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Old
03-22-2011, 12:28 PM
  #26
crashman
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Why is everyone speculating that Datsyuk goes to Russia after his contract expires? Has he been quoted saying that was his plan?

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03-22-2011, 06:48 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by The Wingman View Post
Why is everyone speculating that Datsyuk goes to Russia after his contract expires? Has he been quoted saying that was his plan?
Dats was quoted saying he wants to return to Mother Russia in the "soviet press". (sorry I can't provide a link.) But this could be just Dats being PC with the press & as I believe he was running a youth camp at the time.

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03-22-2011, 07:05 PM
  #28
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I'd say in all likelyhood no, because the Wings don't have any young players top 6/ top 2 that will likely be in their primes then. Z, Dats, and Franzen will be at the end of their primes. Guys like Tatar, Mursak, Smith, Kindl, Pulu, Jarnkrok, etc will all still be a couple of years away. Helmer and Abs will be in their primes, but I don't think that'll make up for our top 6 guys being older.

With that said however there is a chance we could be better because of team concept/ dynamic. It most likely won't be a more skilled team but they could have a more two way/ tighter checking team that could still do well in the playoffs. I mean assuming Kindl, Stuart, Smith, and Kronwall are still on the team thats a pretty large physical group. That also doesn't take into account that the Wings will sign another dman with that 12 mil they get from Raffy and Lids. I could see them pursuing a guy like Ryan Suter really hard. I don't think Nash is going to be able to keep both Weber and Suter, and Weber is a FA first. I'm prefer Weber but I can't see Nash not matching any offer sheet.

When Lidstrom leaves the team dynamic is finally going to have to change somewhat, because there are maybe 2 dmen in the league that could potentially replace him and we have neither. I don't expect the next gen of Wings teams to be pure puck posession. I expect a build similar to the late 90s teams.
The wings system provides for greater synergy among the players, Wings more than most teams have played together for more years, in many different roles. Sure we have stars, but they were developed over years. What rookie since Stevie has come in and was that great? Why have we been less than .500 in shoot-outs over the past 2 years? Our scoring for the most part (except for the Dangler) involves group effort with passing & positioning not just individual efforts. This is the hope that future forwards can develop. No team could replace a 6x Norris, even with Web or Sut, though it would help. I think that I am more concerned about the leadership loss when lids leaves, & as you state, the team dynamic won't be the same, even with a Weber.

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03-23-2011, 04:03 PM
  #29
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Better? Impossible. IMO nobody is ever going to have a 4 year run like Detroit had from the 2006-7 season through 2010. Not Detroit, and not anybody else. A WCF loss, a Cup win, a Cup loss and a second round out is about as good as any team could ever hope to really do. Even the Pens would have to get to the ECFs this year to match Detroit's 4 year run... and I highly doubt that's happening.

I think the reasonable expectation for the team going forward is 105-110 points and getting to the second round at least 2 of 3 years... and I don't see any real reason a team run as well as Detroit has been which spends to the cap can't do that.

As far as the prospect talk goes... this is the same discussion that's always had every time the current roster is at or just passing their primes. Where are all the players in the system? What will we do? Oh noes!

Under a cap system you don't need to have your best players come up through the draft... and when you are picking late like Detroit always is it's next to impossible for that to happen anyway. As long as the team makes smart acquisitions via the UFA market they can more than adequately replace any short-term holes on the roster.

Now, if the Wings start signing bad contracts... bad things could happen. Also, if Z and Franzen actually play out their whole deals... bad things will happen.

Other than those two possibilities, there's really nothing to worry about as far as the long-term health of the organization goes.

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03-23-2011, 04:24 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Better? Impossible. IMO nobody is ever going to have a 4 year run like Detroit had from the 2006-7 season through 201\
I think that's pretty premature. The current Blackhawks team has the horses to be contenders for quite awhile.

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03-23-2011, 05:19 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think that's pretty premature. The current Blackhawks team has the horses to be contenders for quite awhile.
I think what really helped the Wings in their run was Zetterberg and Franzen's combined $3.5m cap hit (not to mention Samuelsson at $1.2 million). The 'Hawks have no one under contract close to bargains like that, plus they have the Campbell contract on their hands for another four seasons. They'll always be good but I don't think they'll have a run like the Wings'.

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03-23-2011, 05:26 PM
  #32
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The Campbell deal might be the single thing that keeps the Hawks from sustained elite status. With the Seabrook deal they'll have to purge again this summer. Losing Fugly, Ladd, etc. hurt them this season, and they'll probably have to deal Sharp and/or Bolland and/or Hjalmarsson. Campbell has a NTC and 5 years left on that deal - epic. Nobody will go near that contract.

Another sign of poor cap management - all the Hawks' prospects have NHL salaries in the $900k-$1.2m range (plus bonuses). That makes it much more difficult for them to use those players as replacements for jettisoned salary dump players. The Wings, on the other hand, have most of their prospects locked up at NHL salaries between $550k and $850k. That means the Hawks will probably have to use guys like Mark Rypien as depth players, and not their best prospects.

The only way I see them staying up is if Frolik somehow catches fire and becomes a 30-40 goal scorer next season and beyond. That's the one move they made that could really pay off and help them stay competitive under the cap.

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03-23-2011, 06:04 PM
  #33
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The Campbell contract is obviously the worst, but the Hawks have $43.7M tied up in 9 players next season and $36.4M tied up in 6 players for the next 4 years. Considering the caliber of those players, they are virtually guaranteed to be a good team for years, but will be just as challenged as a lot of teams to be a great team; different reasons, but same challenge, imo.

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03-23-2011, 07:19 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
The Campbell contract is obviously the worst, but the Hawks have $43.7M tied up in 9 players next season and $36.4M tied up in 6 players for the next 4 years. Considering the caliber of those players, they are virtually guaranteed to be a good team for years, but will be just as challenged as a lot of teams to be a great team; different reasons, but same challenge, imo.
The trick will be finding the Patrick Eaves and Danny Clearys and Samuelssons

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03-23-2011, 07:27 PM
  #35
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I think that's pretty premature. The current Blackhawks team has the horses to be contenders for quite awhile.
Now that's pretty premature.

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03-23-2011, 07:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Now that's pretty premature.
Saying a team has the horses to be contenders for awhile isn't premature.
Hawks. Sharks. Penguins. Three teams that could go on nice four-year runs. Maybe the caps.

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03-24-2011, 08:12 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Saying a team has the horses to be contenders for awhile isn't premature.
Sure it is, because you're changing the parameters of the debate. This isn't about being a 'contender', this is about putting up a stretch like Detroit had which is rather more. Win a Cup, lose a Cup, WCFs and Second round in 4 seasons. And that's not even counting Detroit's 442 regular season points in those 4 years, which will also be pretty tough to match. SJ may be able to if they have a decent finish to this year.

'Contender'? What does that even mean?

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Hawks. Sharks. Penguins. Three teams that could go on nice four-year runs. Maybe the caps.
Awesome. How much would you, yourself, bet on any of those teams equaling Detroit's success then?

I'm going to take a huuuuge guess and say you'd bet exactly nothing on it. Why? Because it is incredibly, incredibly unlikely to happen. IMO, it's not going to happen again, at least not until the cap rules are changed to make it more likely.

Pittsburgh would have to make it to the ECFs this year to do it. Chicago would have to make it to the Cup Finals to do it. San Jose would have to do all sorts of things to do it. Same with Washington.

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03-24-2011, 08:33 AM
  #38
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With the prospect pool we have at the moment, Detroit should still be contenders in 4 years, although they won't be the clear-cut best team in the league without some good free agent signings.

Having Draper\Holmstrom\Lidstrom\Rafalski\Bertuzzi\Modano come off the cap over the next 2-4 years equals almost 18.5 million. They also won't be paying 3 million for Flip and his blistering 35-40 points a season. That gives the Wings a lot of money to fill roster spots, and with (hopefully) cheap, good RFAs filling out a bit of the roster, they should still be able to contend.

With the promise they've shown, at least one of Nyquist, Tatar, Pulk, Jarnkrok should be a top-line talent, and I have no doubt that 3 of the 4 will be NHL players. Hell, Tatar already has an NHL goal.

With what Brendan Smith has done in the AHL this year I think it also goes beyond a doubt that he will be in the NHL within 2 years. And his PIM totals down there are speaking volumes for the kind of guy he will be.

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Old
03-24-2011, 08:36 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Sure it is, because you're changing the parameters of the debate. This isn't about being a 'contender', this is about putting up a stretch like Detroit had which is rather more. Win a Cup, lose a Cup, WCFs and Second round in 4 seasons. And that's not even counting Detroit's 442 regular season points in those 4 years, which will also be pretty tough to match. SJ may be able to if they have a decent finish to this year.

'Contender'? What does that even mean?



Awesome. How much would you, yourself, bet on any of those teams equaling Detroit's success then?

I'm going to take a huuuuge guess and say you'd bet exactly nothing on it. Why? Because it is incredibly, incredibly unlikely to happen. IMO, it's not going to happen again, at least not until the cap rules are changed to make it more likely.

Pittsburgh would have to make it to the ECFs this year to do it. Chicago would have to make it to the Cup Finals to do it. San Jose would have to do all sorts of things to do it. Same with Washington.
Realistically I think the Penguins probably had a shot at coming out the East this year again, with how good Crosby was playing, but with Malkin out now and no one really certain when Crosby will return, there chances are looking slimmer. If Crosby comes back though in time and someone upsets the Flyers I think Penguins still got a chance at coming out the East. I'd rather this scenario doesn't happen though so hopefully someone takes them out in the first couple of rounds.

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03-24-2011, 08:52 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Schroedingers Cat View Post
With the prospect pool we have at the moment, Detroit should still be contenders in 4 years, although they won't be the clear-cut best team in the league without some good free agent signings.
Do you think the Wings are the clear-cut best team in the league at the moment? I personally think that hasn't been the case since 2008.

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03-24-2011, 10:04 AM
  #41
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Do you think the Wings are the clear-cut best team in the league at the moment? I personally think that hasn't been the case since 2008.
Who was believed to be better than the Wings in '09 when we added Hossa?

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03-24-2011, 10:28 AM
  #42
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Who was believed to be better than the Wings in '09 when we added Hossa?
Well I saw the games with my own eyes and saw the Pens outplay us in the Finals so I'd guess they were better than us or at least no worse than us?

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03-24-2011, 10:32 AM
  #43
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Well I saw the games with my own eyes and saw the Pens outplay us in the Finals so I'd guess they were better than us or at least no worse than us?
Well, yeah. But how can you declare any team the 'best team' or say any team isn't the best team if you're just going to wait to see who wins the cup?

During the regular season in '09, the Wings were the clear cut best team. They obviously didn't win, but the best doesn't always win.

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03-24-2011, 10:39 AM
  #44
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They obviously didn't win, but the best doesn't always win.
In a seven game series, the best team wins most of the time.
But clearly, Datsyuk was playing hurt. Lidstrom was missing a nut. And Hossa had a bum shoulder.

Then again, the Wings were remarkably healthy in 2008,

Staying healthy might be the single greatest factor in playoff success.

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03-24-2011, 12:35 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
In a seven game series, the best team wins most of the time.
That should be a bumper sticker or something.

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Staying healthy might be the single greatest factor in playoff success.
Enh. If you're the Atlanta Thrashers it doesn't matter if you are 100% healthy. Staying healthy is the single greatest factor in playoff success for Detroit because the Wings are already good enough to win a Cup.

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03-24-2011, 12:42 PM
  #46
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Do you think the Wings are the clear-cut best team in the league at the moment? I personally think that hasn't been the case since 2008.
Why does that even matter?

So, if the Wings aren't the clear-cut best team in the league at a given moment... what? What happens? What does that mean?

Is that seriously the standard you use when looking at the Wings? If it's not, why bring it up? If it is, that's a fairly strict one, wouldn't you say?

It's a capped league. In a capped league you take the top 15-20% (or more) of the best teams and any one of them can win that years title based on all kinds of crazy contingencies.

Thanks to that cap the difference between losing in the first round and winning a Cup is next to nothing, really. Heck, look at last years Hawks. If they don't score a shorthanded goal with 14 freaking seconds left they're facing a 3-2 hole going to Nashville.

That's the NHL now, for better or worse.

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03-24-2011, 12:44 PM
  #47
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With what Brendan Smith has done in the AHL this year I think it also goes beyond a doubt that he will be in the NHL within 2 years. And his PIM totals down there are speaking volumes for the kind of guy he will be.
Yeah, a Sean Avery on defense. Can't wait.

That kid looks like a knucklehead.

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03-24-2011, 01:01 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Why does that even matter?

So, if the Wings aren't the clear-cut best team in the league at a given moment... what? What happens? What does that mean?

Is that seriously the standard you use when looking at the Wings? If it's not, why bring it up? If it is, that's a fairly strict one, wouldn't you say?
I didn't bring it up, SC brought it up. I was wondering if he thought we're that at this point because I personally didn't think it was the case.

To be quite frank, I think we're on the downward slope of the mountain and the point of this thread was to see what people's ideas were to counter this trend.

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Old
03-24-2011, 01:16 PM
  #49
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Yeah, a Sean Avery on defense. Can't wait.

That kid looks like a knucklehead.
Ehhh, what? What makes him a Sean Avery on defense? Granted, I've only seen one of his games with the Griffins, but in all the Badgers games I saw, he was nothing like Sean Avery. He's had some knucklehead moments off the ice, but I don't think he's a knucklehead on hit. He's a physical kid who's willing to fight and can create a ton of offense.

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03-24-2011, 01:49 PM
  #50
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That should be a bumper sticker or something.



Enh. If you're the Atlanta Thrashers it doesn't matter if you are 100% healthy. Staying healthy is the single greatest factor in playoff success for Detroit because the Wings are already good enough to win a Cup.
In today's NHL, any team that makes the playoffs has a shot at winning. If the worst team in the playoffs is healthy and plays a Detroit team without Datsyuk and Franzen and Bertuzzi...

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