw the body all the time & bounces right off guys & ends up on his but.

He needs a lot more strength & better form in checking IMO.

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Old
03-23-2011, 08:59 PM
  #61
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Great write up leslie. I completely agree with Thomas being #3. Only one I could see being a bit higher is Hagelin. But other wise very spot on.

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Old
03-23-2011, 09:04 PM
  #62
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Im in the minority maybe and thats ok, but i still don't quite get the C. Kreider fasination.. Less than a point a game in a very average league such as Hockey East? I guess im just not sold yet.. Hope i'm wrong.

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03-23-2011, 09:42 PM
  #63
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Very nice write-up, Leslie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EsposHounds View Post
Im in the minority maybe and thats ok, but i still don't quite get the C. Kreider fasination.. Less than a point a game in a very average league such as Hockey East? I guess im just not sold yet.. Hope i'm wrong.
A kid that is 6'3 215lbs with those kind of wheels and a NHL-level shot makes for a very exciting package. It's not all about the numbers, it's about the development curve. Kreider went from NE-Prep hockey, to the NCAA, WJC U-20, to being selected for the Men's WC team all in less than a year. That's pretty astonishing considering just how raw he is.

If he can put all of the tools together, the sky is the limit. Rarely do you see that kind of combination of not only physical skills, but intelligence as well.

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Old
03-23-2011, 10:00 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Wolskii View Post
Great write up leslie. I completely agree with Thomas being #3. Only one I could see being a bit higher is Hagelin. But other wise very spot on.
That sums up how I felt.

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03-23-2011, 10:10 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by EsposHounds View Post
Im in the minority maybe and thats ok, but i still don't quite get the C. Kreider fasination.. Less than a point a game in a very average league such as Hockey East? I guess im just not sold yet.. Hope i'm wrong.
With what we've seen transpire with some of our own young players and prospects post lockout, I guess the lesson learned is that early impressions aren't everything, especially in terms of being indicative for future ceiling or level of play. Either Sam or Joe commented last night that some young players only play their best hockey when challenged at the highest level... Not saying that's certain to be the case for any of our prospects but it's definitely valid for some players... Mike Green has scored more points in the NHL in a single season than he ever had scored in the CHL in any given season.... I always found that impressive.

I knew going into this season that McDonagh was a well regarded NCAA defenseman, but after seeing him in pre-season I felt pretty underwhelmed with what I saw and figured he had some work to do to improve before he could be an NHL regular... Based on my early impressions, I never would I have guessed he would be an mid-season call up and blend in seamlessly and carry himself like a seasoned vet. Works the same way with regards to Grachev though... I was really pumped up after following him his junior season with Brampton and now I feel let down at how things have gone since.... .

I just try to maintain a cautious optimism about some of these prospects and being optimistic (to a degree) and following them on their respective teams through the system and rooting for them, I think it's pretty enjoyable... Much more fun then erring on the side of negativity and assuming a prospect will likely bust.


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Old
03-23-2011, 10:14 PM
  #66
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Thanks, Leslie. Great work - and good to see you active on the board recently.

As for the rankings, I agree for the most part. Thought Horak was low, Bourque and Johnson a little high. Liked the Thomas ranking - he has put up historic numbers and although he's small, there's a solidness to him I don't see in Bourque or MZA. I still believe in Grachev's upside, but understand the ranking given the dropoff he experienced during his first season & a half in the A.

I also share the doubt expressed by you & others in MZA's long term future - he is so small that his vision and passing are neutralized in close quarters and, through no lack of effort, he can be a liability in his own zone. He is very talented, but this is a case where I think the smaller ice surface DOES make a difference. If he chooses to stay in the NHL, I think the earlier prediction of a ceiling around 15 goals and 50 points in his best year sounds right. I just wonder if he doesn't eventually go back to a league with larger ice where he can be a premier scoring star.

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Old
03-23-2011, 11:57 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
Thanks for the complimentary words, guys.

I believe that giving up on Grachev at this point would be premature. There has been progress and he still is a very good prospect.

Separately, because they would be comparing apples to oranges, its my opinion that Zuccarello needs to get stronger or he will not be able to perform as a first to second line NHL player in the long-term. He is very talented, and I know that this is a controversial position, but I have to call them the way I see them.
I would only correct you to the point of saying that giving up on Grachev at this point would be EXTREMELY premature.

Progress has been slow but it's there. The guy has too much in the tool box to count him out at 21 yrs old.

I agree with you on Zuuc. He has to find ways to get more scoring chances for himself. That said, I think this is a guy that can do it. With all the adjustments he's had to make in very little time, I think he's done well. It's mainly the last few games where I've had any real concerns.

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Old
03-24-2011, 12:27 AM
  #68
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if Grachev becomes Feds with better hands....that'll be a good 3rd round pick

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Old
03-24-2011, 12:36 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EsposHounds View Post
Im in the minority maybe and thats ok, but i still don't quite get the C. Kreider fasination.. Less than a point a game in a very average league such as Hockey East? I guess im just not sold yet.. Hope i'm wrong.
He's the only prospect that the organization has that actually has elite level properties. People are going to get excited about that.

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03-24-2011, 05:31 AM
  #70
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Just adding my voice to the plaudits you're receiving, Leslie. The list is fairly close to how I see it....my quibbles are Bourque over Werek...(injury issues for Werek...are we forgetting Bourque's concussions?), Johnson being too high, and Horak being too low. I fully agree with McDonagh and Thomas being 2-3. Grachev still gets a higher ranking from me due to his proximity to the NHL. And, I would probably switch Valentenko and Kundratek, based upon reports that Kundratek has been the better all-around D-man for the Whale.

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03-24-2011, 05:35 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HockeyBurd View Post
He's the only prospect that the organization has that actually has elite level properties. People are going to get excited about that.
Could not have said it better myself...then again, aren't all 20-year-olds supposed to be finished products before even reaching the NHL?

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03-24-2011, 06:00 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
I would only correct you to the point of saying that giving up on Grachev at this point would be EXTREMELY premature.

Progress has been slow but it's there. The guy has too much in the tool box to count him out at 21 yrs old.

I agree with you on Zuuc. He has to find ways to get more scoring chances for himself. That said, I think this is a guy that can do it. With all the adjustments he's had to make in very little time, I think he's done well. It's mainly the last few games where I've had any real concerns.
Well, the whole Stepan line hasn't played much recently and you also have to remember that Euro rookies usually run out of gas at the end of the season. Used to playing 53 games + eventual playoffs is alot less than 82 games + eventual playoffs.

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03-24-2011, 06:10 AM
  #73
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Well, the whole Stepan line hasn't played much recently and you also have to remember that Euro rookies usually run out of gas at the end of the season. Used to playing 53 games + eventual playoffs is alot less than 82 games + eventual playoffs.
It pains me to see Stepan's ice time getting cut. If Christensen's little hot streak is over, then Torts might want to consider putting Stepan in his spot.

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03-24-2011, 06:43 AM
  #74
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It pains me to see Stepan's ice time getting cut. If Christensen's little hot streak is over, then Torts might want to consider putting Stepan in his spot.
I think Stepan might be running out of gas too...hopefully these guys can find some rest before the playoffs

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03-24-2011, 07:28 AM
  #75
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I think Stepan might be running out of gas too...hopefully these guys can find some rest before the playoffs
I don't know about that. I think it's more that Torts doesn't trust his linemates.

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