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Old
03-24-2011, 07:24 PM
  #226
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I'm not gonna get into the fat loss argument again, but the most fat loss will have happen during the actual exercise when calories are burned. Whether it's a 45 minute workout or a 20 minute HIIT session is irrelevant. It is about how many calories you have burned. Can you burn more calories in 20 minutes with HIIT as opposed to a 45 minute session, perhaps, if not then it won't be as effective. Any EPOC effect associated with HIIT is highly exaggerated.

It's more about personal preference and both slow steady state exercise and HIIT should be apart of any program.

I'll say it one more time.

1. Protein 1-1.5 g per lb
2. Calories in vs Calories out
3. Strength training

Is all that is required to cut fat.

If your diet is junk no amount of interval training can save you. It's no more effective than steady state cardio. If your diet is junk it won't work in either case.

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03-24-2011, 07:41 PM
  #227
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I sprained my rotator cuff at the gym doing too much too often.. Anyone else got this type of injury before? It's been 5 weeks and it still hurts. I got some exercises to do from my chiro and I hope it heals quickly.

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03-24-2011, 08:09 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Anybody who works out will tell you that any body-improvement goal like weightloss or muscle building are largely dependent on what you put into your body.

In Gary Taubes' 'Why we get fat', he challenges the notion that physical activity helps with weight loss at all. Not sure how i feel about this, but the book is fantastic.
I can tell you that is completely ludicrous. I am someone who used physical activity to lose weight. His idea isn't wrong since really large people can't do high intensity work outs and thus don't burn that many calories, but for someone like myself who was just over weight for lack of physical activity and eating too many chips, and meat and pretty much no vegetables, fruits, not really any dairy at that point (was convinced I was lactose intolerant).

Now that I lost weight, I couldn't get much lower then around 220 lbs, and at a certain I stopped exercising and got back up to 240 lbs. Now I have changed my diet significantly, adding yogurt and about 3 different fruits a day, and will try and add lettuce or whatever to my diet. I'm now back down to 230 lbs.

Diet is important to help you lose weight, and exercise gives you an advantage.

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03-25-2011, 09:35 PM
  #229
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It's not completely ludicrous, most of weight loss is diet, he is correct. What you do for exercise, (IE strength training) will determine your body composition, providing you eat 1-1.5g of protein. I would say weight loss or fat loss is 90-95% diet.

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03-26-2011, 02:44 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by MetroGnome View Post
Legitimate question: For those of you who take Omega-3 fish oil daily, why do you take it?

Iíve heard it can help reduce the frequency and intensity of migraines, which is something Iíve always suffered from, but lately Iíve been getting them way more often than usual (4-5 days a week). However, Iíve also heard that it can lower blood pressureÖ I used to have low blood pressure and donít want to be borderline again.


----------
On another note, I havenít updated since last summer I think.

One thing I havenít mentioned was that I was underweight as a kid and in my junior high school years; however, I gained a bit of midsection fat once I started university. I didnít have much to lose (my weight has always been constant), but I feel like I trimmed down the excess fat and overall, Iím healthier.

My two biggest changes were:
1. Drinking more water. I used to drink max 2 glasses of water a day, now Iíll refill my bottle many times.
2. I never used to eat fruits and veggies. Now Iíll pack a container full of them and eat it throughout the day as snacks.
Basically things people have always told me, but I had to learn it on my own because Iím stubborn.

The main reason why people take O-3 is because the average diet is just filled with a huge amount of O-6. You need to stabilize the levels other wise there is a multitude of healthy related issues that could follow, most importantly heart problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
It's not completely ludicrous, most of weight loss is diet, he is correct. What you do for exercise, (IE strength training) will determine your body composition, providing you eat 1-1.5g of protein. I would say weight loss or fat loss is 90-95% diet.
That is per lb of lean muscle mass, not overall weight.

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03-26-2011, 03:29 AM
  #231
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So in summer I want to start training in mini sessions of twice a day. I feel my best bet to stay active is to have 2 shorter workouts on my days off from work. For those who have done this, what do you suggest doing in morning and afternoon sessions. Obviously it depends on what you worked out prior to the date in particular, but assuming no conflict, what do you think is best? I'm not sure whether to go cardio(and high intensity workouts) in the morning and weight training muscle groups in the afternoon or to just do a seperate muscle group on each session?

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03-26-2011, 05:17 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The main reason why people take O-3 is because the average diet is just filled with a huge amount of O-6. You need to stabilize the levels other wise there is a multitude of healthy related issues that could follow, most importantly heart problems.



That is per lb of lean muscle mass, not overall weight.
Correct

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03-26-2011, 05:21 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
So in summer I want to start training in mini sessions of twice a day. I feel my best bet to stay active is to have 2 shorter workouts on my days off from work. For those who have done this, what do you suggest doing in morning and afternoon sessions. Obviously it depends on what you worked out prior to the date in particular, but assuming no conflict, what do you think is best? I'm not sure whether to go cardio(and high intensity workouts) in the morning and weight training muscle groups in the afternoon or to just do a seperate muscle group on each session?
If you can sustain two daily sessions, I would weight train in the morning and HIIT in the afternoon. Personal preference I suppose.

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03-26-2011, 11:01 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
So in summer I want to start training in mini sessions of twice a day. I feel my best bet to stay active is to have 2 shorter workouts on my days off from work. For those who have done this, what do you suggest doing in morning and afternoon sessions. Obviously it depends on what you worked out prior to the date in particular, but assuming no conflict, what do you think is best? I'm not sure whether to go cardio(and high intensity workouts) in the morning and weight training muscle groups in the afternoon or to just do a seperate muscle group on each session?
As habsjunkie said, do you strength training before.
Also, don't over train.

I'm curious, what do you do for your HIIT workouts?

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03-26-2011, 11:33 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
If you can sustain two daily sessions, I would weight train in the morning and HIIT in the afternoon. Personal preference I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As habsjunkie said, do you strength training before.
Also, don't over train.

I'm curious, what do you do for your HIIT workouts?
Why this way? What's the downside of doing the opposite?

I haven't decided yet. I'm open to suggestions and would probably do best taking the advice on this forum. I know very little about training so I'll gladly listen to opinions.

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03-26-2011, 11:52 AM
  #236
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First time I post in here. Thought I'd share a funny fact. Or - how to link fitness to Habs.

IMO, the hardest part in fitness training is not quitting. The trick for that is in turning fitness into a pleasant activity/reward, instead of a punishment.

I do my exercise mostly to keep weight under control but also for two other important reasons:

1. exercise is great for your psyche, for your morale It's a great antidepressant treatment. There are several mechanisms: blood flow, dopamine system, and purely behavioral (after you managed to do your training you have experienced success - always a positive).

2. heart/vascular disease prevention.

So - from my point of view, it is important that my training is fun, enjoyable and not painful - I want to be motivated to do it on a regular basis, preferably not stop it and when I stop it for a few days not live it as a failure. I care a lot less about muscle building.

So - here's what I do. I bought myself a few years ago a comfy stationary bike from Costco (Proform GL125). Whenever I have some sport to watch on the TV (a 50'HD) I do it on my bike. I don't care much about a structured program - my objective is to reach 4-500 calories spent per session.

So - that's how I watch many of my Habs games (same with the Als and the NFL). You do not realize the time passing most of the time.

Also fun - I usually run the resistance around 3-5 (on a 10 points scale). Whenever the Habs go through a hard moment (PK, 3 on 5, they need to score a goal) - I raise the resistance to 7-8. I'm telling myself - I can't ask them to "give their 100%" if I'm not capable to do it myself. It becomes a funny game.

What do you think?

P.S. Lately I played Dragon Age II while biking. There are so many cutscenes and load times in that game, and battles are so short that it was unfortunately possible.

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03-26-2011, 12:27 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Why this way? What's the downside of doing the opposite?

I haven't decided yet. I'm open to suggestions and would probably do best taking the advice on this forum. I know very little about training so I'll gladly listen to opinions.
There could be many reasons as to why you should train strength before cardio.

First off, your energy level will not be as high the 2nd time you go to the gym. Your muscles will be tired, or at least more so than before the 1st workout.
This could higher the risk of injury and if your lifting heavy weights tired, it's a recipe for disaster imo, on top of not nearly being as effective.

But that is why I asked what the HIIT was.

And then, there's a bit of what habsjunkie said as well, personal preference. I would always suggest people to do weight training before because it requires a lot more focus, and as everyone knows, the more tired the less focus you are.

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Old
03-26-2011, 01:41 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Why this way? What's the downside of doing the opposite?

I haven't decided yet. I'm open to suggestions and would probably do best taking the advice on this forum. I know very little about training so I'll gladly listen to opinions.
In my experience it is always better to weight train first. Expending your energy during a tough HIIT session will only hinder your lifts. Although you're breaking them into separate sessions you will still be fatigue going into your weight training. To achieve optimal results you should do them the other way around.

Just my opinion.

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03-26-2011, 05:00 PM
  #239
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Thank you both. I was under the impression with a proper cardio workout, and perhaps a proper recovery(wake up earlier, and power nap later if I need to), i'd continue to keep my focus however, this is very unpredictable and perhaps too much of a hassle. I'll likely try both, but odds are, I'll listen to you guys and take the safer route.

I'll probably just go weight training and HIIT in the afternoon.

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03-26-2011, 05:06 PM
  #240
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Only disingenuous frauds claim HIIT is superior for fat loss. Sorry to burst some bubbles here, but exercise does NOT have much of an impact on losing fat. Diet is 90 % of it. Look up Dr. Melanson, there is no afterburn in the next 24 hours as falsely believed by exercise buffs. Recent peer reviewed scientific literature supports this . Exercise does NOT speed the metabolism when you are done.

This whole issue is one of Lyle McDonald's pet peeves. The Tremblay Study did NOT in any way find "9 times greater fat loss". After 15 weeks there was ONLY 2 pounds lost in the interval subjects.

There were other factors too in the study - diet was NOT controlled. Using Tremblay's research for the " HIIT is better for fat loss" argument is fraud. I have spoken to Tremblay himself. His research shows no such thing.


Diet is for fat loss. HIIT is for the anaerobic system. Running steadily burns TWICE the calories HIIT does, and remember there is NO AFTERBURN. HIIT does NOT burn many calories.


If you get hungrier from steady state running, though, and overeat , then that is a problem, and negates the dramatically increased calorie burn of steady state running .

And please don't even start the farcical "sprinter vs marathoner" argument, another pet peeve of Lyle McDonald. Sprinters do NOT do HIIT. There sprint workouts do NOT resemble it in the least.(this is something HIIT proponents never mention)


MOST (75 %) of an Olympic sprinter's workout is LOW INTENSITY tempo runs . ( this is also something HIIT proponents never mention)

THAT is how they lean out if anything (exercise wise) mixed with diet. The person's build picks the sport. Persons who naturally look like sprinters go into sprinting.

There are plenty of steady state runners I see with great bodies. (of course their calorie intake is correct)

There is NOTHING magical about sprinting for fat loss purposes , despite the farcical hype.


Here is a post I have found online a year or 2 back and it echoes my complete thoughts on the subject of HIIT vs steady state. I have read all the claims and found most of them to be BS.

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Old
03-26-2011, 05:06 PM
  #241
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I don't have the balls to weigh myself but I'm pretty sure I took on at least 10 pounds over the last 5 weeks. I almost died last month and for about 4 weeks I had a "F that" attitude towards everything that wasn't fun or that didn't "feel good". I ate more crap during that time span than I did the previous 3 months combined and I put my whole semester in jeopardy because I didn't do ****


meh. At least now I'm mentally back on track

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Old
03-26-2011, 05:08 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I can tell you that is completely ludicrous. I am someone who used physical activity to lose weight. His idea isn't wrong since really large people can't do high intensity work outs and thus don't burn that many calories, but for someone like myself who was just over weight for lack of physical activity and eating too many chips, and meat and pretty much no vegetables, fruits, not really any dairy at that point (was convinced I was lactose intolerant).

Now that I lost weight, I couldn't get much lower then around 220 lbs, and at a certain I stopped exercising and got back up to 240 lbs. Now I have changed my diet significantly, adding yogurt and about 3 different fruits a day, and will try and add lettuce or whatever to my diet. I'm now back down to 230 lbs.

Diet is important to help you lose weight, and exercise gives you an advantage.
Well he goes on to say much more on the subject. He completely throws out the whole calories in/calories out idea. Worth looking up. A lot of people think it's ******** because it's what we've been taught our entire lives. The facts and studies he brings up in the book are pretty hard to disagree with.

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03-26-2011, 05:29 PM
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Well he goes on to say much more on the subject. He completely throws out the whole calories in/calories out idea. Worth looking up. A lot of people think it's ******** because it's what we've been taught our entire lives. The facts and studies he brings up in the book are pretty hard to disagree with.
It's all subjective. I'm going to sit here and think if I eat foods high in fat, trans fat... and exercise I can lose weight. The calories in vs calories out works well for people like myself who tend to overeat, and eat too much junk. By replacing junk with lean foods and vegetables, you will use end up burning some of your reserves along with the food you consumed that day. I think he can be right, but again everyone can test differently and thus everything can vary. I have never picked up a book about weight loss, or needed a guide to achieve my goal. I don't believe that one person will write the ultimate guide to losing weight that will work for everyone.

I don't really know what I'm getting at here, but I just think that physical activity has to be a part of everyones life. Even if you need to change your diet to lose weight, I feel physical activity keeps your body young, and will keep you healthier then any diet can. (together they make an even better team) So for him to try and prove that physical activity isn't necessary for weight loss, well I feel he is trying to prove something that can hurt people in the long run.

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03-26-2011, 05:32 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
It's all subjective. I'm going to sit here and think if I eat foods high in fat, trans fat... and exercise I can lose weight. The calories in vs calories out works well for people like myself who tend to overeat, and eat too much junk. By replacing junk with lean foods and vegetables, you will use end up burning some of your reserves along with the food you consumed that day. I think he can be right, but again everyone can test differently and thus everything can vary. I have never picked up a book about weight loss, or needed a guide to achieve my goal. I don't believe that one person will write the ultimate guide to losing weight that will work for everyone.

I don't really know what I'm getting at here, but I just think that physical activity has to be a part of everyones life. Even if you need to change your diet to lose weight, I feel physical activity keeps your body young, and will keep you healthier then any diet can. (together they make an even better team) So for him to try and prove that physical activity isn't necessary for weight loss, well I feel he is trying to prove something that can hurt people in the long run.
Don't get me wrong, working out is fantastic. There are many benefits to it. So many that enumerating them here would take me forever. And while I also agree that there will never be a magic weightloss 'formula', i think that we will eventually find a 'best way' or 'best path' to lose weight, based on continued learning of human biology.

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03-28-2011, 10:32 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Only disingenuous frauds claim HIIT is superior for fat loss. Sorry to burst some bubbles here, but exercise does NOT have much of an impact on losing fat. Diet is 90 % of it. Look up Dr. Melanson, there is no afterburn in the next 24 hours as falsely believed by exercise buffs. Recent peer reviewed scientific literature supports this . Exercise does NOT speed the metabolism when you are done.

This whole issue is one of Lyle McDonald's pet peeves. The Tremblay Study did NOT in any way find "9 times greater fat loss". After 15 weeks there was ONLY 2 pounds lost in the interval subjects.

There were other factors too in the study - diet was NOT controlled. Using Tremblay's research for the " HIIT is better for fat loss" argument is fraud. I have spoken to Tremblay himself. His research shows no such thing.


Diet is for fat loss. HIIT is for the anaerobic system. Running steadily burns TWICE the calories HIIT does, and remember there is NO AFTERBURN. HIIT does NOT burn many calories.


If you get hungrier from steady state running, though, and overeat , then that is a problem, and negates the dramatically increased calorie burn of steady state running .

And please don't even start the farcical "sprinter vs marathoner" argument, another pet peeve of Lyle McDonald. Sprinters do NOT do HIIT. There sprint workouts do NOT resemble it in the least.(this is something HIIT proponents never mention)


MOST (75 %) of an Olympic sprinter's workout is LOW INTENSITY tempo runs . ( this is also something HIIT proponents never mention)

THAT is how they lean out if anything (exercise wise) mixed with diet. The person's build picks the sport. Persons who naturally look like sprinters go into sprinting.

There are plenty of steady state runners I see with great bodies. (of course their calorie intake is correct)

There is NOTHING magical about sprinting for fat loss purposes , despite the farcical hype.


Here is a post I have found online a year or 2 back and it echoes my complete thoughts on the subject of HIIT vs steady state. I have read all the claims and found most of them to be BS.
This sounds like some rant more than anything.

What I agree with is that Diet is by far the most important thing. Without a focus on nutrition, forget about weight loss.

As far as anaerobic vs aerobic, to me, there is no question which is better.
In a nutshell, wouldn't you agree that your physical results will come from intensity? Lift light weights that don't require much power(intensity), do similar low powered runs, you will leave the gym without having sweat a drop and will see absolutely no gains at such a low intensity. Raise the power, and you will start seeing gains.
Anaerobic exercises are high in power, aerobic exercises are low in power. Seems pretty logical which is best.
Go run for 20min at a low-moderate pace, the next day, do 20min for a maximum number of rounds of 5pull ups/10push ups/15squats, see which one will gas you out more.
Anaerobic exercises will also build muscle, whereas aerobic will burn muscles.


There's more to weight loss than just caloric deficit as well. For some people, having a huge caloric deficit+exercising is actually counter productive. Your body will be in a constant state of stress from dieting and exercising (especially at a higher intensity). Stress releases cortisol, which mobilizes fat loss. This comes from the same Lyle Mcdonald the guy is quoting.

All in all, eat healthy, do any form of exercise, you will see results. Which is more effective for fat loss? New studies constantly appear to counter other theories. Personally, I feel working out anaerobically is better as you improve power, strength, your VO2max, and yes, you also burn fat. Whereas Aerobically, you only work your VO2 and burn fat. There's no debate which is better imo.

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03-28-2011, 01:54 PM
  #246
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I hate HIIT, it destroys my recovery abilities. It's great for fitness though, I would use kettlebells if I wanted to do some conditionning.


For training: stopped drinking completely for the last month and a half, lost a lot of fat, gained muscle (2 pounds away from when I left Montreal, but noticeably leaner), gained strength on the bench, back is healed at about 80-90%(I an deadlift again!), shoulder sprain is getting better by the day (should be healed soon). Pretty happy with everything. I've begun to apply to 80/20 principles to training as well, got rid of all the fluff in my workouts.

I'm moving to a new place soon so I'm thinking of dropping my gym membership and buying this for an appartment:

http://www.roguecanada.ca/s2-squat-stand.php

700$ shipped for really high quality. I just need a bar and some steel plates. I think I can manage to make a home gym for 1000$, which is great.

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03-28-2011, 02:06 PM
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
This sounds like some rant more than anything.

What I agree with is that Diet is by far the most important thing. Without a focus on nutrition, forget about weight loss.

As far as anaerobic vs aerobic, to me, there is no question which is better.
In a nutshell, wouldn't you agree that your physical results will come from intensity? Lift light weights that don't require much power(intensity), do similar low powered runs, you will leave the gym without having sweat a drop and will see absolutely no gains at such a low intensity. Raise the power, and you will start seeing gains.
Anaerobic exercises are high in power, aerobic exercises are low in power. Seems pretty logical which is best.
Go run for 20min at a low-moderate pace, the next day, do 20min for a maximum number of rounds of 5pull ups/10push ups/15squats, see which one will gas you out more.
Anaerobic exercises will also build muscle, whereas aerobic will burn muscles.


There's more to weight loss than just caloric deficit as well. For some people, having a huge caloric deficit+exercising is actually counter productive. Your body will be in a constant state of stress from dieting and exercising (especially at a higher intensity). Stress releases cortisol, which mobilizes fat loss. This comes from the same Lyle Mcdonald the guy is quoting.

All in all, eat healthy, do any form of exercise, you will see results. Which is more effective for fat loss? New studies constantly appear to counter other theories. Personally, I feel working out anaerobically is better as you improve power, strength, your VO2max, and yes, you also burn fat. Whereas Aerobically, you only work your VO2 and burn fat. There's no debate which is better imo.
As far as intensity goes, it all depends on what your goals are. It has been proven that slow steady state cardio is king. I know who Lyle Macdonald is and what Lyle is saying contradicts you, "especially at a higher intensity". Higher intensity exercising with a weight loss diet are unsustainable for most people. Part of the reason why steady state trumps it.

The truth is HIIT is not superior for fat loss as many people claim. Diet is the only answer, but 45 minute cardio sessions burn more than 20minute HIIT, so to tell someone they will burn more fat doing HIIT is completely false.


Last edited by habsjunkie2*: 03-28-2011 at 02:12 PM.
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03-28-2011, 02:20 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
As far as intensity goes, it all depends on what your goals are. It has been proven that slow steady state cardio is king. I know who Lyle Macdonald is and what Lyle is saying contradicts you, "especially at a higher intensity". Higher intensity exercising with a weight loss diet are unsustainable for most people. Part of the reason why steady state trumps it.

The truth is HIIT is not superior for fat loss as many people claim. Diet is the only answer, but 45 minute cardio sessions burn more than 20minute HIIT, so to tell someone they will burn more fat doing HIIT is completely false.
Yeah in simple form (for people who may want to know) its because HIIT burns more carbs than fat because you need access to a quick energy source as opposed to consistent lower intensity over a longer time. Do tell if I am off anywheres but that is what I have gathered.


In short : I agree and that was my understanding as well.


Last edited by Perrah: 03-28-2011 at 02:27 PM.
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03-28-2011, 05:00 PM
  #249
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My 3 day split has been getting too demanding. Starting a new split tomorrow and upping all my lifts. First time I'm trying something this spread out so we'll see how it goes for a month or so.

Day 1
Chest + Cardio

Day 2
Legs

Day 3
Bi + Tri + Optional Cardio

Day 4.
Shoulders + Optional Abs

Day 5.
Back

Day 6
Abs + Cardio
I'm done my first work through. I decided to cut out day 6 and simply start back at day 1 after day 5. I'll pepper some abs work throughout but I'm set there anyways so no point in wasting a day for them.

So far though I'm having a blast with this split. Less time in the gym and better lifts.

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Old
03-28-2011, 05:42 PM
  #250
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
As far as intensity goes, it all depends on what your goals are. It has been proven that slow steady state cardio is king. I know who Lyle Macdonald is and what Lyle is saying contradicts you, "especially at a higher intensity". Higher intensity exercising with a weight loss diet are unsustainable for most people. Part of the reason why steady state trumps it.

The truth is HIIT is not superior for fat loss as many people claim. Diet is the only answer, but 45 minute cardio sessions burn more than 20minute HIIT, so to tell someone they will burn more fat doing HIIT is completely false.
I would hope so considering you're taking more than double the time. Do 20min of running however, compared to 20min of HIIT, and again, come tell me which is more beneficial, for everything.

I'm surprised an army man such as yourself would go that route. Military soldiers are very high on HIIT type of programming such as Crossfit, and the Seals have developed their own crossfit inspired workouts called Sealfit.

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