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5 reasons to still believe in the Kopitar-less Kings

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Old
03-29-2011, 04:03 AM
  #26
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Losing Kopitar and Williams is losing 47 of the 351 goals the Kings have scored this season, or roughly 13 percent 207 goals the Kings have scored, or roughly 23 percent. (Ed. Note: Apologies ... notes fail.) There's no replacing
That's a little misleading, I think. When you include assists, Kopitar has factored into 37% of our goals (198, I'm not counting shootout winners as goals) and Williams 29%. I'm not going to go through and count how many goals they have had points on together, but I think we can safely say that these 2 guys factor into at least 50% of our goals.

In this, I agree with JT to an extent (I disagree with Quick being middle of the road for isntance). Winning 2-1 games is perfectly fine with me, I enjoy it no matter the score as long as the Kings' number is bigger than their opponent's, but we have to score those 2 goals to win those 2-1 games. Now, I have calmed down a bit since my slight overraction that night, but I still don't like our chances.

I also think that some of you might not be thinking about all the things Kopitar does for out outside of the obvious being our best offensive player and best defensive forward. When Kopitar is on the ice (and he's out there for more than 21 minutes/game) he runs things. He carries the puck out of the defensive zone, he carries or distributes it through the neutral zone, he's one of the only guys that carries it into the offensive zone consistently, he chases down pucks all over the ice, fights off checkers, slows down the game in the offensive zone to let everyone get in and set up, and distributes the puck out of the cycle.

Guys are going to have to set up BIG TIME. The D, namely Johnson and Doughty, are going to need to take things over regarding carrying the puck from the defensive to offensive zones. They're going to need to do a LOT more running the offense as well. Hopefully they can do it.

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03-29-2011, 10:24 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Look. I'm like most everyone else in the wake of this injury. I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm frustrated. I think, what I want to see is - what I mentioned that I would do in the other thread, about calling up Holloway, calling up Kozun; they already have Moller up. Just ... I dunno, INSPIRE me a little here. Respond a bit, and take a ****ing RISK! Inject some new fresh blood into this team that's on the emergency room bed. Bring up some guys that will love every moment of being in the NHL. Maybe the veterans will get caught up in that a bit, if they're not careful. Maybe a line with Moller and Holloway catches lightning in a bottle.

I'm so tired of seeing the same uninspired reaction to adversity from this regime. "Oh let's trot out 80-year-old Ryan Smyth, who hasn't done **** the past month and change; let's plug in Westgarth, who clearly can't play in this league." I just would like to see the Kings go down fighting a little bit, to the point where - even if they go down - at least they're able to say "Hey, we tried something here. We have these talented guys down in the AHL and we wanted to get them some valuable experience, while at the same time, we thought they might provide a bit of a quandary for our opponents, seeing as how they've never faced these players and don't know their tendencies yet." Why can't they do that??? Why can't they have a little bit of Dylan Thomas in them - Do not go gently into that good night? Dean Lombardi reminds me of George McClellan in the American Civil War - build up a fine army, then proceed to do nothing with it. Why can't he have a little Robert E. Lee in him? Take some chances. What about the old line about extreme situations requiring extreme measures? Well, here's an extreme situation. Make me a believer. Is this too much to ask?
Dude, the kings just finished up a successful homestand. You make it sound like we're on some losing streak. And as much as I too would like to see a call up (Kozun please), I understand the reason for no movement. However, if we lose a couple games or so, I think you'll see someone getting the call. Until then let's see if our boys will pick up the slack and continue to add to our current winning streak.

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03-29-2011, 12:09 PM
  #28
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[QUOTE=JT Dutch;31970878]... Look. I'm like most everyone else in the wake of this injury. I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm frustrated. I think, what I want to see is - what I mentioned that I would do in the other thread, about calling up Holloway, calling up Kozun; they already have Moller up. Just ... I dunno, INSPIRE me a little here. Respond a bit, and take a ****ing RISK! Inject some new fresh blood into this team that's on the emergency room bed. Bring up some guys that will love every moment of being in the NHL. Maybe the veterans will get caught up in that a bit, if they're not careful. Maybe a line with Moller and Holloway catches lightning in a bottle.

I'm so tired of seeing the same uninspired reaction to adversity from this regime. "Oh let's trot out 80-year-old Ryan Smyth, who hasn't done **** the past month and change; let's plug in Westgarth, who clearly can't play in this league." I just would like to see the Kings go down fighting a little bit, to the point where - even if they go down - at least they're able to say "Hey, we tried something here. We have these talented guys down in the AHL and we wanted to get them some valuable experience, while at the same time, we thought they might provide a bit of a quandary for our opponents, seeing as how they've never faced these players and don't know their tendencies yet." Why can't they do that??? Why can't they have a little bit of Dylan Thomas in them - Do not go gently into that good night? Dean Lombardi reminds me of George McClellan in the American Civil War - build up a fine army, then proceed to do nothing with it. Why can't he have a little Robert E. Lee in him? Take some chances. What about the old line about extreme situations requiring extreme measures? Well, here's an extreme situation. Make me a believer. Is this too much to ask?[/QUOTE



I completely agree with you that we should bring up a couple of our kids to fill our needs and breathe some life into the team. How many times have we seen other teams in exactly this same position call up a kid or two and go on a rip? It happens all the time.

I actually think that will happen over the next game or two so I will wait and see what we do until then. I know we should act now and would rather that we do but I will give it a couple of games anyways.

Your frustration doesn't seem off base to me, it just doesn't. Maybe its how your expressing it, I don't know. I know that there isn't any quit in you as a fan so the rest is merely semantics as far as I can tell.

If we can't compete and do nothing about it then I am mostly right where you are and will be equally frustrated in many ways but until I see what we do I will remain optimistically concerned.

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03-29-2011, 12:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Yes, newer Kings fan, tell me what real fans of the team do. Sorry to disappoint you, I can't trick myself into thinking this team is better because they lost their best player. I can't lie to myself.
LMAO - I've been a fan since 1972. Please spare me your condescension.

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03-29-2011, 12:29 PM
  #30
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Dude, the kings just finished up a successful homestand. You make it sound like we're on some losing streak. And as much as I too would like to see a call up (Kozun please), I understand the reason for no movement. However, if we lose a couple games or so, I think you'll see someone getting the call. Until then let's see if our boys will pick up the slack and continue to add to our current winning streak.
Exactly... we haven't even played a full game without Kopitar yet. Let's see what happens in these next two games.

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03-29-2011, 12:32 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... I never said he didn't, did I? It might even carry some merit, if he actually watched the Kings play once in a while.
Do you know that he doesn't?

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... Now that we got that out of the way, it's awfully cute how you and a couple others want to say I'm "throwing in the towel."
The reason I am, and I can only speak for myself, is because you were so critical towards those who complained earlier in the season when things didn't go the Kings way. Now things didn't go the Kings way in one of the worst imaginable and you decide to head down that road? Perhaps you should look in the mirror at yourself before you choose to be so condescending of others. It reads like a throwing in of the towel to be completely honest and that's okay if you so choose.

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What I want to know is this - what, specifically, makes you think that the Kings will play better without Kopitar than they did with him?
Nobody ever said they would. What they need to do is play at some sort of similar level, which considering that 18 of the players we usually see in the lineup are still available, is more than possible. In fact it's likely.

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What makes you think that the other playoff teams in the NHL aren't gritty, or don't give 100% effort? Did they just coast their way to the playoffs? Did they win their playoff spot in a sweepstakes? Did they send in a few box tops from Cheerios?
Nobody ever said they didn't or aren't. But there are a few that still don't have the talent the Kings have in their lineup.

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Maybe they will just keep on winning. I hope so. But, for the nth time, I just don't see it. I don't see a team that's scraped into the playoff race on a hope and a shootout WITH Kopitar, a team that's made their living winning 2-1 games WITH Kopitar ... that this team will suddenly become a World-beater WITHOUT him.
They don't have to be a world-beater. They have to keep winning 2-1 games. By any standard I wouldn't call this team with Kopitar a world-beater, I'd say they're a 2-1 team which they still are and will still have to do to win. Are they suddenly going to start leaking goals? Do they not have the players to play this brand of hockey anymore?

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I don't see the team suddenly kicking ass after losing Kopitar, making no callups, and inserting Kevin ****ing Westgarth into the lineup on a permanent basis.
This is the crappy part. But if you're looking to support a team that's an ass-kicker you might as well wait until this entire generation of Kings retires because they aren't going to be ass-kickers and world-beaters that's for sure. If they're ever going to reach their goals it's going to be through 2-1 hockey.


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Old
03-29-2011, 01:16 PM
  #32
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People need to relax, Bud will get his shot at some point. Or maybe he never will, one thing is for certain, the fans don't control that.

Westy is fine for the Oilers, The coaching staff probably wants to see how everyone responds before another callup.

That's fine with me. What I really want to see is Poni and Simmer start scoring more.

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03-29-2011, 04:01 PM
  #33
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What I really want to see is Poni and Simmer start scoring more.
A much more logical place to look for offense than Manchester.

Offensively, these two have been HUGE disappointments this season.

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03-29-2011, 04:12 PM
  #34
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A much more logical place to look for offense than Manchester.

Offensively, these two have been HUGE disappointments this season.
Eh, I don't think it's fair to ask that of Poni. He's done basically everything we could have asked of him this year, except offensively, and that's a trade-off I'll take from time to time on a team. I love what he brings to the team that doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

Simmonds on the other hand, is a different story. He's shown flashes of brilliance all season long, but that's about it. I think we all expected him to be past the point in his career already where we are satisfied with flashes of brilliance. He, among others, needs to step it up.

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03-29-2011, 04:22 PM
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A much more logical place to look for offense than Manchester.

Offensively, these two have been HUGE disappointments this season.
... There is virtually no difference in Simmonds' goal scoring from last season to this one, despite being shuttled from line to line:

Simmonds, 2009-10: 16 goals in 1129 minutes played (0.85 per 60 minutes)
Simmonds, 2010-11: 13 goals in 982 minutes played (0.79 per 60 minutes)

Wayne's assists are a different matter, though much of that can be attributed to Handzus's decline from 20 goals last season to 11, for starters.

As for Ponikarovsky, it's a little tough to expect offense from someone who's been plugged into a predominantly defensive role, and has played about the same amount of ice time (681 minutes) as Brad Richardson (700 minutes).

Saying those two are "HUGE disappointments" really sounds like scapegoating. What I'm proposing might or might not help the team, but I can assure you that scapegoating will certainly not.

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03-29-2011, 04:30 PM
  #36
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Eh, I don't think it's fair to ask that of Poni. He's done basically everything we could have asked of him this year, except offensively, and that's a trade-off I'll take from time to time on a team. I love what he brings to the team that doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

Simmonds on the other hand, is a different story. He's shown flashes of brilliance all season long, but that's about it. I think we all expected him to be past the point in his career already where we are satisfied with flashes of brilliance. He, among others, needs to step it up.
I agree about Poni in that I love what he has done. I only mean offensively. Otherwise I love his play. Keep it up and pot some goals.

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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... There is virtually no difference in Simmonds' goal scoring from last season to this one, despite being shuttled from line to line:

Simmonds, 2009-10: 16 goals in 1129 minutes played (0.85 per 60 minutes)
Simmonds, 2010-11: 13 goals in 982 minutes played (0.79 per 60 minutes)

Wayne's assists are a different matter, though much of that can be attributed to Handzus's decline from 20 goals last season to 11, for starters.

As for Ponikarovsky, it's a little tough to expect offense from someone who's been plugged into a predominantly defensive role, and has played about the same amount of ice time (681 minutes) as Brad Richardson (700 minutes).

Saying those two are "HUGE disappointments" really sounds like scapegoating. What I'm proposing might or might not help the team, but I can assure you that scapegoating will certainly not.
Scapegoating? I simply want some production from these guys.

Toss in Zus as well, they all need to contribute more now. That's obvious and the two most obvious places to look on the team as Poni and Simmonds. Simmonds may be at almost the same pace as last season, but what happened to expecting young players to improve year to year? We had all hoped Simmonds would kick it up notch from where he was last year, and he has regressed a little bit instead. Maybe he simply isn't capable of anything more than last year, but I believe he has the talent to contribute more offensively.

As for Zus, well, yeah I want more from him, but he is on the downside so I prefer to look towards guys in their prime (Poni) or young and supposed to be getting better all the time (Simmonds) than to a guy who only be getting worse from here on out (Zus).

I really don't understand where the scapegoating comment comes from. I didn't say they are the reason we don't score enough, I said if we are looking for more offense, those two are the first places you look. Offensively, everyone expected more from both of these guys coming into the season. Expect one thing, get something less = disappointment. Sorry if you don't care for or agree with the qualifier of HUGE.

I'm surprised that for someone who is such a huge Wayne supporter that you don't want to see more out of him offensively. Of all the people who should expect it from him, I would think it would be you. You are always advocating giving him more ice time, saying he can score more, so why now, when the chips are down for the team, are you scapegoating someone (Zus) as an excuse for it not being Wayne we put some more of the offensive brunt upon?

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03-29-2011, 04:36 PM
  #37
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If Crawford were coaching this team, losing Kopitar would be a death sentence.

Murray's built the team around the back-end, not the front. Losing Kopitar and Williams sucks, but this team with the defense it has firing on all cylinders can win without them.

Some additional perspective: http://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/20...seen-them-play

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03-29-2011, 04:39 PM
  #38
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A much more logical place to look for offense than Manchester.

Offensively, these two have been HUGE disappointments this season.
I agree but expecting Pony to provide offence at this point to me seems unrealistic. He has had the season that I expected him to have. We knew going in that he wouldn't come close to replacing Frolov but that doesn't mean that enough time on the 2nd line might not allow him a better opportunity to provide a bit more scoring.

To me Poni hasn't been a disappointments because he has done exactly what I said he would do back when we signed him.

Simmonds looks like he takes some nights off and has been a disappointment to me this year but who he is playing with and the amount of ice time could have something to do it.

Some of it can go to his center but not all of it.

To me though that is why you call a kid or two up. Take a night off Simmonds and you might lose allot of ice time. Clifford did allot to endear himself to his team mates both on game ice and in the locker room. He was so enthusiastic that it became infectious and that is what I am hoping Moller can do as well.

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03-29-2011, 04:41 PM
  #39
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I'm surprised that for someone who is such a huge Wayne supporter that you don't want to see more out of him offensively. Of all the people who should expect it from him, I would think it would be you. You are always advocating giving him more ice time, saying he can score more, so why now, when the chips are down for the team, are you scapegoating someone (Zus) as an excuse for it not being Wayne we put some more of the offensive brunt upon?
... I'm not scapegoating Handzus at all. He's doing everything he can at this point, giving 100%, etc. He's just a guy who's in decline; he's getting older, it happens.

I've said all season that Simmonds needed to be in the top 6, but it's obvious that Murray doesn't want him there. It's total B.S. to give someone a role on the top line or on the PP, and if it doesn't work after one game or a couple periods, to pull him off of it - but that's exactly what's happened to Wayne this season on more than one occasion. Now, he's on a line that is expected to help shut down the opposition, with a center that's going through an expected and understandable decline due to advancing age, and without the offensively gifted left wing he had on his line much of last season (Frolov). Sure, I'd love to see Simmonds score more goals, but it's plain to see why he isn't. I'd say that my disappointment with Simmonds has far more to do with how he's been used more than anything else.

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03-29-2011, 04:47 PM
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I agree with you guys that a call up could infuse life into the team.

However I agree with the team in not making an immediate move. Calm must be the initial message from management after this injury. It must be an attitude of "this sucks, but we soldier on and believe in who we have here."

After a game or two, seeing how the dynamic of the team changes, then you make the call up. If the energy is good but the offense needs a jolt, you call up a scorer. If their is a malaise around the team, then you call up a spark plug. If you need some more stability down the middle, you call up CLiche or Elkins.

I would have been annoyed if they made a rash decision and called up one or two guys immediately. It sends a message of panic. Moller was a different story (as would Schenn or Loktionov be now if they were healthy), because when Williams went down there was the obvious choice. Earned his time, plays the right kind of game, etc.

No one even closely resembles Kopitar in any way that we could call up. So you play and see what kind of player from Manchester would suit you best.

Or better yet, the team steps up and shows us they don't need anymore help. They don't need an injection of life. That's my ideal situation and what you see if you can get before calling up someone willy-nilly because your attitude is that we need anything so long as its something.

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03-29-2011, 05:07 PM
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Yes, these injuries (timing) for kopi and jw just suck. I have to side with JT on this. I have always said, this team lacks playmakers. Kopi and jw were by far the best playmakers on the team. My biggest concern now has to be who can step up to fill those 2 huge holes? I don't see anyone on the kings who have the skill to feed the puck to our goal scoreres.

The wounded animal theory might kick in on a team d approach which Might be our only shot through the first round. But comparing the situation to Pitt, is not really close. They still have staal, Neal, kovalev which is still far more skill than the kings without Kopi and jw.

Hopefully, they make me eat crow.

With lokti injured and schenn unavailable, I don't see a reason for us to add another grinder from Manchester. I would give kozun a shot over anyone else just because he has more all around skill than holloway. If TM goes conservative and turtles the rest of the way, then I fear it wouldn't be worth it at all to call anyone up

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03-29-2011, 05:49 PM
  #42
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I agree with you guys that a call up could infuse life into the team.

However I agree with the team in not making an immediate move. Calm must be the initial message from management after this injury. It must be an attitude of "this sucks, but we soldier on and believe in who we have here."

After a game or two, seeing how the dynamic of the team changes, then you make the call up. If the energy is good but the offense needs a jolt, you call up a scorer. If their is a malaise around the team, then you call up a spark plug. If you need some more stability down the middle, you call up CLiche or Elkins.

I would have been annoyed if they made a rash decision and called up one or two guys immediately. It sends a message of panic. Moller was a different story (as would Schenn or Loktionov be now if they were healthy), because when Williams went down there was the obvious choice. Earned his time, plays the right kind of game, etc.

No one even closely resembles Kopitar in any way that we could call up. So you play and see what kind of player from Manchester would suit you best.

Or better yet, the team steps up and shows us they don't need anymore help. They don't need an injection of life. That's my ideal situation and what you see if you can get before calling up someone willy-nilly because your attitude is that we need anything so long as its something.

Yep.

I said it in an earlier post that I am alright with taking a wait and see approach before we bring up a kid or two. No need to take more then we need from Manch which is in great shape to do some damage in the playoffs until we find out what we need and or if we need it.

That said if we discover over the next two games or so that the team doesn't respond in a positive manner then I am all for bringing up any and every prospect possible to fill the need.

As to who we call up from manch I don't think that anyone expects us to bring up another Kopi or anyone to replace him, if they do then they haven't spent enough time looking at our prospects that said, bringing up one or two key players can allow us the ability to maintain as much skilled depth on the big club as possible while making any moves we might need to cover up for Kopi as best we can.

Bring up Holloway and it gives us more flexibility as to where we play Lewis while maintaining skill and talent on the fourth line (as an imperfect example). Stoll and Zues are being moved up (sort of) and so is Lewis leaving Richardson to cover one of the center spots but Holloway could fill Richie's spot on the fourth line and do it at a high enough skill level to where we won't be missing much.

My point would be that if the team doesn't show that it can absorb the loss of Kopitar and maintain its ability to be competitive at a high level then by calling up a couple of key players that we might be able to make additional line changes that could help us do so.

Who I would call up by name isn't as important as to who I would be asking them to replace on the Kings.

We have a few players available to us (potentially) who aren't playing for any team right now two of which deserve a serious look in Josh Turnbull and Garret Roe (I would leave Nik D alone for another season) and it is looking like we might also be able to add Linden Vey onto the list within the next week as well though whether he goes to Manchester to fill the loss of Moller or anyone else we might call up to the big club is open for determination.

There are also additional options available to us but they aren't important to my point and that is that while I agree that we should wait to see if we need to call anyone up that it is also important that we have a very specific plan of what our line up is going to look like before we do so that we can do the best for all of the parties involved (the teams and the players).

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