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congrats D-Steps!

View Poll Results: What will Derek Stepan develop into?
An All-Star 26 19.26%
A nice first liner 38 28.15%
A great second liner 68 50.37%
An ok second liner, just a little better than now 3 2.22%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-26-2011, 06:03 PM
  #26
NY Lito
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Some of the players you mentioned are pretty close to their peak (Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal). They are already in their mid-20s, with several seasons under their belt. Dubinsky will hit close to 60 points this year and Callahan is on pace for 70. How much more will they improve?

The real improvement will come from rookies like Stepan, McD and Sauer, as well as prospects like Kreider, Thomas, Werek.

But none of that will happen next year. The team will not hit its peak for another 3 seasons. That's when it's worth signing UFAs.
Yea why try to make an impact signing when we have the King in his prime. I'd rather wait till he's 33 and banged up a bit more.

I'm not 100% for Brad Richards or for any long term expensive contracts, but I would go as to say that as soon as next year's playoffs this team could make a serious run. You're seriously doubting the growth and talent of this team. Waiting for 3 years is wasting Henrik's time and ability.

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03-26-2011, 06:26 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by NY Lito View Post
Yea why try to make an impact signing when we have the King in his prime. I'd rather wait till he's 33 and banged up a bit more.

I'm not 100% for Brad Richards or for any long term expensive contracts, but I would go as to say that as soon as next year's playoffs this team could make a serious run. You're seriously doubting the growth and talent of this team. Waiting for 3 years is wasting Henrik's time and ability.
I totally agree. Henrik is one of the best goalies, if not the best goalie, in the world right now. Also, the success of the team reflects the success of Lundqvist more than any other player. When he is amazing they're unbeatable, when he's having an off night they can look ridiculous. I think that Dubi, Callahan, AA, Staal, Sauer, McD, Stepan, Zuccarello and even Del Zotto still have a LOT of room to improve also.

I don't think its an issue of 4 or 5 years with these guys. Next year can be a really big year for this team if they could add another true scoring threat. I'm not sure Richards is the best idea because of the lengthy contract he's sure to want. On the other hand, a player like him could make this team really hard to play against as soon as next year.

I think Stepan can be a solid first line player. I wasn't expecting goal scoring like this coming from him this year and like others have said, his goals are smart plays as a result of thinking the game better and/or faster than his opponents. Thats a rare skill to have no matter how old you are. If Richards doesn't come here or they don't trade for an upper echelon center before next season Stepan has to be the guy for the first line.

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03-26-2011, 06:38 PM
  #28
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Yea why try to make an impact signing when we have the King in his prime. I'd rather wait till he's 33 and banged up a bit more.
In 2-3 years, Lundqvist will be 31-32, not 33. But it does not matter. Goalies start later and finish later too. Goalies don't have power forwards slam into them. They don't get cross checked.

A 31/32 year old goalie is still in his prime. Goalies start to slide at the age of 35, give or take a year.

The time for us to win will be when Hank will be when he's 31-35 years old. Barring a freak injury, he'll still be playing as well as he's playing right now.

If we sign Brad, we won't have the money to resign our younger players, nor to sign/trade for someone who may be needed to plug the final hole in the line up.

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03-26-2011, 07:28 PM
  #29
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In 2-3 years, Lundqvist will be 31-32, not 33. But it does not matter. Goalies start later and finish later too. Goalies don't have power forwards slam into them. They don't get cross checked.

A 31/32 year old goalie is still in his prime. Goalies start to slide at the age of 35, give or take a year.

The time for us to win will be when Hank will be when he's 31-35 years old. Barring a freak injury, he'll still be playing as well as he's playing right now.

If we sign Brad, we won't have the money to resign our younger players, nor to sign/trade for someone who may be needed to plug the final hole in the line up.
I'm just going to throw out the names and ages (of when they won it) of the Goalies to win the Vezina in the past 10 or so years

Ryan Miller 30
Tim Thomas 34
Fatty Brodeur 35
Fatty Brodeur 34
Mikka Kiprusoff 30
Brodeur 32
Brodeur 31
Hasek 36
Kolzig 29/30

I'm going hope Hank is elite for around 5 more years.

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03-26-2011, 07:37 PM
  #30
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I just hope that people on here dont **** on Stepan if he goes through sophomore slump next season same way MDZ is going through this season.

But yeah congrats on a 20-goal rookie season kid.

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03-26-2011, 07:58 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
In 2-3 years, Lundqvist will be 31-32, not 33. But it does not matter. Goalies start later and finish later too. Goalies don't have power forwards slam into them. They don't get cross checked.

A 31/32 year old goalie is still in his prime. Goalies start to slide at the age of 35, give or take a year.

The time for us to win will be when Hank will be when he's 31-35 years old. Barring a freak injury, he'll still be playing as well as he's playing right now.

If we sign Brad, we won't have the money to resign our younger players, nor to sign/trade for someone who may be needed to plug the final hole in the line up.
I understand your logic of thinking, but we can keep our younger players while still acquiring a big money contract. And the fact of the matter is, chances are we're not going to be able to keep all of our young players due to cap reasons down the line anyway.

Also, we can win Hank now. We're 1-2 great players away. BR could be one of them. To just wait a few years, lock up all our younger players, and then see is wasting his time, and could potentially be disastrous (what if AA has hit his ceiling and Stepan doesn't progress much more? Kreider's a bust? etc.)

You can't just assume in a few years he'll still be great and then we can make it. What if no great players are on the market/trading block that season? Another season wasting the King away. He gets hurt in 2 years? Then the prior 2 years were a waste.

I'm not pro-Richards at all nor am I a "WIN NOW THROW MONEY EVERYWHERE" guy, but I would hope that if an elite player wants to come here (for his market value/contract) in a position of need, we do it. We need offense, the last few games has shown that greatly. Defense has been solid. Adding an elite center makes us contenders. Why adding that now and having the kids grow around that player as opposed to waiting for the kids to grow and add him then makes no sense.

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03-26-2011, 08:06 PM
  #32
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Midway through Brad's 7-year contract, he'll be doing his best Drury impersonation.
This is completely wrong. Brad is a player whose heavily reliant upon his skills and hockey IQ. Not blinding speed or athleticism. So saying when he's 34 he will be only good for faceoffs is BS.

And to say Drury in his prime was even close to Richards in terms of pure talent is a joke.

I understand you don't want Richards or any expensive contracts but c'mon.

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03-27-2011, 10:23 AM
  #33
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Congrats D-Step!!! 20 goals is a great rookie year. Keep up the hard work!!

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03-27-2011, 10:30 AM
  #34
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20 goals is fantastic fo a rookie. He'll be a great 2nd liner. Rangers are pretty set on 2nd line young talent with Stepas and Artie. I think Boyle but with so many C's I think he should move to the wing full time and use his size next yr. Sign Richards as a #1 C and man this team will be solid

It also gives me hope on Kreider and/or Hagelin stepping in next yr. The college kids Steps and McD have been great

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03-27-2011, 02:28 PM
  #35
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He's mini-mancrush to me

Gabby = mancrush (though this yr, not so much)

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03-27-2011, 02:53 PM
  #36
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Been following Stepan's career very closely since the day he was drafted. I'm extremely proud that he his a member of The New York Rangers. Kid has a bright future on Broadway.

I was at the game yesterday in Boston. The one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb is Stepan's skating. He skates in a very odd way in regard to his strides, and his posture needs work. He looks to be using a lot of energy to create the foot-speed he currently has with minimal results. I'm hoping the coaching staff will recommend that he works on his skating this off-season like they did with Boyle.

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03-27-2011, 04:22 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
I just hope that people on here dont **** on Stepan if he goes through sophomore slump next season same way MDZ is going through this season.

But yeah congrats on a 20-goal rookie season kid.

Step is smarter than MDZ. But look for MDZ to recover big time next season. He'll hit 30-40 points in 2011-12.

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03-27-2011, 05:00 PM
  #38
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I understand your logic of thinking, but we can keep our younger players while still acquiring a big money contract.
For another year maybe, not much longer. Plus, are you sure you are acquiring the right player today? How do you know what the need will be when the team is hitting its peak in a couple of years?

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And the fact of the matter is, chances are we're not going to be able to keep all of our young players due to cap reasons down the line anyway.
This contradicts the first statement. And you don't make things worse just because you can't make them perfect. It's one thing if we have to trade one kid who's about to get his pay-day. It's another if we are in a desperate mode trying to get rid of 3-4 players. In the first case, we can still get full value in inexpensive young players and draft picks. In the second case, we are stuck trading Jagr for Beech.

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Also, we can win Hank now. We're 1-2 great players away.
If these players are Crosby and Green, yes. If these players are Brad and Kaberle, not so much.

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BR could be one of them. To just wait a few years, lock up all our younger players, and then see is wasting his time, and could potentially be disastrous (what if AA has hit his ceiling and Stepan doesn't progress much more? Kreider's a bust? etc.)
It's not a waste of time. You have to see what you have. If these players remain where they are, then we at least know that they will be low-paid hustlers, and we can go out and sign someone at that point. Someone who actually fits into the scheme.

The fact that these players are unknown is reason to wait, not to sign the first marquee free agent we can get our hands on.

You strike iron while its hot, and it's not hot yet.

In a couple of years, if the youth will progress more or less as expected, you will see me advocating youth-for-age trades. Why? Because iron will be hot then.

I will get hammered for it on this board by everyone who is just in love with youth and people will claim that I'm impatient, etc. - just the opposite of what they say about me now.

But the reality is that I don't love either youth or age - I love Stanley Cups. We ain't winning now, with or without Brad.

Wait a couple years. Let's have the kids mature and then we can go for the Cup when we actually have a reasonable chance of winnable.

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You can't just assume in a few years he'll still be great and then we can make it.
You have to go with odds. Today, the team isn't winning the Cup. Brad will be the difference between being a first round underdog and a first round favorite. But in the second round and every round after that, we'll again be underdogs.

The odds are just in our favor today.

In a couple of years, Lundqvist will likely be as healthy as today, and more (playoff) experienced.

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What if no great players are on the market/trading block that season?
This is youthful thinking right there. "Oh my God, what if today is the only opportunity?!" Every year there are good UFAs and/or good players like Heatley and Kovalchuk available via trade. I don't remember a single year when no good player was available through either free agency or trade or both.

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Another season wasting the King away. He gets hurt in 2 years? Then the prior 2 years were a waste.
You are basing this on the Rangers having a chance to win today. Obviously if they had a chance to win today, I would be all for getting Brad. Nobody wants to pass on a chance to win another Stanley Cup.

The issue is that we are not winning the Cup next year, so we are wasting nothing.

Brad may bring us another round win in the playoffs, but who cares? Do you remember how far the Rangers went in 2006? 1996? 1991? And even if you remember, does it really matter anymore?

Ultimately the only thing that matters is the Stanley Cup. Everything else will become a gray memory that nobody cares about.

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I'm not pro-Richards at all nor am I a "WIN NOW THROW MONEY EVERYWHERE" guy, but I would hope that if an elite player wants to come here (for his market value/contract) in a position of need, we do it.
Except that we don't know what our position/style of need will be when we are ready to contend.

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We need offense, the last few games has shown that greatly.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Kreider becomes a point per game producer and Thomas becomes a superstar goal scorer. He didn't score 100+ points and over 55 goals this year for no reason.

How do you know Step won't be an elite center? He's played carefully in his rookie season, but how do you know he's not the 80-point center we need? The odds are better of that than that Lundqvist will suffer a career-ruining injury.

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Defense has been solid.
Using your earlier logic about Lundqvist getting injured, Staal can collide with Girardi, and the team's defense will suddenly be terrible.

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Adding an elite center makes us contenders.
Only if you think that there are 10 teams that are contenders. If you think only 3-4 teams are real contenders and the rest are over-optimistic pretenders, no way does Brad make us a contender.

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Why adding that now and having the kids grow around that player as opposed to waiting for the kids to grow and add him then makes no sense.
You don't build around free agents, hoping the kids will fill the rest of the holes. Ask Neil Smith, he'll tell you about his strategy from 1995 to 2000.

All the top teams get a core that is homegrown, then add a few players.

Everyone remembers Messier now, but by the time he arrived, we already had (in the NHL or in the system) Leetch, Richter, Zubov, Kovalev, Nemchinov, Amonte, Weight, Turcotte, Patrick, Nicholls, etc.

Neil Smith flipped a bunch of them, but had he not made a move for Messier, I think the team would still probably have won the Cup.

C: Weight, Nicholls, Turcotte, Nemchinov
LW: Graves, Zamuner, Kris King, Gilbert/Domi
RW: Gartner, Kovalev, Steven Rice, Kocur

Leetch - Patrick
Zubov - Lowe
Karpovtsev - Wells

Richter
Healy


I get that not the whole team is homegrown, but this is about what it would have looked like without most of the major trades for Messier, Beukeboom, Larmer, Tikkanen, Matteau, Noonan, Anderson, etc. (Graves was seen as a rather minor acquisition of a third liner at the time.)

I say this team wins the Stanley Cup sooner or later, and without Neil's stupid trades, it would probably have won more than one Stanley Cup.


Last edited by Beacon: 03-28-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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Old
03-28-2011, 09:18 AM
  #39
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Hopefully many more to come!!!

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03-28-2011, 11:55 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
You don't build around free agents, hoping the kids will fill the rest of the holes. Ask Neil Smith, he'll tell you about his strategy from 1995 to 2000.

All the top teams get a core that is homegrown, then add a few players.

Everyone remembers Messier now, but by the time he arrived, we already had (in the NHL or in the system) Leetch, Richter, Zubov, Kovalev, Nemchinov, Amonte, Weight, Turcotte, Patrick, Nicholls, etc.

Neil Smith flipped a bunch of them, but had he not made a move for Messier, I think the team would still probably have won the Cup.

C: Weight, Nicholls, Turcotte, Nemichov
LW: Graves, Zamuner, Kris King, Gilbert/Domi
RW: Gartner, Kovalev, Steven Rice, Kocur

Leetch - Patrick
Zubov - Lowe
Karpovtsev - Wells

Richter
Healy


I get that not the whole team is homegrown, but this is about what it would have looked like without most of the major trades for Messier, Beukeboom, Larmer, Tikkanen, Matteau, Noonan, Anderson, etc. (Graves was seen as a rather minor acquisition of a third liner at the time.)

I say this team wins the Stanley Cup sooner or later, and without Neil's stupid trades, it would probably have won more than one Stanley Cup.
I just want to start by saying you're making a very coherent argument, even if I disagree with you.

First off: I agree, you don't build a team around free agents, you add them to complement your core of young players. I was originally against signing Brad Richards, but as the season has gone on, I have become quite strongly pro-Richards (provided he's signed to a contract that is salary-cap sane). I think it is more important to lock down Cally and Dubi in the long term, but I think that the best scope to improve this team for the next few seasons is to add a talented playmaker to play with Gabby.

D-Step is a very talented kid, but he's not going to be a good 1st-line centre next season, nor the season after that. I disagree that the Rangers can sit still for the next 2-3 seasons. Sitting still doesn't exist in hockey -- if you don't advance from one season to the next, whether that is from adding young talent or complementary free agents, you stagnate and decline.

The Rangers also lack veteran leadership. As much as they get on-ice leadership from Cally, Dubi, Staal and Girardi, there's only one Stanley Cup winner on the team: Chris Drury. The talking heads in hockey are always talking about the importance of having players who have been to the Big Show to guide those who haven't -- some may disagree, but I don't think this is a load of hot air.

I guess I disagree that the Rangers are not ready to take big step forward. I don't actually see the signing of a guy like Richards as changing the face of the team -- the core would remain Dubi, Cally, Staal, Lundqvist, etc. I think he could be a good complement to Gaborik, and give the Rangers really effective top two lines (note I don't say first and second lines).

As for Stepan (see, I am posting on-topic!), I think that adding Richards would not hurt him, either. He'll be in good shape to continue to develop, other teams won't key in on him, because they'll be watching Richards and Dubi, and, provided he stays with the Rangers for the next several years, he'll be ready to take up ice-time from Richards as Richards starts to get older.

Don't get me wrong -- if Richards demands a ludicrous contract, the Rangers can still improve without him. I think that he ticks a lot of the right boxes for this team as a good UFA signing, whoever else is or is not available out there.


And going way off-topic (this would make a great separate thread): I don't think the Rangers would have won the Stanley Cup without the Nicholls/Messier trade. No way. The lineup you posted, in my opinion, would have done great in the regular season, then gotten bounced in the playoffs every year.

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03-28-2011, 02:50 PM
  #41
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And going way off-topic (this would make a great separate thread): I don't think the Rangers would have won the Stanley Cup without the Nicholls/Messier trade. No way. The lineup you posted, in my opinion, would have done great in the regular season, then gotten bounced in the playoffs every year.

It's not this trade alone for me. There were others as well. Obviously if you flip Messier for Nicholls, the Rangers are screwed.

But then you consider that Glenn Anderson was useless while Gartner was great.

You consider that Weight and Amonte were far superior to Tikkanen, Matteau and Noonan.

In trading Gartner, Weight and Amonte for Tikkanen, Matteau, Noonan and Anderson, they dealt 3 first liners for 4 third liners. Amonte struggled that year, but he was almost a point per game producer the previous season. And Weight was almost a ppg player in 93-94 too.

I think a team that has Nicholls, Weight, Amonte and Gartner is superior to a team that has Messier, Matteau, Noonan and Anderson.

Also not particularly excited about trading Patrick+Turcotte for Larmer.

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03-28-2011, 03:02 PM
  #42
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20 goals as a rook. hopefully the first of MANY 20 goal seasons in your career.

am i alone in thinking that this kid will be rocking an 'A' within the next 5 years?
He's a future captain for this team. I said it before he came to the Rangers and I'll say it again. In his late 20's early 30's he may very well be rocking a C

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03-29-2011, 04:20 PM
  #43
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Some interesting facts:

The last 2nd Round Draft pick to put up at least a 20-20 season in his rookie year: Paul Stastny

The last 2nd Round Draft pick to put up 40 points in his rookie year: Brandon Dubinsky

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03-29-2011, 04:24 PM
  #44
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Still can't believe that Stastny was a second round pick.

If Step can become as good as that he'll be huge for this club.

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03-30-2011, 09:46 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by ostrichsized View Post
Some interesting facts:

The last 2nd Round Draft pick to put up at least a 20-20 season in his rookie year: Paul Stastny

The last 2nd Round Draft pick to put up 40 points in his rookie year: Brandon Dubinsky
True, but Stastny put up 78 points his rookie year, which is incredible really. He was a year older than Stepan is this year though, so maybe next year?

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03-30-2011, 10:00 AM
  #46
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It's not this trade alone for me. There were others as well. Obviously if you flip Messier for Nicholls, the Rangers are screwed.

But then you consider that Glenn Anderson was useless while Gartner was great.

You consider that Weight and Amonte were far superior to Tikkanen, Matteau and Noonan.

In trading Gartner, Weight and Amonte for Tikkanen, Matteau, Noonan and Anderson, they dealt 3 first liners for 4 third liners. Amonte struggled that year, but he was almost a point per game producer the previous season. And Weight was almost a ppg player in 93-94 too.

I think a team that has Nicholls, Weight, Amonte and Gartner is superior to a team that has Messier, Matteau, Noonan and Anderson.

Also not particularly excited about trading Patrick+Turcotte for Larmer.
Can't help but feel like you're playing this weird game of hindsight fantasy hockey here. There's absolutely no way to deduce that we would've won in '94 and "multiple" times after from any of this.

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03-30-2011, 11:07 AM
  #47
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Can't help but feel like you're playing this weird game of hindsight fantasy hockey here. There's absolutely no way to deduce that we would've won in '94 and "multiple" times after from any of this.
Yeah, not to mention the fact that Patrick was done as an offensive force when we got him. Sometimes there's more to it than the numbers. Without Messier, we're still hearing about 1940. Weight, Amonte, and Gartner were all first liners. Messier was an all-time great.

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03-30-2011, 12:52 PM
  #48
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Playing with Gaborik many times this year I believe he's already a great 2nd liner and an all-star this year. This poll is outdated.

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03-30-2011, 01:02 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
Yeah, not to mention the fact that Patrick was done as an offensive force when we got him. Sometimes there's more to it than the numbers. Without Messier, we're still hearing about 1940. Weight, Amonte, and Gartner were all first liners. Messier was an all-time great.
No doubt, Messier was the proven winner, veteran, and hired gun the Rangers brought in to lead to the promised land. Just like they'll do with Richards this off season. The difference is that this year they've got a management team who is building a core to win with rather than looking to import one from Edmonton. So with that, we'll be competitive for a long time.

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