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Old
03-24-2011, 12:51 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Why does that even matter?

So, if the Wings aren't the clear-cut best team in the league at a given moment... what? What happens? What does that mean?

Is that seriously the standard you use when looking at the Wings? If it's not, why bring it up? If it is, that's a fairly strict one, wouldn't you say?

It's a capped league. In a capped league you take the top 15-20% (or more) of the best teams and any one of them can win that years title based on all kinds of crazy contingencies.

Thanks to that cap the difference between losing in the first round and winning a Cup is next to nothing, really. Heck, look at last years Hawks. If they don't score a shorthanded goal with 14 freaking seconds left they're facing a 3-2 hole going to Nashville.

That's the NHL now, for better or worse.
2001-02
Before the Cap.
Lidstrom scores a fluke goal from half, or maybe the Wings get swept by Couver in the first round.

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Old
03-24-2011, 01:25 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Ehhh, what? What makes him a Sean Avery on defense? Granted, I've only seen one of his games with the Griffins, but in all the Badgers games I saw, he was nothing like Sean Avery. He's had some knucklehead moments off the ice, but I don't think he's a knucklehead on hit. He's a physical kid who's willing to fight and can create a ton of offense.
He makes me think a lot of Brian Campbell, just without the godawful contract.

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03-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
2001-02
Before the Cap.
Lidstrom scores a fluke goal from half, or maybe the Wings get swept by Couver in the first round.
Which playoff run hasn't had a moment like this?

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03-24-2011, 02:14 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Which playoff run hasn't had a moment like this?
Agreed. (although some playoff moments are more pivotal than others)
But HiHD is suggesting the Salary Cap makes it so, and the playoffs have been dogfights for years. I remember the Minnesota North Stars march to the playoffs in 1980, when they upset my Habs and then beat Philly.
or the next year, when the Oilers, down 30+plus points in the regular season, swept the Habs in round one.
Or the next year, when the Habs had 27 points more than Quebec, but lost in round one.

Or the Wings vs Sharks. Or the Wings vs. Leafs. or the Wings vs. Kings. Or the Wings vs. Oilers. Or the Wings vs. Ducks.

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03-24-2011, 02:18 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
He makes me think a lot of Brian Campbell, just without the godawful contract.
Brian Campbell isn't nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. Overpaid, yep.
But his plus/minus is by far the best among Chicago defensemen.
He's a mix between Rafalski and Kronwall.
I wouldn't want Cambpell at that price. But I don't want raffy at $6M either.

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03-24-2011, 02:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I wouldn't want Cambpell at that price. But I don't want raffy at $6M either.
You'd take Campbell at $7.1m but not Rafalski at $6m?

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03-24-2011, 03:34 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Rice View Post
You'd take Campbell at $7.1m but not Rafalski at $6m?
I think he meant he wouldn't take Campbell at 7.1 million, but he also wouldn't take Rafalski at 6 million, but thinks that Campbell is the better dman.

At this moment, because Raffi has gotten older, I tend to agree that Campbell is the better dman, but we needed Raffy to win that cup in 08, and due to Raffy having the lower contract he's the better fit for us.

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03-24-2011, 03:48 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Brian Campbell isn't nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. Overpaid, yep.
But his plus/minus is by far the best among Chicago defensemen.
He's a mix between Rafalski and Kronwall.
I wouldn't want Cambpell at that price. But I don't want raffy at $6M either.
I don't have a real problem with Campbell the player, either. But that contract is a lightening rod and too big of an anchor to swallow.

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03-24-2011, 05:28 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussha View Post
I think he meant he wouldn't take Campbell at 7.1 million, but he also wouldn't take Rafalski at 6 million, but thinks that Campbell is the better dman.

At this moment, because Raffi has gotten older, I tend to agree that Campbell is the better dman, but we needed Raffy to win that cup in 08, and due to Raffy having the lower contract he's the better fit for us.
Better at what? He's paid as much as he is for his offense first and foremost. He's been weak offensively for 2 years and has been surpassed easily on the depth chart.

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03-24-2011, 07:44 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Ehhh, what? What makes him a Sean Avery on defense? Granted, I've only seen one of his games with the Griffins, but in all the Badgers games I saw, he was nothing like Sean Avery. He's had some knucklehead moments off the ice, but I don't think he's a knucklehead on hit.
When you don't have any discipline off the ice, it's not like you have a totally different personality on it. Maybe it's just a maturity thing and he'll grow out of it, but then again maybe not. I've only seen 6 Griffins games in full this year, and it's not like Smith has been in 10 fights.

He's had 3 I think, and hasn't had any since 11/26. Dude had 113 PIMs, and 98 of them were non-fighting PIMs. Yes, 26 of them came in that especially stupid game of his where he blew up at the refs after committing 3 minors in the first two periods and earned a 10 minute misconduct and a 10 minute game... but even if you take out the misconduct minutes you're looking at the most non-fighting/conduct PIMs of any non-thug dman on the roster.

He doesn't look tough right now, he looks reckless and undisciplined. Avery eventually morphed from that into a total ******. Hopefully Smith won't follow him all the way down that path.

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Old
03-24-2011, 07:47 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
2001-02
Before the Cap.
Lidstrom scores a fluke goal from half, or maybe the Wings get swept by Couver in the first round.
Exactly. And that's when there would be 10-20 million bucks worth of roster difference between two playoff teams. Or more. Series would still be decided by bounces and oddities.

Now that teams start out much more evenly matched salary-wise?

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03-24-2011, 07:49 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
In today's NHL, any team that makes the playoffs has a shot at winning. If the worst team in the playoffs is healthy and plays a Detroit team without Datsyuk and Franzen and Bertuzzi...
This appears to make a rather compelling case for not dumping all over the team/coaches/organization for not winning in the playoffs all the time, doesn't it?

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03-24-2011, 07:58 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Agreed. (although some playoff moments are more pivotal than others)
But HiHD is suggesting the Salary Cap makes it so,
No, not at all. I am saying the salary cap makes it more so, not that it never happened before.

Pre-cap the first round was largely looked at as something of a formality for Detroit. In most cases their roster was somewhere between 10-30 million dollars more expensive than their opponents, so as long as the team played with at least 80% effort they'd roll. When Detroit lost in round 1 it was either looked at (justifiably) as a colossal upset or there was valid rationale to expect a struggle (injuries or defending a Cup or a lunatic goaltender)

Now every first round series is a damn near toss up. Every one. That wasn't the case pre-cap, and not even close. When they were good you could book on the Avs or the Stars or the Wings getting out of round 1 in 4 or 5. Getting stretched to 6 was a mortal insult, almost.

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Old
03-24-2011, 10:57 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
When you don't have any discipline off the ice, it's not like you have a totally different personality on it.
Most of the time that may be true, but not all of the time. There have been a number of college hockey players suspended or kicked off their teams for off-ice behavior, but had no issues on the ice.


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Maybe it's just a maturity thing and he'll grow out of it, but then again maybe not. I've only seen 6 Griffins games in full this year, and it's not like Smith has been in 10 fights.

He's had 3 I think, and hasn't had any since 11/26.
He's not a fighter, I agree. That's why I said he's "willing to fight"


Quote:
Dude had 113 PIMs, and 98 of them were non-fighting PIMs. Yes, 26 of them came in that especially stupid game of his where he blew up at the refs after committing 3 minors in the first two periods and earned a 10 minute misconduct and a 10 minute game... but even if you take out the misconduct minutes you're looking at the most non-fighting/conduct PIMs of any non-thug dman on the roster.
He has at least 3 10-minute misconducts (anyone know where to look that up?). So he has no more than 68 PIMS in minors; 39 minor penalties. That's about two every three games. I'm not sure that's too terribly out of control. And I'm pretty sure it's less than Amadio.


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He doesn't look tough right now, he looks reckless and undisciplined. Avery eventually morphed from that into a total ******. Hopefully Smith won't follow him all the way down that path.
Is he really reckless and undisciplined? A knucklehead? I haven't read that about him this season and I didn't see it. And he wasn't those things in college, where his rate of minor penalties was at least as high as it is in GR. Even if he were out of control in the A, I think it's a stretch to imply he's going to be another Sean Avery. Avery is a pretty unique breed of douchebaggery.

I have a lot of worries about a lot (all) of the Wings prospects, but Smith being too reckless and undisciplined is not one of them. I'm far more worried about him being good enough defensively to be a big minute defenseman.

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Old
03-25-2011, 08:23 AM
  #65
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You know who was reckless and wild as a young D-man? Chris Chelios!

Clearly he's the next Chelly.

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Old
03-26-2011, 07:32 AM
  #66
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Hopefully Fehr will do great things for us (getting rid of the cap), otherwise Holland needs to find more and more holes in the CBA. I'm thinking about stuff like making life for the players parents more convienent meaning don't buy a house, car for the player buy it for his wife pay the kids collegue you know stuff that doesn't count against the CBA, but DOES help signing top player cheap.

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03-26-2011, 08:43 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaglepride View Post
Hopefully Fehr will do great things for us (getting rid of the cap), otherwise Holland needs to find more and more holes in the CBA. I'm thinking about stuff like making life for the players parents more convienent meaning don't buy a house, car for the player buy it for his wife pay the kids collegue you know stuff that doesn't count against the CBA, but DOES help signing top player cheap.
Might help us (might), but it might hurt the players. While the few teams who could can no longer spend whatever they want, it's forced a bunch of teams to spend more than they would. With revenues continuing to go up, forcing the floor and ceiling up along with it, I'm not sure I'd want much of a change if I'm the players. The only thing that has bit them a bit is escrow, but I wonder how much of a hit that is compared to how much salaries have risen across the board.

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03-26-2011, 09:48 AM
  #68
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I don't see the cap ending without a lockout. I'd rather keep spending within the cap than lose another season to a labor dispute.

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Old
03-28-2011, 02:08 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Most of the time that may be true, but not all of the time. There have been a number of college hockey players suspended or kicked off their teams for off-ice behavior, but had no issues on the ice.
Two questions:

1) And?

2) How do you know the behavior of players off the ice didn't impact their play on it?

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He's not a fighter, I agree. That's why I said he's "willing to fight"
It seemed like you were saying that as though it was a good thing.

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Is he really reckless and undisciplined? A knucklehead? I haven't read that about him this season and I didn't see it. And he wasn't those things in college, where his rate of minor penalties was at least as high as it is in GR. Even if he were out of control in the A, I think it's a stretch to imply he's going to be another Sean Avery. Avery is a pretty unique breed of douchebaggery.
In 2009 he was suspended by the Badgers for the season opener, which may or may not have been the DUI he was cited for. In 2010 he was a healthy scratch the opening weekend for 'undisclosed reasons'. The same year, shortly after signing his three year deal with Detroit he was charged with disorderly conduct for a fight outside a Madison, WI home. This year he's had 3 game misconducts, including an 'abuse of officials' infraction.

Brendan Smith has some distinctly knuckle-headed proclivities.

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I have a lot of worries about a lot (all) of the Wings prospects, but Smith being too reckless and undisciplined is not one of them. I'm far more worried about him being good enough defensively to be a big minute defenseman.
Well, knowing what you do now, has your position changed?

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03-28-2011, 03:25 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Two questions:

1) And?

2) How do you know the behavior of players off the ice didn't impact their play on it?
1) And what? You insinuated that since Smith has had off-ice problems, he must have on-ice problems, right after saying he'll be a Sean Avery on defense in response to a comment about his PIMs. I'm just saying that's not necessarily the case. Seems you are making assumptions.

2) I didn't say it doesn't impact it (the personality that influences how someone behaves off the ice is the same personality that influences how a person behaves on it). I'm saying that just because a guy has had some off-ice issues doesn't mean they automatically translate to on-ice issues. In my four years at UM, I was close to the hockey program, and I'm familiar with specific cases of players who got in some trouble off the ice but were great players and teammates on it. I've also seen the same on other teams, as I follow college hockey pretty closely.


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It seemed like you were saying that as though it was a good thing.
I was. Barring some exceptions, willing to fight > not willing to fight, imo. Smith is 6'2", almost 200 lbs, plays physical, and has acquitted himself well in fights up to this point, so I don't think he's an exception.


Quote:
In 2009 he was suspended by the Badgers for the season opener, which may or may not have been the DUI he was cited for. In 2010 he was a healthy scratch the opening weekend for 'undisclosed reasons'. The same year, shortly after signing his three year deal with Detroit he was charged with disorderly conduct for a fight outside a Madison, WI home.
Sorry for not specifying, but I meant on the ice. Should have read:

"Is he really reckless and undisciplined on the ice? A knucklehead on the ice? I haven't read that about him this season and I didn't see it. And he wasn't those things in college, where his rate of minor penalties was at least as high as it is in GR. Even if he were out of control in the A, I think it's a stretch to imply he's going to be another Sean Avery. Avery is a pretty unique breed of douchebaggery."

I'm well aware of his transgressions off the ice. The season-opener suspension was actually in 2008, and it was indeed for a DUI. On a moped. The healthy scratch on opening weekend was actually in 2009, and it was for an MIP. The disorderly conduct was another drunken incident, at 2am, after a couple guys tried forcibly entering the party at his house after previously being turned away. The kid liked to drink in college and made some poor choices, obviously.

To the ice....

Quote:
This year he's had 3 game misconducts, including an 'abuse of officials' infraction.
Eh, they hand out "abuse of officials" penalties in the AHL all the time. He complained about a call and he shouldn't have. Not sure that makes him a reckless and undisciplined knucklehead.


Quote:
Well, knowing what you do now, has your position changed?
Since I know the same now as before this thread, no. Smith plays with some fire on the ice, and I think the part of him that produces that fire is the same part that resulted in his poor decisions with alcohol in college. That latter part seems to be behind him. The fire on the ice is still there, and while he's certainly prone to some bad penalties on occasion, I don't think he's a reckless and undisciplined knucklehead, and I definitely don't think he's another Sean Avery.

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03-28-2011, 06:26 PM
  #71
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Just be like me and have blind trust in Ken Holland. Ignorance is blisssssssssss!
Straight truth. As long as Holland is GM, I'll never predict doom and gloom until I see it.

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03-28-2011, 09:33 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
1) And what? You insinuated that since Smith has had off-ice problems, he must have on-ice problems,
No, I didn't say that. I've said he has had both on ice and off ice problems. You disputed the on-ice part of that, and claimed ignorance of the off-ice parts.

Quote:
2) I didn't say it doesn't impact it (the personality that influences how someone behaves off the ice is the same personality that influences how a person behaves on it). I'm saying that just because a guy has had some off-ice issues doesn't mean they automatically translate to on-ice issues.
... and I'm not saying they do either. I'm saying that Smith has had both. Whether they were chicken and the egg, egg and the chicken, or two wholly unrelated things which just happened to occur simultaneously... as both exist, I have concerns.

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In my four years at UM, I was close to the hockey program, and I'm familiar with specific cases of players who got in some trouble off the ice but were great players and teammates on it. I've also seen the same on other teams, as I follow college hockey pretty closely.
So since something doesn't follow a 100% corollary it should be...?

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I was. Barring some exceptions, willing to fight > not willing to fight, imo.
Would one of those exceptions perhaps be when said player is expected to be a significant contributor to the offense, so being willing to voluntarily place himself in the penalty box for 5 minutes at a time may not, in fact, be such a marvelous idea?

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Smith is 6'2", almost 200 lbs, plays physical, and has acquitted himself well in fights up to this point, so I don't think he's an exception.
That's the thing with Smith. He's actually not that physical. It seems like you're reaching a bit to give the guy a compliment based on having watched him... how many times, again?

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Eh, they hand out "abuse of officials" penalties in the AHL all the time. He complained about a call and he shouldn't have. Not sure that makes him a reckless and undisciplined knucklehead.
That, all by itself, in a vacuum? Of course not. That, in addition to his off ice issues, in addition to his on-ice play? Hints rather strongly at it.

Quote:
Since I know the same now as before this thread, no. Smith plays with some fire on the ice, and I think the part of him that produces that fire is the same part that resulted in his poor decisions with alcohol in college. That latter part seems to be behind him.
Based on what, exactly... him not getting in trouble with the police in less than a year?

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The fire on the ice is still there, and while he's certainly prone to some bad penalties on occasion, I don't think he's a reckless and undisciplined knucklehead, and I definitely don't think he's another Sean Avery.
Sean Avery wasn't Sean Avery from day 1, either. Smith is at something of a crossroads, IMO. If he doesn't get his act together and start acting with more poise both on and off the ice, he runs the risk of having a difficult time in the Wings organization.

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03-28-2011, 10:48 PM
  #73
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[QUOTE=HockeyinHD;31966751

Sean Avery wasn't Sean Avery from day 1, either. [/quote]

I remember being disappointed when Avery was moved. I thought he was fast, relatively tough for a Wing, and that he caused teams to take a lot of penalties. But I also remember some guys thought, even at that young point in his career, that he was disgraceful.


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Smith is at something of a crossroads, IMO. If he doesn't get his act together and start acting with more poise both on and off the ice, he runs the risk of having a difficult time in the Wings organization.
That's a bit extreme.

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03-28-2011, 11:12 PM
  #74
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Didn't Smith have a reputation for "locker room" problems as well? Meaningless practice fights and all that nonsense?

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03-29-2011, 01:14 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
No, I didn't say that. I've said he has had both on ice and off ice problems.
You said, "When you don't have any discipline off the ice, it's not like you have a totally different personality on it." Taking that phrase at face value, it's pretty empty, because, well, duh. But, in combination with your other comments that I think are inflating his on-ice issues, it seems you are saying that because he's had serious off-ice transgressions, he'll naturally have serious on-ice transgressions (i.e. turning into Sean Avery on defense).


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You disputed the on-ice part of that, and claimed ignorance of the off-ice parts.
I disagree with the severity you seem to be placing on his on-ice issues. There are a couple Griffins forums I read and post on from time to time, and there's no outcry from Griffs fans about Smith being a reckless and undisciplined knucklehead. He plays with a fire that occasionally results in him taking some bad penalties, sure, but it's also a fire that he seems to benefit from, as it raises his level of play. It's a double-edged sword, imo. And I can live with that if he turns out to be as good in the NHL as some people say he will.

No where have I claimed ignorance of his off-ice issues.


Quote:
... and I'm not saying they do either. I'm saying that Smith has had both. Whether they were chicken and the egg, egg and the chicken, or two wholly unrelated things which just happened to occur simultaneously... as both exist, I have concerns.
Well then we agree on that part. Concerns are reasonable. Saying he'll be the next Sean Avery.... not so reasonable.


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So since something doesn't follow a 100% corollary it should be...?
You asked how I know it's possible a player's off-ice behavior doesn't affect his on-ice behavior. My answer was first-hand experience. That's all I was saying.


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Would one of those exceptions perhaps be when said player is expected to be a significant contributor to the offense, so being willing to voluntarily place himself in the penalty box for 5 minutes at a time may not, in fact, be such a marvelous idea?
No, of course not. If he were tabbed as a regular fighter? Of course, and I would agree. Not being a regular fighter but being willing to fight? Chelios, Pronger, Stevens, Blake, and Vladdy are a few names who come to mind. I don't think they hurt their teams with their handful of fights each season, sticking up for their teammates and themselves.


Quote:
That's the thing with Smith. He's actually not that physical. It seems like you're reaching a bit to give the guy a compliment based on having watched him... how many times, again?
He's not that physical? What does that mean? What is "that" physical?

Reaching? Nah, just going by what I've seen in the 15-20 games I've watched him in. Does his game revolve around physical play? No. Does he take opponents heads off with bone-crushing hits? No. Does he have an aggressive nature and physical element to his game? Absolutely. If that has changed in the last 3 months, since I saw him last, well, I hadn't heard, and that would be disappointing. It'd also be pretty hard to believe.


Quote:
That, all by itself, in a vacuum? Of course not. That, in addition to his off ice issues, in addition to his on-ice play? Hints rather strongly at it.
That must be a lot of additionals. So a few drinking incidents in college, an abuse of an official penalty in the AHL, and his physical play hint very strongly at a player who is a reckless and undisciplined knucklehead on the ice. Interesting.


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Based on what, exactly... him not getting in trouble with the police in less than a year?
Partly, but more so that he is no longer in a college environment with a bunch of other 21yo college students, drinking alcohol every weekend and hosting house parties for more drunk 21yos, and instead in a professional environment where he's spending time with adults and mentors. I certainly wouldn't be shocked if he had another incident, but he's no longer in an environment that promotes such issues and seems to be succeeding as a professional. That's why that stuff seems to be behind him (not definitively saying it is).


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Sean Avery wasn't Sean Avery from day 1, either. Smith is at something of a crossroads, IMO. If he doesn't get his act together and start acting with more poise both on and off the ice, he runs the risk of having a difficult time in the Wings organization.
His "act" (off the ice) appears to be together at this point. He just needs to keep it together. His act on the ice is fine and I seriously doubt the Wings are worried about that element. If they are, they have said zilch about it, which is very unlike them.

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